Universalism VS. Scripture

[Chrysalis Kat]

I haven't. Why do you say Bible verses show that Peter was crucified upside down when they don't? Shouldn't you be more careful about what you say about the book you think God has given you, and the claims you make in general?

What Rae said.
Dan you have made a very specific claim that all of the disciples were beaten, jailed and killed.

You haven't provided scriptures that directly address this claim. Why is this?
You know that the bible warns about false teachers and those that spread lies and falsehoods, don't you?
I realize that there are folks that simply adore entertaining romantic notions of persecution and martyrdom[font=&quot] and I can humor that to a point but when told that the bible substantiates the fact that all of the disciples were "beaten, jailed and killed" what's wrong with asking for the specific scriptures, not broad references to general allegations about groups of unknown people rather than the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ that colaborate this claim? [/font]

 

[Mailman Dan]

You haven't provided scriptures that directly address this claim. Why is this?

Prerhaps it's wrong of me to say "ALL" instead of a general statement that we know the most of those who followed Jesus in His day suffered greatly because of it. I did show numerous scripture to support that claim, and the claim that suffering can and does occure in a Christians life.

You know that the bible warns about false teachers and those that spread lies and falsehoods, don't you?

Thats one thing I have been stressing. People all the time deny what the bible says, saying things like Adam and Eve are not real, some things in the bible aren't true, or some books of the bible were written by people on mushroom trips. They do, in fact, spread false hoods.

I realize that there are folks that simply adore entertaining romantic notions of persecution and martyrdom

Are you saying the bible is wrong about that too? Jesus was clear about suffering. What is your belief as to why people that followed Christ suffered?

Hebrews 11:35-39
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


Dan~~~>not sure why you don't believe people have suffered for the gospel

 

[chokmah]

Just for giggles, I was curious if this talk of martyrdom was supposed to substantiate something?

 

[Scholar in training]

I wonder what you are talking about.

You said: I don't know, but I do wonder if there could be other ways to foster spiritual growth without involving an evil advisary and/or threats of swimming in a lake of fire for all of eternity.

Good polemic, but it is also a strawman because (1) do adversaries always have to be evil?, (2) I do not believe that hell will have literal "hellfire", and (3) I don't know that I believe hell to be a threat.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Just for giggles, I was curious if this talk of martyrdom was supposed to substantiate something?

Ya.... A few pages back, someone said Jesus came here to improve your life, not your death. That didn't prove true for everyone who followed Jesus, some of whom lost thier life.


Dan~~~>already made the point....

 

[ottaia]

(3) I don't know that I believe hell to be a threat.

Could you elaborate more on this?

 

[Scholar in training]

Could you elaborate more on this?

Hell is a punishment, not a threat. God can leave us to our own devices if we so desire; including separation from him.

 

[chokmah]

Ya.... A few pages back, someone said Jesus came here to improve your life, not your death. That didn't prove true for everyone who followed Jesus, some of whom lost thier life.


Dan~~~>already made the point....

Okay, I remember that now, Dan. Thanks.

Btw, do you feel that the manner in which they died substantiates the beliefs that they held? (something like "conviction" = "truth")

 

[Rev. Smith]

all of the disciples were "beaten, jailed and killed" what's wrong with asking for the specific scriptures, not broad references to general allegations about groups of unknown people rather than the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ that colaborate this claim?

He won't there arn't - and it was 11, poor 'ole Judas offed himself.

Further, the martyers were not proof of the validity of the religion (we had a ressurection for that), they were the proof for the strength of charachter for the believers. While I accept that the "all humans are garbage" school of theology has to read grace into their stength, I've known enough men and women of courage who had no religious convistions over the years to say with confidance that the martyers were the prrof of our love for God, not his for us.

 

[ottaia]

Hell is a punishment, not a threat. God can leave us to our own devices if we so desire; including separation from him.

Ok, not picking nits, but picking your brain. Isn't punishment a threat? A speeding ticket is a punishment as is the electric chair. But they are used as a threat to prevent people from speeding or killing.

 

[chokmah]

He won't there arn't - and it was 11, poor 'ole Judas offed himself.

Further, the martyers were not proof of the validity of the religion (we had a ressurection for that), they were the proof for the strength of charachter for the believers. While I accept that the "all humans are garbage" school of theology has to read grace into their stength, I've known enough men and women of courage who had no religious convistions over the years to say with confidance that the martyers were the prrof of our love for God, not his for us.

Well, Rev, you answered my question from one angle. And I agree with you.

There are numerous stories within Judaism that highlight the deaths of believers, yet, I acknowledge that this represents zeal/conviction and not necessarily truth. One likes to believe so, but that is also the essence of faith.

 

[chokmah]

Ok, not picking nits, but picking your brain. Isn't punishment a threat? A speeding ticket is a punishment as is the electric chair. But they are used as a threat to prevent people from speeding or killing.

i.e. deterrent.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Btw, do you feel that the manner in which they died substantiates the beliefs that they held?

I don't believe that death for a cause or religion equals truth, if thats what you mean.

I do believe that many have, and will, suffer for the sake of the gospel. That would be more in line with what Jesus said.


Dan~~~>not sure anyone disagrees with that

 

[PastorJason]

I don't believe that death for a cause or religion equals truth, if thats what you mean.

I do believe that many have, and will, suffer for the sake of the gospel. That would be more in line with what Jesus said.


Dan~~~>not sure anyone disagrees with that

I don't think I disagree ... completely. I agree that Jesus said that follow the Way would involve suffering, but I don't think he meant torture and death, which is where the stories of the martyrs leave us.

