Universalism VS. Scripture

Im_A · Sep 24, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
The Lord permits them. The fact that the Lord gave it permission and permitted it, in that way it was 'from' Him.

but your denying what the verse says. it says that God created evil. permitting something and createing something are two different things, and thus the verse states, that God created evil.

truegrace · Sep 24, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
The Lord permits them. The fact that the Lord gave it permission and permitted it, in that way it was 'from' Him.

Sorry, Lily, "permits, permission, permitted" these are your words, not God's (if we play by your rules).

The text does not say that God permits, gives permission, or permitted an evil spirit. It says that God sent it. It was from Him, not from someone or somewhere else.

Now, this is what God said. According to your own rules, do you believe it just as God said it or does your personal theology require you to actually (brrrr) interpret what the Bible says?

truegrace

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 24, 2005

truegrace said:
Sorry, Lily, "permits, permission, permitted" these are your words, not God's (if we play by your rules).

The text does not say that God permits, gives permission, or permitted an evil spirit. It says that God sent it. It was from Him, not from someone or somewhere else.

Now, this is what God said. According to your own rules, do you believe it just as God said it or does your personal theology require you to actually (brrrr) interpret what the Bible says?

truegrace

One, does God bring sin from Himself? No. Does God have demons working for Him? No. They are under Him and such, but don't work for Him. Also, think of translations and also what other languages said.

Im_A · Sep 24, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
One, does God bring sin from Himself? No. Does God have demons working for Him? No. They are under Him and such, but don't work for Him. Also, think of translations and also what other languages said.

hmm, well Job shows us differently there. the devil going to ask God if he/it can test/tempt Job out. so to prove that Job is a faithful servant God, God has to use the devil as working for Him to show this eh?

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 24, 2005

tattedsaint said:
hmm, well Job shows us differently there. the devil going to ask God if he/it can test/tempt Job out. so to prove that Job is a faithful servant God, God has to use the devil as working for Him to show this eh?

God permits the devil, He doesn't use the devil nor is Satan working for God, they are enemies. Satan hates the Lord. The Lord did use the circumstances.

Im_A · Sep 24, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
God permits the devil, He doesn't use the devil nor is Satan working for God, they are enemies. Satan hates the Lord. The Lord did use the circumstances.

you said God did use the circumstances, but He didn't use the devil nor is Satan working for God? lily that's a contradiction. if Satan wasn't there, there would be no circumstances to use period. for it was Satan that came to God to test Job as the story tells us. there was no circumstance outside of Satan going to God to test/tempt Job. the circumstance is, the devil going to God to test/tempt Job, and God used Satan to prove that Job was a faithful servant.

Im_A · Sep 24, 2005

and now the thread got sidetracked, haha. oh well

ebia · Sep 24, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
How is punishment imperfect?

Because it indicates failure. Failure on the part of the person being punished certainly, but also failure on the part of the person or system doing the punishment. And punishment that can't result in change (which must be the case for eternal punishment) is pointless. Pointless suffering isn't perfect.

If God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must judge sin. If He didn't, he wouldn't be those things.

Perhaps you'd better define what you mean by judge before I respond to that.

Im_A · Sep 24, 2005

ebia said:
Because it indicates failure. Failure on the part of the person being punished certainly, but also failure on the part of the person or system doing the punishment. And punishment that can't result in change (which must be the case for eternal punishment) is pointless. Pointless suffering isn't perfect.

great points ebia

flautist · Sep 25, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
One, does God bring sin from Himself? No. Does God have demons working for Him? No. They are under Him and such, but don't work for Him. Also, think of translations and also what other languages said.

Shouldn't we also look at translations and the original languages when it comes to universalism, too, and how there was no place of eternal punishment in the doctrines of the early churches? Why should we look at the original languages and take translations into consideration for this but not for the doctrine of hell?

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

flautist said:
Shouldn't we also look at translations and the original languages when it comes to universalism, too, and how there was no place of eternal punishment in the doctrines of the early churches? Why should we look at the original languages and take translations into consideration for this but not for the doctrine of hell?

Great point, Flautist, we should look at other translations and the original languages when considering a subject as controversial as this.

By and large, though, most will not do this. They will simply drone in with the party line.

If your presupposition is wrong, your findings are going to be slanted.

