Universalism VS. Scripture

[ottaia]

Kayanne,

You also may want to try the forum Whosoever Will May Come under the Christian only section. That is more a discussion area, not so much debate. People will try to answer your questions and you will be spared (hopefully!) the bickering that can occur.

You will find some really great people here!

Peace

 

[Rae]

It shows there was, and would be suffering for those who love God.

--And if that was what you claimed it showed, I'd agree that you backed up your claims, but you didn't. You claimed the Bible specifically predicted Peter's upside down crucifixion. Is it that hard for you to see you didn't do what you said you'd do? "Predicting suffering" is not the same thing as "authenticating rumors and myths about how the disciples died."

That's as logical as saying that since the Bible predicts suffering in those vague verses you cited, the Bible predicted Hurricane Katrina. It didn't, and it didn't say anything about how the disciples in particular, by name, died. You were stretching on this one. That's all. Can't you just admit it or clarify what you meant? I promise you won't go to hell if you admit you overreached. Honest.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

And to add that the statement "It shows there was, and would be suffering for those who love God" is such a general platitude that could be applied to almost anyone with a passion for anything.
Every person committed to their family,lover, job, country,advocacy, multi-level marketing scam or cause du jour will suffer to some degree. Heck, everybody has trouble getting out of bed on rough days.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Sorry, I've been at work all day. Those holidays really make us pay for them.

Also, after you have proven as fact (presently assumed, not in evidence) that they were all beaten, tortured, and killed you have to show that this was directly related to their practicing Christianity rather than because they simply experienced the same fate as all other criminals/social misfits/ political agitators did in that era.

Fox's book of martyrs state over 25 million people have died for the Christian faith. Over 50% of those in the last century. You can see more about that here.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

Jesus said the time would come when brother would delievers brother to death. I'm not aware of anyone in this thread that denies that.


Dan~~~>will be back later

 

[Charlie V]

Fox's book of martyrs state over 25 million people have died for the Christian faith. Over 50% of those in the last century. You can see more about that here.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

Of course, Fox's book of martyrs is not scriptural study, and can in no way be considered sound exegesis.

Say, like for instance, tentmaker.

Charlie ~~> who believes God when He says Christ is the savior of the world, and pays attention to sound exegesis.

 

[Rev. Smith]

Fox's book of martyrs state over 25 million people have died for the Christian faith. Over 50% of those in the last century. You can see more about that here.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

Jesus said the time would come when brother would delievers brother to death. I'm not aware of anyone in this thread that denies that.

None deny that there are many who have, are and will suffer rather than deny or betray their faith. This has nothing to do with Universalism, as many of us have pointed out (and I think you've agreed) the lesson of the martyr is a lesson in the courage, resolve and character of the martyr, not a witness to the truth of their beliefs. Many have died in the name of Buddah, Allah and Krishna, does this compell you to laud and worship Buddah, Alllah or Krishna?

 

[Charlie V]

None deny that there are many who have, are and will suffer rather than deny or betray their faith. This has nothing to do with Universalism, as many of us have pointed out (and I think you've agreed) the lesson of the martyr is a lesson in the courage, resolve and character of the martyr, not a witness to the truth of their beliefs. Many have died in the name of Buddah, Allah and Krishna, does this compell you to laud and worship Buddah, Alllah or Krishna?

Good point--but if the argument is that their martyrdom is witness to the truth of their beliefs, it is witness to universalism, as universalism was the prevailing Christian doctrine for the first 500 years of Christianity.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Charlie

 

[Mailman Dan]

None deny that there are many who have, are and will suffer rather than deny or betray their faith. This has nothing to do with Universalism, as many of us have pointed out (and I think you've agreed) the lesson of the martyr is a lesson in the courage, resolve and character of the martyr, not a witness to the truth of their beliefs. Many have died in the name of Buddah, Allah and Krishna, does this compell you to laud and worship Buddah, Alllah or Krishna?

I did agree, that death for ones faith does not make that faith more true. However, for those who believe Jesus came to give someone a better, happier life isn't always the rule, and many have died for the Christian faith.

Charlie ~~> who believes God when He says Christ is the savior of the world, and pays attention to sound exegesis.

I've already heard your views on the parts of the bible you believe in. As you know very well, there are also warnings throughout scripture. Because you are depending on Christ alone for payment of sin, you are just as much a Christian as I am.

However, it's obvious we hold far different views on the bible and it's text. You have stated that Genesis isn't literal, and disagree with many proof text I posted as translation errors or misunderstanding in scripture. (I wonder if that be the case, how many other doctrines are in error that both of us hold?)

I have stated from the beginning, I pray your views are correct, and everyone will one day be allowed into heaven. It'd be great if my interpertation, and the text themselves were in error.

However, the idea of justice, judgement, and punishment run the course of the bible. I have yet to find any bibical text to say it's limited for a time, or until God feels your punished enough. Such views must come from outside scripture, as the text (even the the blue letter greek translation) say otherwise.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.




Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 14:10,11
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

Thats what it says, along with the other text provided. They can't be ignored.

Dan~~~>taking proof text over doctrines of text errors

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Dan~~~>taking proof text over doctrines of text errors

And the million dollar question is....~~~> how does Dan tell the difference between proof text and text errors???

