Universalism: pros and cons

[Crazy Liz]

We know by the work of the Holy Spirit in us what is truth. The Revelator! By faith we accept the message of hope as well as the message of what it is like to have NO HOPE.

You're not asserting that the Holy Spirit does NOT work in Tkjjc, are you?

 

[Joykins]

O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made.
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

And when I think that God, His Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

When Christ shall come with shouts of acclamation
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art!

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

 

[Floatingaxe]

Guess not.

And I feel like you would rather ridicule people than explain what you mean in a way that is really intended to produce mutual understanding. I'm not sure why, or why I keep seeming to misunderstand you, but I don't feel like you're trying very hard to understand or be understood.

OK. I'd say so, too.

How did those kids down the block come to have a different father? Did your father create them and then give them up for adoption to a cruel tyrant?

But you've said your father doesn't care about them. Why would they?

I don't understand how the war metaphor and the parent metaphor work together. I give birth to kids and give them up to mean, cruel enemies. How do you call such a parent loving?

This does not make sense to me at all.

Do you want to try to help me get it?

If you don't get it, then heaven help you. Truly. We are all born sinners, and born dead spiritually, and God is a stranger. We need to be introduced to Him!

The war metaphor is from Scripture: we are dealing with principalities and powers--not flesh and blood. The argument here is spiritual, and the evil one is preventing the truth from being discerned, even in a simple metaphor!

 

[Hentenza]

O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made.
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

And when I think that God, His Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

When Christ shall come with shouts of acclamation
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art!

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

One of my favorite.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Hi Chaela,

The context of this passage does not help you because it simply does not support universalism. Please read further into the chapter. Mainly verses 36-39.

I think you will find that it is more of a case of you having no idea what so ever of how God is going to accomplish 1 Timothy 2.4....because it just has not been revealed to you.

Refute 1 Timothy 4

 

[Hentenza]

I think you will find that it is more of a case of you having no idea what so ever of how God is going to accomplish 1 Timothy 2.4....because it just has not been revealed to you.

Refute 1 Timothy 4

LOL!!! SD, context, context, context. You are still missing the context. Tell me, what is 1 Timothy 2 talking about?

SD, go to the other thread and answer this post please.

 

[Nadiine]

You're not asserting that the Holy Spirit does NOT work in Tkjjc, are you?

How could she do that when it's against the rules?

 

[Nadiine]

Yet you heap ridicule on those who say God really wants to and can eventually save all humans, referring to verses in a bit more detail than you have.

I'm very confused about your methodology.

Honestly - After your earlier post to me, you might want to refrain about talking to others about ridicule.

You claim FA's posts don't help anyone understand, and I gave a long explanation & you just went bolistic on me...
does anyone please you?

You might want to calm down here becuz your posts are getting pretty combative on a personal level as I see it.
If you want to discuss the issue then discuss the issues & ADD something of interest & please quit policing your opponents on a personal level.

 

[Joykins]

I'm not a mod but since I'm the OP I would request that everyone on this thread address each other with respect. Every time you treat someone who disagrees with you like a child of God, I will rep you and I almost have mad rep power

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not a mod but since I'm the OP I would request that everyone on this thread address each other with respect. Every time you treat someone who disagrees with you like a child of God, I will rep you and I almost have mad rep power

no need to rep for just decent behaviour lol

I'm just not into how personal this is being made. It's supposed to be about the subjects, not going after people with attacks.

 

[Nadiine]

No they don't. They wear rose-coloured glasses for the most part

and shut their eyes for the remainder.

hey I've seen some 70's pictures & those were HOT in those days

 

[CaDan]

no need to rep for just decent behaviour lol

I'm just not into how personal this is being made. It's supposed to be about the subjects, not going after people with attacks.

No they don't. They wear rose-coloured glasses for the most part

and shut their eyes for the remainder.

hey I've seen some 70's pictures & those were HOT in those days

Umm . . . .

 

[Tkjjc]

God wouldn't allow that. He is not the author of confusion.

Then WHY "ALL" the confusion? Over a little word like "ALL"

They are saying it doesn't mean ALL, but "some"...By definition alone, this is confusion. They take scripture that speaks plain English, translated from PLAIN GREEK, and make it something it isn't. Not some dump outside of Jerusalem, translated in English to mean a fiery lake inferno, where billions of people will be slaughtered by the Holiest of Holies, according to the doctrines of some in this place called "hell".

They don't even know when the book of Revelation was even written, and can at best, guess. But guess only when it suits their brand of doctrines, of course. Don't count those Jews who died in 70AD, and had their bodies burned outside the gates, in the actual Gehenna. Of course it couldn't mean that now, could it? That wouldn't be a judgment, no different than what happened at Sodom, would it? Kinda like the one Jesus TOLD them was going to happen?