For instance, let's say that I believed in a flat earth. I could go to the Bible and pull out the verses that talk about the sky being a dome over the earth, about the earth having corners, about Jesus going to the top of a high mountain in order to see all the kingdoms of the world, and I could come away saying, "Yep, flat earth." The Bible says it, I believe it, end of story. But I would be flat wrong.

Some do a very similar thing with the subject of hell (hades, Gehenna, Tartarus). They assume that hell, as taught by the traditional church, is the literal truth and then go looking for Jesus' teachings which support that view.

So they come up with this presupposition that we all live on a "flat earth" and are sailing all of our ships for the edge, doomed to fall into oblivion and hell unless we turn around. This is their paradigm and the lense that they see the entire subject of salvation through. Then they begin arguing over whether God has predestined some ships to sail over the edge and other ships to turn around, or whether we have the free will to choose to turn our ships around. They will call each other heretic over this assinine argument and label anyone who believes that the earth is round a heretic also.

It is difficult to reason, either from the scriptures or from common sense, with such folks because they have been taught that thinking about what they believe is wrong. God said it, I must blindly trust it. I believe it, not because it makes sense and is worthy of belief, but because, if I don't, my ship goes over the edge and I go straight to hell.

You can get folks to believe and do almost anything if you threaten them with unending torture. And this is exactly what many believe that God does -- threatens everyone with everlasting torment. If God is love, then His perfect love can cast out all fear. Fear has to do with punishment and those who fear God in this manner can never truly love Him. They respect Him for His power. They hold Him in awe for His might. But they can never truly come to rest in His love because His love is seen as conditional.

truegrace

Mailman Dan · Sep 25, 2005

Because it indicates failure. Failure on the part of the person being punished certainly, but also failure on the part of the person or system doing the punishment. And punishment that can't result in change (which must be the case for eternal punishment) is pointless. Pointless suffering isn't perfect.

Question:

A child murderer stands in front of a judge and admits his guilt, having carved a kid apart with some type of preverted joy in his heart. If the judge allows him to go free, is that *LOVE* over coming *sin*? Do you think a just God would over look that as well?

If you don't believe God would over look that, or all the people who have got away with murder in this life time, what type punishment do you believe will be given? (use scripture if you can)

Great point, Flautist, we should look at other translations and the original languages when considering a subject as controversial as this.

Funny thing about that....

Having used 11 translations on the same verses, the context of "eternal" remains the same.(as the words second death) Either God was in error using that word, or He really ment what it said. Scripture also seperates the difference between Hell, Sheol, and the Lake of fire, where the two end up being cast. Some say that means they will end, but the bible states clearly what the lake of fire is.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Fundies do a very similar thing with the subject of hell (hades, Gehenna, Tartarus). They assume that hell, as taught by the traditional church, is the literal truth and then go looking for Jesus' teachings which support that view.

Those of us that believe the words of Jesus *Fudies you say* don't base them on the church, nor the Roman Catholic leaders that stated the world was flat. Here are some words that Jesus spoke. (since you ignored the rest of them...

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 11:23

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:9

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 23:15

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

BTW, No matter your translation you put on these verses, the context doesn't change much. So rather than "fundies" that you believe follow a church, we are called "Christians" that follow the word of God, without disreguarding parts that we don't agree with as translation errors.

You can get folks to believe and do almost anything if you threaten them with unending torture. And this is exactly what most of the fundies believe that God does -- threatens everyone with everlasting torment.

Again, this is not a *Fundies* doctrine, rather it comes straight from Jesus. I don't know why you don't want to believe Him...

Dan~~~>tends to believe the warnings in the bible are there for a reason

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Mailman Dan said:
Again, this is not a *Fundies* doctrine, rather it comes straight from Jesus. I don't know why you don't want to believe Him...
Dan~~~>tends to believe the warnings in the bible are there for a reason

Hell, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus - to who? You? Me? Let's see what Jesus said:

Jesus said that all those things would come upon that generation and they did. Jesus never said this was a possibility in every generation. He said it would happen in that generation.

