Universalism...why not?

[JacksBratt]

And what better way to glorify Him and His sacrifice than to accept that He might be 100% successful in executing it, as would be fitting for a King of King and Lord of Lords?

So, your going to glorify Christ by waiting until you die to be saved at the time of your judgement?

So, what does that say about His death and resurrection?

What about this:

Matthew 10:33King James Version (KJV)

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Seriously check this out:

To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell. Believers in Christ, on the other hand, are not judged by the books of works, but their names are found written in another book—the “Lamb’s Book of Life” (Revelation 21:27). These are the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus, and they alone will be allowed to enter heaven.

From: Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?

 

[JacksBratt]

It's not about us "waiting and seeing"---it's more that we have greater hope that "all will be well" (as Julian of Norwich wrote) and that God WILL accomplish His desires in due time.

That certainly is a "greater Hope" than even the hope that we have in the fact that we will be saved by the grace of God through the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

Now we have people hoping that God is so kind and merciful that He will give them a second chance, Postmortem salvation. Not by faith, but, by the knowledge that all the bible said was true.

As I said before, there are no atheists after death. At that time all the knowledge of all time will be given to you. You will not need faith. Faith will be history. As will be your chance to then be granted salvation. Because, at this time every soul will knell and admit that Christ is the messiah. Every soul.

 

[ClementofA]

What about this:

Matthew 10:33King James Version (KJV)

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Peter denied the Lord 3 times & still was saved & became an apostle.

 

[ClementofA]

Seriously check this out:

To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell. Believers in Christ, on the other hand, are not judged by the books of works, but their names are found written in another book—the “Lamb’s Book of Life” (Revelation 21:27). These are the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus, and they alone will be allowed to enter heaven.

Beyond that is a time when God will become "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) and every man will be "in Christ" (v.22, Romans 5:12-20, Col.1:18-20, Phil. 2:9-11, etc).

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The gates into the New Jerusalem are never shut.

 

[The Times]

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)"

As was shown before, Origen sees "aion-ion/eternal fire"[lit. eon-ian fire] as corrective!

Eon-ian just speaks of duration, whether short or long, according to the subject and context.

"The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)."

Eternal fires are the spiritual application after those cities experienced the physical application. The word Eon-Ian in conjunction with God's judgement by his Justice Arm, are not half measures used as a reminder of disciplinary action, serving as a deterance to man.

Jude 7 clearly describes the spiritual application in the present tense for those who have faced the physical application and also for those who will face a similar fate. Notice that Jude is speaking to born again believers who count themselves dead to the flesh, so a physical punitive temporal punishment is not a deterant to fear God, rather the afterlife spiritual application is the deterant, which results in separation from God for all eternity and so that death, is the second death, that has no redemption.

 

[ClementofA]

Eternal fires are the spiritual application after those cities experienced the physical application. The word Eon-Ian in conjunction with God's judgement by his Justice Arm, are not half measures used as a reminder of disciplinary action, serving as a deterance to man.

Jude 7 clearly describes the spiritual application in the present tense for those who have faced the physical application and also for those who will face a similar fate. Notice that Jude is speaking to born again believers who count themselves dead to the flesh, so a physical punitive temporal punishment is not a deterant to fear God, rather the afterlife spiritual application is the deterant, which results in separation from God for all eternity and so that death, is the second death, that has no redemption.

Actually the "cities" are "the example" or "specimen":

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."


You can go there (in the Middle East) & see they were destroyed. That's the "example".

You won't find any "eternal" fire there because it went out long ago. It ended. Just as the so-called "eternal punishment" of unbelievers will end.

Jesus isn't a sadist. God is love.

Jesus said to love your enemies. Is He a hypocrite?

Has His love run dry? Or does He practice tough love with corrective punishment for the wicked & unbelievers?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[The Times]

The "eternal" fire that burnt Sodom went out long ago. It ended. It wasn't "eternal". Neither is the so-called eternal punishment (correction) of unbelievers.


Jude CLV
5 Now I am intending to remind you, you who once are aware of all, that the Lord, when saving the people out of the land of Egypt, secondly destroys those who believe not." 6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)"

As was shown before, Origen sees "aion-ion/eternal fire"[lit. eon-ian fire] as corrective!
Eon-ian just speaks of duration, whether short or long, according to the subject and context.

"The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)."

The Lord's destruction of Sodom etc purified the human race alive on earth from wickedness. Thus also will he do with individual sinners hereafter.

