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Universalism VS. Scripture

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PastorJason

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Scholar in training said:
Which theological structure do you "buy into" regarding the crucifixion and resurrection?

... that would require a really long answer.

The short form (since I don't feel like hijacking the thread, merely bringing up alternatives) is this:

The death of Jesus on the cross was inevitable, but not necessary. Jesus chose to stand up for the message he was giving - it cost him dearly. Blood atonement was written into the story in hindsight, especially the links between Jesus and the Passover lamb. The resurrection, whether bodily or not, is a message of hope that not even death can vanquish God's message for humanity, a message which was a re-presentation of God's will for justice, righteousness, and shalom for creation, not a golden ticket into "heaven". Jesus life, ministry, death, and resurrection has deep and abiding implications for the here and now. I don't think Jesus would appreciate points of view that leave us staring into the sun and waiting for heaven, rather than actually participating in the mission he started. As far as the debate over universalism versus scripture (a baited line if I've ever heard one), a person could run themselves in circular debate all day until tongues turn blue and folks fall over dead, and it does nothing to build the peaceable kingdom of God. We're so darned concerned with being right, that we ignore a lot of things that are just plain wrong.
 
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AionOlam

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As far as the debate over universalism versus scripture (a baited line if I've ever heard one), a person could run themselves in circular debate all day until tongues turn blue and folks fall over dead, and it does nothing to build the peaceable kingdom of God. We're so darned concerned with being right, that we ignore a lot of things that are just plain wrong.

:amen:
 
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Mailman Dan

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This is one another one of those myths that if repeated enough folks will believe it and repeat it without even bothering to substaniate it.

I'm not sure how much you read the bible, which is why I use those "proof text" scriptures that keep getting attacked. In case you really are not sure what happened to the disciples, scripture makes it very clear. (yes, more bible verses some will deny)


Hebrews 11:35-39
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


This is what happened to those who loved God.

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.


And I know you might not believe it, but it exist none the less. The bible does substainiate these claims. (It will of course, continue to be denied)


Dan~~~>will probably catch more heat for posting bible verses
 
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Rae

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And I know you might not believe it, but it exist none the less. The bible does substainiate these claims.
What Bible verses, specifically, say that Bartholomew was martyred, etc.? The only major martyr I know of mentioned specifically in the NT is Stephen. Are you using apocryphal works? I'm curious.
 
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PastorJason

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Scholar in training said:
Perhaps you would like to start a new thread in this forum for us to debate this? You could copy and paste your response and I would reply to it then. Your call.

Hey, go ahead. This thread has kind of gone all over the place anyway, and I know full well the traditional theologies of blood atonement, but if you want to toss in your two cents, or three, or whatever, feel free.
 
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Mailman Dan

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Are you using apocryphal works?

There are many that go into more detail than scripture does, but the bible does speak of numerous deaths besides Stephen. If you recall, Paul was there at the time, and had been involved in moves against the church.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake.

Jesus also warned many lives would be lost for the sake of the gospel, and many would hate you because of it. This counters the claims that Christianity is to improve your "worldly life" instead of the afterlife.

1 John 3:13
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.


Dan~~~>is fairly new to reading bibical dated text other than the bible itself
 
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ballfan

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PastorJason said:
... that would require a really long answer.

The short form (since I don't feel like hijacking the thread, merely bringing up alternatives) is this:

The death of Jesus on the cross was inevitable, but not necessary. Jesus chose to stand up for the message he was giving - it cost him dearly. Blood atonement was written into the story in hindsight, especially the links between Jesus and the Passover lamb. The resurrection, whether bodily or not, is a message of hope that not even death can vanquish God's message for humanity, a message which was a re-presentation of God's will for justice, righteousness, and shalom for creation, not a golden ticket into "heaven". Jesus life, ministry, death, and resurrection has deep and abiding implications for the here and now. I don't think Jesus would appreciate points of view that leave us staring into the sun and waiting for heaven, rather than actually participating in the mission he started. As far as the debate over universalism versus scripture (a baited line if I've ever heard one), a person could run themselves in circular debate all day until tongues turn blue and folks fall over dead, and it does nothing to build the peaceable kingdom of God. We're so darned concerned with being right, that we ignore a lot of things that are just plain wrong.

I want to look at just one line of your post.

The death of Jesus on the cross was inevitable, but not necessary.

Is that your actual belief?
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Which one of statements below is from scripture??? (you know those things you like to quote)?Where are the direct biblical sources for all of these?
Mailman Dan said:
This is what happened to those who loved God.

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.


And I know you might not believe it, but it exist none the less. The bible does substainiate these claims. (It will of course, continue to be denied)


Dan~~~>will probably catch more heat for posting bible verses
Where does the bible substainiate these claims Dan? I asked you for your most favorite thing in the world and you didn't give me any:cry:
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Mailman Dan said:
There are many that go into more detail than scripture does, but the bible does speak of numerous deaths besides Stephen. If you recall, Paul was there at the time, and had been involved in moves against the church.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake.

Jesus also warned many lives would be lost for the sake of the gospel, and many would hate you because of it. This counters the claims that Christianity is to improve your "worldly life" instead of the afterlife.

1 John 3:13
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.


Dan~~~>is fairly new to reading bibical dated text other than the bible itself
Nope. These are general statements that do not address the specific historical claim that you made. You stated that all of the disciples ”they all got beaten, jailed, and killed.”

So once Again, I'‘m asking you for the biblical scriptures that specifically support this claim that they "all got beaten, jailed, and killed".
I know how much you detest extra-biblical sources (like tentmaker) and I know that you will not use anything but the Word of God.
 