(Dan... I sense that you a have mad passionate crush on me. Is that just my imagination ?)

 

[Mailman Dan]

And the million dollar question is....~~~> how does Dan tell the difference between proof text and text errors???

Funny you should ask that, because I asked the same thing early in this thread about people who just pick parts of some text as grounds for their faith.

(Dan... I sense that you a have mad passionate crush on me. Is that just my imagination ?)

1 Thessalonians 4:5
not in passionate lust like the heathen



Dan~~~>has ALOT of proof text

 

[ottaia]

Dan, you still didn't answer Kat's question. You sidestepped it. How do you know your interpretation is correct?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Don't look now Dan but you are responding to a question with another question rather than answering it.
Btw, you also answered my other cheeky question with .... drum roll... proof text!

 

[Scholar in training]

Ok, thanks for the clarification, I understand. I supposed I have always assumed Satan to be evil.

Well, that's not exactly what I am getting at. Nevermind.

Some Christians believe hell is very hot place, complete with lakes of fire, and some Christians use the concept of hell as a threat ("turn or burn").

And they are just as disconnected from the social context as universalists are.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Don't look now Dan but you are responding to a question with another question rather than answering it.

Dan, you still didn't answer Kat's question. You sidestepped it. How do you know your interpretation is correct?

I find it odd that while you failed to answer my question about the exact same thing, and i've been asking since page one....

My interpretation (on this subject) is based on proof text. (those silly scripture verses I keep getting accused of using) I even went so far as to look up in what i've been told to be the most accurate bible. (English to Greek translation) Once you see so many text overlaping the same subject, you the look over overlaping context. Judgement and punishment do intersect at the description of the lake of fire, as well as reference's that Jesus made. (check out His parables in the gospels)

Half of the idea, while in the scripture, you also agree with. God will punish evil. For some reason, there is a doctrine that places a limit of time on that punishment. I'm not sure where that comes from. (probably from someones idea on what they would do, rather than proof text)

Now that i've given you mine, i'd like to know what Universalist base the doctrines on, and how they know they are correct. They are based on there being errors in scripture, correct?



Dan~~~>only has a crush on bible verse search engines (sorry kat...I must follow the heart)

 

[ottaia]

I base mine on Martin Luther, we are to interpret scripture in light of the radical love of Christ. The radical love overrides other interpretations. Can't give you the exact quote, the book is in the office.

 

[Mailman Dan]

I base mine on Martin Luther, we are to interpret scripture in light of the radical love of Christ. The radical love overrides other interpretations

What do you base that love on? Interpretation of scripture?

I base it on understanding of why He died, to take my rightful punishment. Thats how much He loved us. God must punish sin, but those in Christ have had their sins paid for by His blood. Thats why I fully trust Christ, and I understand His great love for us. It's not out of fear of going to hell.


Dan~~~>could have been rightfully sent to hell by a holy God that must punish evil

 

[ottaia]

Fine Dan, you are right. I have picked and chosen what I want to believe. Have fun in Heaven without me. You can look down and send me a raspberry.

 

[Rev. Smith]

IMy interpretation (on this subject) is based on proof text. (those silly scripture verses I keep getting accused of using) I even went so far as to look up in what i've been told to be the most accurate bible. (English to Greek translation) Once you see so many text overlaping the same subject, you the look over overlaping context. Judgement and punishment do intersect at the description of the lake of fire, as well as reference's that Jesus made. (check out His parables in the gospels)

Dan;

Let me see is I can shed some light. Many people take a dubious view of theological propositions that are supported by proof-texts, and nothing more. By selecting snippits of scripture I can prove almost any theology.

For example : I wish to disprove sola scriptura: I might quote:

jeremiah 23:15-1715 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

There are similar quips in Sirach and Proverbs, with a little digging I can make a case that the Prophets (about half of the Protestant canon, 40% of the complete cannon) are to be considered unreliable.

For my students who wish to employ proof texts I require them to footnote the context of the entire chapter AND identify at least as many contrary snippets that suggest the counter proposal, and show why those proof-texts are less valid.

You may have noticed that most of us in non fundimentalist of evangelical denoms refer to themes and lessons rather then proof texts, it is not because we disregard scripture, it is because we take a more holistic view.

Proof texting leads to pork chop munching preachers denounceing homosexuals while they wipe the barbeque sauce from their cotton-poly shirts, without ever explaining why the rest of Leviticus's listed "abominations" don't apply.

Dan my brother, we don't doubt your sincerity, honesty, integrity or Christian Brotherhood - we doubt your methods.

{and we do think you have a crush on Kat, its okay a lot of us do.)

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Dan~~~>only has a crush on bible verse search engines (sorry kat...I must follow the heart)

(Stop )
Oh yes, wait a minute Mister Dan Postman
( Wait )
Wait Mister Dan Postman
So many days
You passed me by
See the tears
Standin' in my eyes
You didn't stop
To make me feel better
By leavin' me
A card or a letter

 

[Scholar in training]

Proof texting leads to pork chop munching preachers denounceing homosexuals while they wipe the barbeque sauce from their cotton-poly shirts, without ever explaining why the rest of Leviticus's listed "abominations" don't apply.

Because the law is divided into different categories with different penalties for... you guessed it... different laws.