***************************************

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42) T or F

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV) T or F

Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) T or F

Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47) T or F

"Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE." (Heb. 2:9) T or F

"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) T or F

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37) T or F

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11) (Remember, answer OUT LOUD True or False to each of these statements.)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11) T or F

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22) T or F

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) T or F

The Gospel is "good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people." (Luke 2:10) T or F

Believers in Christ are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) T or F

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2) T or F

"No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." (John 6:44) T or F

"As God gave Jesus authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him." (John 17:2) T or F

The Father "has given ALL THINGS into Jesus' hands." (John 13:3) T or F

Jesus "was the true light which gives light to EVERY MAN who come into the world." (John 1:9) (Remember, answer out loud True or False to each of these statements.)

"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN." (Rom. 5:18) T or F

Jesus is "able even to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself." (Phil. 3:21) T or F

Jesus came "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:10, 11) T or F

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) T or F

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

You need a lot of work on your exegesis. Start from one context and build your thesis from there. What you have quoted above are several different context. I can't correct you on every mistake you make. Please go back and read my posts and understand that eternal fires are after the physically application of death. The person who will face the eternal fires is being warned by Jesus, not those who remain alive, meaning it is not an example of a disciplinary action for those who remain alive, but is a warning to the subject who will personally experience the eternal fires of torment, which is the eternal separation from God. To those that remain alive, they are told, you do not know when you die, that is the physical application, so be vigilant in faith, so that after you die you can be granted eternal life and unity with the Creator Jesus Christ.

We as Christians are looking up for the blessed hope that one day after we die, we are reunited with our crowned Monarch Jesus Christ, as one of many Angels.

 

[mkgal1]

So, your going to glorify Christ by waiting until you die to be saved at the time of your judgement?

Where is this idea of "waiting " coming from and why is it being repeated?

 

[Rajni]

So, your going to glorify Christ by waiting until you die to be saved at the time of your judgement?

How do you conclude that?

I trusted Christ for my salvation 29 years ago.
I then trusted Christ for everyone's salvation 11 years ago.


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[Dartman]

God is, and will be, 100% successful in keeping His word.
God's word is;
Rom 2:1-13 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There are many, many such texts. Teaching the reward of the righteous = life, but the reward of the wicked = destruction.

On the other hand, there isn't a SINGLE sermon, preached ANYWHERE in the Scriptures, that explains ANY form of universal salvation.

Instead, as Jesus concluded;
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Which agrees perfectly with Daniel's vision;
Dan 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Some have asked: Why would you accept this kind of God? The answer is, because His promises are sure. HIS view of "equal ways", absolutely MUST be accepted as truth ..... in spite of our rationalizations.

 

[Dartman]

How do you conclude that?

I trusted Christ for my salvation 29 years ago.
I then trusted Christ for everyone's salvation 11 years ago.
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Jesus himself made it clear, he won't save everyone;
Matt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

In fact, he won't even save everyone who MERELY calls on his name;

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[The Times]

Actually the "cities" are "the example" or "specimen":

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."


You can go there (in the Middle East) & see they were destroyed. That's the "example".

You won't find any "eternal" fire there because it went out long ago. It ended. Just as the so-called "eternal punishment" of unbelievers will end.

Jesus isn't a sadist. God is love.

Jesus said to love your enemies. Is He a hypocrite? Has His love run dry? Or does He practice tough love with corrective punishment for the wicked & unbelievers?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Again your trying to fuse two applications into one.

There is the physical application and the spiritual application.

The subjects are the ones to experience both. Jesus warned the subjects, in regards to them experiencing both, the death of the body as the temporal physical application, then the death/torment of the soul as the spiritual application.

The fires of Sodom are long gone, yet the eternal fires of torment for the wicked souls is continuing and this is where Jude says.....in simple language......

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

It is the subjects that are set forth as an example, not specifically the remains of the cities. Jude is addressing the born again believers who have concerns of the Spirit only and have no concern of the flesh. Jude in the present tense informs that those wicked subjects are suffering eternal fires. Jude is not referring to the burnt down cities, rather to the present tense spiritual application of the wicked subjects. Big difference.

As I said before.....context, audience, culture....then you can write your thesis.

 

[Rajni]

Peter denied the Lord 3 times & still was saved & became an apostle.

True.

The whole "no second chances" argument really doesn't make much sense. Besides, the "second chance" option is supposedly available to those who die never having heard of Christ, so yeah...