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FLANDIDLYANDERS

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Mailman Dan said:
I'm not sure how much you read the bible, which is why I use those "proof text" scriptures that keep getting attacked. In case you really are not sure what happened to the disciples, scripture makes it very clear. (yes, more bible verses some will deny)


Hebrews 11:35-39
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


This is what happened to those who loved God.

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.


And I know you might not believe it, but it exist none the less. The bible does substainiate these claims. (It will of course, continue to be denied)


Dan~~~>will probably catch more heat for posting bible verses

And Ghandhi was shot. So was John Lennon. But I think Mohammed died of dysentry!
As for the endless tirade of "Christian" leaders who should be shot...
 
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Rae

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Chrysalis Kat said:
Nope. These are general statements that do not address the specific historical claim that you made. You stated that all of the disciples ”they all got beaten, jailed, and killed.”

So once Again, I'‘m asking you for the biblical scriptures that specifically support this claim that they "all got beaten, jailed, and killed".
I know how much you detest extra-biblical sources (like tentmaker) and I know that you will not use anything but the Word of God.
What Chrysalis said. None of the Bible verses you cited said, e.g., "Peter was crucified in Rome." You said that all the deaths were specifically predicted by Bible verses. I don't see any specific Bible verses documenting these deaths.
 
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Mailman Dan

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Act 16:32
Then the multitude rose up together against them; and the magistrates tore off their clothes and commanded them to be beaten with rods. And when they had laid many stripes on them, they threw them into prison, commanding the jailer to keep them securely. Having received such a charge, he put them into the inner prison and fastened their feet in the stocks.


2 Corinthians 11:24-26


From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Hebrews 11:35-39
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Just wondering..... Why do you deny suffering took place? You have stated you don't believe much of what the bible says at face value, but why do you deny this too? Does it not match your personal beliefs based on something else?

Matthew 16:25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

2 Corinthians 4:11
For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.



Dan~~~>knows theres always a cost for being a follower
 
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Rae

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Why do you deny suffering took place?
I haven't. Why do you say Bible verses show that Peter was crucified upside down when they don't? Shouldn't you be more careful about what you say about the book you think God has given you, and the claims you make in general?
 
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ottaia

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Dan, remember this feeling I presume you are feeling. This is the feeling of dealing with someone who is inflexible (Sorry Rae, no offense intended here!). You want Rae to be flexible and to give a bit. This is the same way I feel when dealing with you. I want you to just be a bit flexible. I have given up on discussing with you because it is not a discussion. I try to discuss and you just hold the party line. Well, Rae is holding you to the party line and you are getting frustrated. Admit she has a point! Maybe she will be willing to admit that you have a point! Christians are called to compromise!

If you look at the disagreement, it is really quite silly. Yes, being a Chirstian can be deadly. It also can be glorious! I am sure if Rae, (or any other liberal) said that being Christian leads to trouble and death, you would argue the opposite. No one is arguing Christianity here, we are just trying to prove that our point is better than their point!

Wayne~~~>getting tired of petty bickering when there are much better things to discuss.
 
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Mailman Dan

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[font=Times New Roman, Arial]
[/font]Why do you say Bible verses show that Peter was crucified upside down when they don't? Shouldn't you be more careful about what you say about the book you think God has given you, and the claims you make in general?[font=Times New Roman, Arial]
[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Arial]
Do you think the bible is part untrue too? It shows there was, and would be suffering for those who love God. True, there are other materials that "claim" the deaths of the discipiles that were written in bibcal times, and I don't hold them as the same value as scripture. Yet, I do trust them as a history book...leaving the possibility of over sight and error. No one has given grounds not to trust them.
[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Arial]
[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Arial]Lastly, the following quote regarding the death of Paul was taken from the Dictionary of the Bible by Dr. William Smith, article "Paul." : [/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Arial] "This epistle, [2 Timothy ] surely no unworthy utterance at such an age and in such an hour even of a St. Paul, brings us, it may well be presumed, close to the end of his life. For what remains, we have the concurrent testimony of ecclesiastical antiquity, that he was beheaded at Rome, about the same time that St. Peter was crucified there. The earliest allusion to the death of St. Paul is in that sentence from Clemens Romanus, . . . which just fails of giving us any particulars upon which we can conclusively rely. The next authorities are those quoted by Eusebius in his H. E. ii. 25. Dionysius, bishop of Corinth (A. D. 170), says that Peter and Paul went to Italy and taught there together, and suffered martyrdom about the same time. This, like most of the statements relating to the death of St. Paul, is mixed up with the tradition, with which we are not here immediately concerned, of the work of St. Peter at Rome. Caius of Rome, supposed to be writing within the 2d century, names the grave of St. Peter on the Vatican, and that of St. Paul on the Ostian way. Eusebius himself entirely adopts the tradition that St. Paul was beheaded under Nero at Rome. Amongst other early testimonies, we have that of Tertullian, who says (De Praescr. Haeret. 36) that at Rome "Petrus passioni Dominicae adaequatur, Paulus Johannis [the Baptist] exitu coronatur;" and that of Jerome (Cat. Sc. Paulus), "Hic ergo 14 to Neronis anno (eodem die quo Petrus) Romae pro Christo capite truncatus sepultusque est, in via Ostiensi." It would be useless to enumerate further testimonies of what is undisputed" .


Still, for those who make the claim that Jesus came to improve worldly lives, not the after life, the bible shows that to be an error in doctrine. With numerous scripture showing suffering, even death (Jesus included) for the sake of the gospel, why do people think different?


Dan~~~>got up too early this morning:yawn:
[/font]​
 
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ottaia

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Mailman Dan said:
I love you man...

But when we get to heaven, i'm going to give you a serious holy wedgie!
Now, for a wedgie, that involves underwear. That begs the question: If we are not Morman, will there be underwear in heaven?;)
 
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