The people of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and see, something greater than Jonah is here! - Matthew 12:41; see Luke 11:32

Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation. - Matthew 23:36

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. - Matthew 24:34

Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." - Mark 8:38

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. - Mark 13:30

When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, "This generation is an evil generation; it asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. - Luke 11:29

So that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world. - Luke 11:50

From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation. - Luke 11:51

But first he must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation. - Luke 17:25

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place. - Luke 21:32

And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." - Acts 2:40

"I don't know why you don't want to believe Him..."

truegrace

Mailman Dan · Sep 25, 2005

Jesus said that all those things would come upon that generation and they did. Jesus never said this was a possibility in every generation.

Are you saying, that only the wicked people in Jesus day went to hell? Jesus was saying that the generation He was in was the one that would see the fulfillment of prophecy, which was the coming of Christ, not that just those people were going to hell for all eternity. That is scripture about as far out of context as one can get.

Fear has to do with punishment and those who fear God in this manner can never truly love Him. They respect Him for His power.

Respect has nothing to do with fear, which is what many lack. I suggest doing a key word search on the word "fear" sometime. When you remove justice, you remove the very reason God wanted everyone to repent.

Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Dan~~~>hopes you'll trust in the warnings as much as the rest of scripture

Im_A · Sep 25, 2005

Mailman Dan said:
Are you saying, that only the wicked people in Jesus day went to hell? Jesus was saying that the generation He was in was the one that would see the fulfillment of prophecy, which was the coming of Christ, not that just those people were going to hell for all eternity. That is scripture about as far out of context as one can get.

not when you take it literally cause it's stated right there

Respect has nothing to do with fear, which is what many lack. I suggest doing a key word search on the word "fear" sometime. When you remove justice, you remove the very reason God wanted everyone to repent.

Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Dan~~~>hopes you'll trust in the warnings as much as the rest of scripture

Reverant Fear of the Lord is healthy. but how can a heart be true in serving some God we cannot even see in some childish fear? like being afraid of daddy because he may beat the living crap out of us or send us to hell? you call that a true loving relationship with someone? i hope not cause that is sick and twisted. how odd it seems to me now, to think of praying, oh God i love you because you won't destroy my life...? am i the only one that finds this a bit odd. now grant it, i'm thankful to God that God has done that to me. but there's more to God to love and to believe in, then some little so called "fire insurance policy", or some childish fear.

fear of the Lord is milk of the faith, and we should move on from it, and go to the meat of the faith.

well i think i'm done here posting in this dan. you have failed to give us one reason to believe that Jesus's parables/metaphors were meant to be taken literal, so i shake the dust off my feet and walk away cause any discussion in this is pointless. all you do is quote and quote, not giving one iota of proof that every parable/metaphor is meant to be taken literally. oh well, it was fun while it lasted God Bless you! <><

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Mailman Dan said:
Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Good verses, Dan. But notice what Solomon says:

The fear of the Lord is the beginning, not the total summation, of wisdom.

The fear of the Lord leads to life, but it is not life itself.

truegrace~~~>has no more fear of hell-based religion or of those who hawk it as being "the love of God."

Im_A · Sep 25, 2005

truegrace said:
Good verses, Dan. But notice what Solomon says:

The fear of the Lord is the beginning, not the total summation, of wisdom.

The fear of the Lord leads to life, but it is not life itself.

truegrace~~~>has no more fear of hell-based religion or of those who hawk it as being "the love of God."

great post!!!

Im_A · Sep 25, 2005

here are some quotes that i love, that i will leave with.

St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" (i am not trying to hint that this Eastern Orthodox saint was a universalist.)

"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Pope John Paul II (this is not saying that Pope John Paul II was a univeraslist.)

and to end it with this lengthy site, that for the sake of my eyes and small text, i'm going to print out to read. a very lengthy, detailed explanation using A LOT of verses. a worthwhile read after a quick scan over it.- http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

God_of_Mercy · Sep 25, 2005

Again, http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#29

If you want the Universalist view on all those hell verses please read.

An interesting article on the Lake of fire too:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html#The Lake Of Fire

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 25, 2005

flautist said:
Shouldn't we also look at translations and the original languages when it comes to universalism, too, and how there was no place of eternal punishment in the doctrines of the early churches? Why should we look at the original languages and take translations into consideration for this but not for the doctrine of hell?

the Aposles taught that there was eternal punishment and God Himself even said it. YOu either believe God or not.

Universalism VS. Scripture

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