Oh well, maybe not. Guess with ALL this confusion, we shall just have to sift out the wheat from the tares....the Truth from the Lies.
Keep searching, it is there

 

[Nadiine]

Depart from me, doesn't equate 'BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY" now does it?

Are you going to escape God's presence in the afterlife??
Where are they going where they aren't in His presence? He calls them workers of sin on top of it. Is SIN going someplace else other than Gehenna to be punished?

Since there's no description of any OTHER place they go than where the Bible has clearly laid out (ie. Hell/Gehenna), you cannot start making up other places God mite be sending them as if it's doctrine.

And if these religious people who thought they were of God & doing works in His name but were actually living in chronic sin... then where are the LOST who rejected Christ going or why are THEY going to a different place?

It's not sufficient just to say "it doesn't say their going to Gehenna". 1) they're going to be punished for sin 2) there's only one place God has made for punishment of sin 3) where else is there in the afterlife that is "out of His presence"? His full glory will be revealed.

Any way around it I see a big problem.

 

[Nadiine]

Umm . . . .

Yes, read the posts -

You read me in the other thread, you know I said I have no problem with some off topic posts & discourse.

In context, it was about someone else who's making personal attacks to get to the issues & keep it off people.

That was my issue, not having to stick rigidly to issues with no diversion.

good grief


there's a word for this, but using it goes against my better conscience for this thread

 

[SpiritDriven]

Well lets get down to the Truth, of how God will accomplish 1 Timothy 2.4

8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

Now the problem with non believers, or people who say they are Christians, but are not really, because they just do not believe the Gospel (scary thought eh) is that they will argue till they are blue in the face that not every Knee in Creation will bow to Jesus, and that not every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

They are not really Christians.....are we to argue with non believers ?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Then WHY "ALL" the confusion? Over a little word like "ALL"

They are saying it doesn't mean ALL, but "some"...By definition alone, this is confusion. They take scripture that speaks plain English, translated from PLAIN GREEK, and make it something it isn't. Not some dump outside of Jerusalem, translated in English to mean a fiery lake inferno, where billions of people will be slaughtered by the Holiest of Holies, according to the doctrines of some in this place called "hell".

They don't even know when the book of Revelation was even written, and can at best, guess. But guess only when it suits their brand of doctrines, of course. Don't count those Jews who died in 70AD, and had their bodies burned outside the gates, in the actual Gehenna. Of course it couldn't mean that now, could it? That wouldn't be a judgment, no different than what happened at Sodom, would it? Kinda like the one Jesus TOLD them was going to happen?

Oh well, maybe not. Guess with ALL this confusion, we shall just have to sift out the wheat from the tares....the Truth from the Lies.
Keep searching, it is there

I'M not confused.

We don't have to worry about the wheat and the tares. We don't do the reaping. anyone who thinks that sin can weasel its way into reward by a God who is HOLY and cannot stand to have sin in His presence, is confused for sure.

We know who sows confusion and discord.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well lets get down to the Truth, of how God will accomplish 1 Timothy 2.4

8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

Now the problem with non believers, or people who say they are Christians, but are not really, because they just do not believe the Gospel (scary thought eh) is that they will argue till they are blue in the face that not every Knee in Creation will bow to Jesus, and that not every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

They are not really Christians.....are we to argue with non believers ?

NOT ONE POSTER HERE has ever denied that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Where are you hearing such dissenting voices?

 

[Tkjjc]

I'M not confused.

We don't have to worry about the wheat and the tares. We don't do the reaping. anyone who thinks that sin can weasel its way into reward by a God who is HOLY and cannot stand to have sin in His presence, is confused for sure.

We know who sows confusion and discord.

I did not say that SIN can COME INTO GOD'S Presence, at all. I know better!

So please, let us not put words into my mouth, kk? That would be playing mighty rough, yes indeed. But as you can tell from the REST of my post, which you didn't even dispute, there is INDEED confusion, even if eyes can not see it right in front of them. People make the Bible read how they want it to, even if it goes against other scripture. Do you not agree with that? You say it is us, and it is up to us to prove we are the ones who see clearly, right? Otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I did not say that SIN can COME INTO GOD'S Presence, at all. I know better!

So please, let us not put words into my mouth, kk? That would be playing mighty rough, yes indeed. But as you can tell from the REST of my post, which you didn't even dispute, there is INDEED confusion, even if eyes can not see it right in front of them. People make the Bible read how they want it to, even if it goes against other scripture. Do you not agree with that? You say it is us, and it is up to us to prove we are the ones who see clearly, right? Otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

Yes it is the Universalists who deny the entire message of salvation for the redeemed and condemnation for the sinner.

Confusion reigns there...