I think if the rich young man actually did as Jesus told him and sold all he had and gave it to the poor, thus removing the biggest obstacle in his pursuit of the Way - that would have been suffering.

I think an unequally yoked spouse whose relationship with God revealed through Christ causes problem after problem in her home life - I think that's suffering.

I think each of us is called to make sacrifices to follow the Way. For it to actually be sacrifice, a loss occurs. That could be construed as suffering.

So, Dan, while I think you are correct, I'm hoping that the boundaries of your conditions and understanding of suffering don't simply lie in the tales of the martyrs - I think those are the examples of the extreme suffering of pain - but human suffering can be found in many other, and far more insidious, places.

 

[Rev. Smith]

I don't believe that death for a cause or religion equals truth, if thats what you mean.

How could it, that would mean that the minons of Osama bin Laden have truth on their side, since they are dying in droves for their cause? Willingness to die for firmly held beliefs speaks much about the charachter of the man, not the belief.

I do believe that many have, and will, suffer for the sake of the gospel. That would be more in line with what Jesus said.


Dan~~~>not sure anyone disagrees with that

None that I know of.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Also, after you have proven as fact (presently assumed, not in evidence) that they were all beaten, tortured, and killed you have to show that this was directly related to their practicing Christianity rather than because they simply experienced the same fate as all other criminals/social misfits/ political agitators did in that era.

 

[MoodyBlue]

You said: I don't know, but I do wonder if there could be other ways to foster spiritual growth without involving an evil advisary and/or threats of swimming in a lake of fire for all of eternity.

Good polemic, but it is also a strawman because (1) do adversaries always have to be evil?, (2) I do not believe that hell will have literal "hellfire", and (3) I don't know that I believe hell to be a threat.

Ok, thanks for the clarification, I understand. I supposed I have always assumed Satan to be evil. Some Christians believe hell is very hot place, complete with lakes of fire, and some Christians use the concept of hell as a threat ("turn or burn").

I personally have hard time buying into the Satan concept - we humans don't seem to need much help in screwing things up, and the devil is a convenient way to blame somebody or something else for our own failings.

 

[ahab]

This is classic from the link given near the start the tentmaker.

Testimonial[size=-1] [/size]
New! A Great and Sovereign God by Debbie Boutwell."...It made me sick to think of anyone being burned forever with absolutely no hope of an end to it. I cried at Bible study, I cried at church, I cried at home…I was a mess..."

Just exactly what did she believe before she was told about eternal life or eternal death/hell?
I mean all I can see is people being physically born and people physically dying. What exactly is eternal death apart from nothing happening after we physically die. That Jesus came to tell us and show us we can be rasied to new eternal life was in my mind good news, the eternal death was all we had anyway. Which leads to wonder whether universalists have simply believed Jesus, because if Jesus has made a way for us to have eternal life its logically the opposite of eternal death.

he is the way the truth and the life for all who believe.

 

[kayanne]

What an interesting thread. This post may get lost in the pages and pages here, but I just wanted to say that, as someone who has been moving away from fundamentalism over the past couple of years, this thread has been very good for me.

I have only had time to read the first and last pages of this thread this morning (I will certainly make time for the other 8 asap!) and I have been looking for answers to many of the questions that Mailman Dan has posed.

My compassionate side definitely "likes" the idea of universalism, but with 10 years of fundamentalist teaching in my head, it's hard to reconcile many of the verses about judgement that Dan has pointed out.

My main point in posting this morning is to say, to those of you who are perhaps getting frustrated at Dan's repeated postings of his questions (I got the idea he's been through all this with y'all before), remember that there are others of us who are just getting the courage to tiptoe away from fundamentalism, and we share the same quesitons that Dan is raising. I am hoping that some of you here, along with the tentmaker site that has been recommended, will be a help to me. Expect to see more posts and questions from me, as I have been in a 2 year struggle of knowing that I no longer believe what I had believed in the past (about salvation, hell, judgement, wrath, grace), but it has been terrifying in a way, to venture outside of the fundamentalist way of thinking.
kayanne

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

What an interesting thread. This post may get lost in the pages and pages here, but I just wanted to say that, as someone who has been moving away from fundamentalism over the past couple of years, this thread has been very good for me.

I have only had time to read the first and last pages of this thread this morning (I will certainly make time for the other 8 asap!) and I have been looking for answers to many of the questions that Mailman Dan has posed.

My compassionate side definitely "likes" the idea of universalism, but with 10 years of fundamentalist teaching in my head, it's hard to reconcile many of the verses about judgement that Dan has pointed out.

My main point in posting this morning is to say, to those of you who are perhaps getting frustrated at Dan's repeated postings of his questions (I got the idea he's been through all this with y'all before), remember that there are others of us who are just getting the courage to tiptoe away from fundamentalism, and we share the same quesitons that Dan is raising. I am hoping that some of you here, along with the tentmaker site that has been recommended, will be a help to me. Expect to see more posts and questions from me, as I have been in a 2 year struggle of knowing that I no longer believe what I had believed in the past (about salvation, hell, judgement, wrath, grace), but it has been terrifying in a way, to venture outside of the fundamentalist way of thinking.
kayanne

Jump on in kayanne, the waters are fine! First, Congratulations on leaving fundamentalism. It’s a completely different paradigm to move from black and white thinking convinced that you have all the answers to being able to grow comfortable with uncertainty and rationally admitting that there are things we simply cannot know.
The tentmaker site is excellent. Also, carefully reading posts by CharlesV will also give much insight.


Feel free to start a thread with any nagging questions you have.