 

[ClementofA]

As I said before, there are no atheists after death. At that time all the knowledge of all time will be given to you. You will not need faith. Faith will be history. As will be your chance to then be granted salvation. Because, at this time every soul will knell and admit that Christ is the messiah. Every soul.

If all knowledge were given to anyone, i think they'd explode or be God. Where does the Bible say that?

Even after all the miracles Thomas saw, he still doubted. Yet Jesus saved him & made him one of the 12 apostles. But you think God will torture billions forever who never had a fraction of the evidences Thomas recieved? Ridiculous.

"God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine"!

 

[Rajni]

Jesus himself made it clear, he won't save everyone;
Matt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

In fact, he won't even save everyone who MERELY calls on his name;

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Well, obviously it isn't that clear, else threads like this wouldn't exist.

He's the Savior of all, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10).
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lamentations 3:31)


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[Hillsage]

There is something else troubling about this lifetime camp. If true, it shows a God who is unconcerned about the welfare of souls since He has done NOTHING to stop the proliferation of false doctrines and temptations from the devil.

Hillsage, do me a favor and read this and get back to me on it.

WordPress.com ‹ Log In

This URL wants me to register in order to log in. I'm assuming when I get there there's going to be more to choose from than one thing. Can you fill me in a bit as to what I'm getting in to?

 

[ClementofA]

Again your trying to fuse two applications into one.

There is the physical application and the spiritual application.

The subjects are the ones to experience both. Jesus warned the subjects, in regards to them experiencing both, the death of the body as the temporal physical application, then the death/torment of the soul as the spiritual application.

The fires of Sodom are long gone, yet the eternal fires of torment for the wicked souls is continuing and this is where Jude says.....in simple language......

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

It is the subjects that are set forth as an example, not specifically the remains of the cities. Jude is addressing the born again believers who have concerns of the Spirit only and have no concern of the flesh. Jude in the present tense informs that those wicked subjects are suffering eternal fires. Jude is not referring to the burnt down cities, rather to the present tense spiritual application of the wicked subjects. Big difference.

As I said before.....context, audience, culture....then you can write your thesis.

No, twist it anyay you like, the fact remains, we cannot see any example of the cities or inhabitants of Sodom burning eternally today. But we can see the "example" in the Middle East where the "fire" which was not eternal burned out long ago. Just as eternal punishment for the correction of sinners will end, since it is no more eternal than the fire of Sodom was.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Hillsage]

Your English imposition on a Jewish text is terrible, if I may say so.

Of course you may 'say so'. Even if your 'say so' doesn't make it so, IMO.

I have shown in previous posts that the Anglo Saxon old English incorrectly used hell for both Gahenna and Shoel/grave and your use of the term fire is no different in its incorrect application. You simply don't get it and never will my friend.
Your lost in your own whimsical translation and will not snap out of the delusion of your personal itemised terms within your private interpretation.

That there is an abundance of theological 'stinkin thinkin' has proven to be most evident throughout the historical church realm. Your opinion' of my post is duly noted. I'm also more than happy to wait for the day of judgment for and overdue apology, from whoever has represented the best characterization of the God of the universe.

 

[Light of the East]

As a sincere reply to the many accusation against me, I shall endeavour to answer all the above, though I would like you to....kindly take off your rose coloured glasses and see what Jesus sees when he looks at the current depravity of the world and the spiralling decay that this world is heading towards and please don't tell me that these events happened historically, because never before in history have we been forced into an autonomous law society that has an outward form of godliness, but it denies the very authority of Jesus Christ altogether and aims at serving the creature and embracing the sins of the world.

It is not that I am making accusation against you as I am stating something that I think I see from certain quarters. Let me ask you point blank - do you weep over the lost condition of souls all around us, the wicked, the God-haters, those who embrace falsehoods about God? My concern is that so many seem to relish speaking about the dreadful end of sinners, but speak little of the tears they shed for them.

Yes, the world is indeed in a most horrid condition. I would put it to be like pagan Rome when the Gospel first arrived in its city. The only difference is that we are techno-pagans, who instead of putting unwanted babies out for the wolves to take away, we use surgical instruments to condemn them to a painful and gruesome death, and then some of us actually have the nerve to say that God is okay with this.

