Universalism: pros and cons

[Floatingaxe]

Do you kill other people's children?

You just don't get it, do you?

My Father is the head of a loving Family.

Those kids down the block have a tyrant for a father, who abuses them and ends up killing them. Unless some of them escape to be adopted by my Father, they will die in their captive state.

This is a spiritual war.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Same question, actually, if you look at it.

Not really.

 

[Nadiine]

I realize there is a distinction being made between God's creation and God's children.

John 1:12 says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--"

However, I believe that ultimately all creation will carry the title of God's children, as it is promised in Romans 8:19-23:

"All creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty of the children of God" Romans 8:19-23

A relative few are called "children of God" at this juncture, but, ultimately, everyone will be ushered into this category.

Have you read the entire chapter?

There is great detail on those who have the SPIRIT of God - being redeemed. This is about those who are saved - I'm not seeing the lost here.

Plus, you still haven't reconciled Mat. 7:21-23 which emphatically says Jesus tells them to depart from Him, He didn't know them. (amongst others - if those are told to depart -those who claim to know God & do works in His name, what do we make of the unrepentant who stay in their rebellion & sin?
If the ones Jesus is telling to leave Him are "lawless", what of those who stay in sin?)

 

[SpiritDriven]

Yet again from Corinthians....

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


The word of God always reminds us that all men are subject to the will of God....notice how Christ will not reign forever in verse 25....so that he can full fill verse 24.......

It is amazing what you can pick up on when you respect the word of God.....yet how many people really do.

Notice how even the order of the Salvation of all men is listed.....

It is interesting to note that Christ is not going to take forever to perfect all things.....which is the reason why he does not have to reign forever......

 

[Rajni]

"All creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty of the children of God" Romans 8:19-23

"All creation," Nadiine, "all creation". Scripture is not going to argue with itself. However it may seem elsewhere, it's pretty plain that, in the end, all creation will be delivered, and enjoy the liberty of God's children.

Have you read the entire chapter?

There is great detail on those who have the SPIRIT of God - being redeemed. This is about those who are saved - I'm not seeing the lost here.

Plus, you still haven't reconciled Mat. 7:21-23 which emphatically says Jesus tells them to depart from Him, He didn't know them. (amongst others - if those are told to depart -those who claim to know God & do works in His name, what do we make of the unrepentant who stay in their rebellion & sin?
If the ones Jesus is telling to leave Him are "lawless", what of those who stay in sin?)

 

[CaDan]

Not really.

It would still be a mediated experience for you. You would hear me talking about things, not you experiencing the things themselves.

But enough Comm Theory--more hymns!

 

[Nadiine]

"All creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty of the children of God" Romans 8:19-23

"All creation," Nadiine, "all creation". Scripture is not going to argue with itself. However it may seem elsewhere, it's pretty plain that, in the end, all creation will be delivered, and enjoy the liberty of God's children.

You aren't answering MY questions here Chaela.

I gave YOU scripture, so what do YOU do with Mat. 7:21-23???? I know how fun & easy it is to keep whipping out your own & ignoring what comes back, but..
This has been continually asked and continually ignored.

You're right, scripture doesn't refute itself,
HALLELUJAH we agree on something.

So find out how MY verses mesh with YOURS or else you're working from a messed up bible that is useless to bring truth.
& it needs proper scripture support [in context] in order to be plausible.

Something isn't fitting together here. I'm not just here to attack Universalism - the whole bible has to make sense & teach one fluent truth.
If it doesn't, then more study must be done before we come to definite conclusions on a doctrine/theory.

We don't just cut out bible verses like coupons out of the Sunday paper & pretend they dissappeared now that we have gaping holes in the pages to suit our opinions.

He tells them He doesn't know them, to depart from Him & they're workers of Sin. That tells me that we can't just read in that ALL get in & restored when we have other scriptures saying something else.
Mat 7:23 SHOULD have continued to give an exemption clause that it would be TEMPORARY & they're reunited later back into His presence. (anything)

Incl. the parables that give direct differences of wheat/tares & sheep/goats being separated. I also see no one getting back out of Gehenna in any detail.