This 21 st century Autonomous law society, is a society of people who raise their fist up towards God and say, you will accept us one way or another and you will accept us the way we are and our lifestyles, you'd better or else we will accuse you as a hateful and unloving God.

This is a spot-on assessment, and it is the one thing that makes me wonder about Patristic Universalism, that people are so set in hating God as He is, and demanding that He respect their sins, that I wonder if repentance after death is possible. There are verses in Scripture which indicate that a person can harden his heart.

Can a society portray an outward loving facade, yet inwardly be embellishing a hideous hatred towards God and his Christ?

That, dear sir, is the heart of Liberalism.

I believe that anything is possible and certainly as Paul would say....

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

You accused me of having an unholy delight in mentioning Gehenna, the destination place for the accursed wicked.

Yet in these days it is common practice to call good as evil and evil as good. When I preach about a place of torment, I do so to inform people, so that they have a choice to make and if I didn't do this, amidst all the Universalist deception, they would be none the wiser, to think that continuing in their sinful lifestyles would not in any way affect their salvation. Certainly scripture calls such people like me, watchmen and those given responsibility to fore warn others to be vigilent and watchful in faith for you do not know when your Lord comes, to either award you your crown of righteousness or to separate you from him forever. If I was unloving and wanted malice for people, I would keep the warning secret to myself and would spout out the lies of Universalism, so that the rest are none the wiser.

Fair dinkum, sir! And if you are a priest, all the more better. I hope that your warnings are not just confined to this forum alone, but go into the world with you.

I mean, Universalism breeds ignorance to the impending demise of the soul in Gehenna. This example given by Jesus eloquently illustrates this ignorance within those who are perishing.....

Is there a place for warning people that their sins will earn them scourging of the most serious and painful kind in the next life without giving them some idea that there is an "out" for them which would give them some false hope? Patristic Universalism never preached that men and women would get away with the sins they committed. I wonder how the Early Fathers preached on this subject, seeing that it was so widely taught, and still warned people that their sins would have them inherit a fiery punishment?

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

You asked me how many people have I told in the last week that they need to repent? How many have I warned that they are in danger of eternal fire?

If we include this forum, my family and friends and significant others, then I would humanly inform all, that God gives me opportunity to warn others, inclusive of myself to repent for the time is at hand. Who is counting anyway, I will do what is humanly possible, even if I inform one person a week, or a month, or a year. Numbers don't count, what counts is the heart to love people enough to see their errors and to inform them of the teachings of Jesus Christ and to make straight and narrow their path, or else they will face consequences. If there is consequences in this life as a result of our choices, then most certainly there are consequences in the afterlife as a result of our choices being made in the here and now, within this earthly life.

I hope by now you realize that Patristic Universalism teaches this. There is no such thing as a free pass for the sins we have committed. Scripture seems to teach that even those who are believers will give an account, and there will be a time of purging for us of our remaining passions so that our souls are sanctified and cleansed.


You said IF

what you say is true.

But in reading the words of Christ, I don't even see Him warning people of eternal fire. I see Him warning the Jews to whom He was sent

Yes you do see it and I have gone at great lengths to provide you with a post that is convincing to even the layman.....

Universalism...why not?

But you go ahead and show me where Jesus mentioned either "hell" or "eternal punishment." I could be missing something somewhere.

Universalism...why not?

I'll go back and read them.

 

[Light of the East]

To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell. Believers in Christ, on the other hand, are not judged by the books of works, but their names are found written in another book—the “Lamb’s Book of Life” (Revelation 21:27). These are the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus, and they alone will be allowed to enter heaven.

Wow! Really???

So every poor schmuck who was living in the European continent before and during the time of Christ, every Eskimo in Alaska, the Native Americans in North America, and a great host of others who, through the simple fate of their birth outside of Jerusalem and the Jewish faith, never heard the Gospel and of Christ are basically screwed???

And you think that is just and right of God?

You know what, that isn't even scriptural. Go read Romans 2:13-16 and come back to me when you "get it." God's mercy is greater than painted by this guy you quoted.

I always found it interesting when I was a Fundamentalist when someone would ask, "What about natives in Africa that never heard the Gospel." and the answer was always along the lines of "They are going to hell." (Translated as "Too bad for them, but they don't get in.) as if the respondent was saying. "Well, I'm saved and therefore God is just to send them to hell."

One wonders if the respondent to that question would feel the same way if it was HE who was condemned to a fiery torment of everlasting misery simply because of being born in the wrong place in the wrong time.