This isn't just some slam dunk when you read a few verses you interpret to suit your theory or preference and you just run with it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The word of God always reminds us that all men are subject to the will of God....notice how Christ will not reign forever in verse 25....so that he can full fill verse 24.......

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”(Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.



**The trick here is to rightly divide Scripture. It is foolish to ignore context.

 

[SpiritDriven]

It is interesting to note that Christ is not going to take forever to perfect all things.....which is the reason why he does not have to reign forever......

Somthing else Ive just relised as well, how people in the past came to the relisation of the Truth, with out correct translation available to them....I will paste the scripture only from Post 166 here...

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


Now somebody could just read over it with out picking up on it.....and then not make the connection from reading earlier or later in the Bible.....that when they read anything where it mentions Christ will reign forever...they are not reading the correct translation...because we know from Corinthians that Christ reigns only until all enemies have been put under his feet....

I think it really does demonstrate how closely the word of God must be looked at....

 

[Hentenza]

"All creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty of the children of God" Romans 8:19-23

"All creation," Nadiine, "all creation". Scripture is not going to argue with itself. However it may seem elsewhere, it's pretty plain that, in the end, all creation will be delivered, and enjoy the liberty of God's children.

Hi Chaela,

The context of this passage does not help you because it simply does not support universalism. Please read further into the chapter. Mainly verses 36-39.

 

[Nadiine]

Hi Chaela,

The context of this passage does not help you because it simply does not support universalism. Please read further into the chapter. Mainly verses 36-39.

Exactly, thank you. I just don't see how it's supportive by using that verse when you read the entire chapter's descriptions.

 

[Tkjjc]

Exactly, thank you. I just don't see how it's supportive by using that verse when you read the entire chapter's descriptions.

Kinda like the "lake of fire" is found throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE.

No wonder the original council almost left it out. Too much confusion.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Kinda like the "lake of fire" is found throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE.

No wonder the original council almost left it out. Too much confusion.

God wouldn't allow that. He is not the author of confusion.

 

[Nadiine]

Kinda like the "lake of fire" is found throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE.

No wonder the original council almost left it out. Too much confusion.

So God had a false doctrine let into the Bible to mislead us all?

And you think it should of just been yanked out becuz it isn't mentioned elsewhere enough? (while you believe in a doctrine that doesn't HAVE any specfic verses that show people getting released from punishment to be restored to eternal life anywhere)???
I have MORE to rely on than you do becuz mine is at least in there.

But this would be the reason the lake of fire passages remain in Revelation:

Rev 22
A Warning


18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This would be strong incentive for me not to tamper with Revelation. And if it's error, why is it in a book that God warns not to add or detract from specifically?
It's the only book God gives a warning in.

 

[CaDan]

So God had a false doctrine let into the Bible to mislead us all?

And you think it should of just been yanked out becuz it isn't mentioned elsewhere enough? (while you believe in a doctrine that doesn't HAVE any specfic verses that show people getting released from punishment to be restored to eternal life anywhere)???
I have MORE to rely on than you do becuz mine is at least in there.

But this would be the reason the lake of fire passages remain in Revelation:

Rev 22
A Warning


18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This would be strong incentive for me not to tamper with Revelation. And if it's error, why is it in a book that God warns not to add or detract from specifically?
It's the only book God gives a warning in.

You do know what italics signify in the Authorized Version, don't you?

 

[Tkjjc]

God wouldn't allow that. He is not the author of confusion.

Then WHY "ALL" the confusion? Over a little word like "ALL"

You are saying it doesn't mean ALL, but "some"...By definition alone, this is confusion. You take scripture that speaks plain English, translated from PLAIN GREEK, and make it something it isn't. Not some dump outside of Jerusalem, translated in English to mean a fiery lake inferno, where billions of people will be slaughtered by the Holiest of Holies, according to the doctrines of some in this place called "hell".

They don't even know when the book of Revelation was even written, and can at best, guess. But guess only when it suits your brand of doctrines, of course. Don't count those Jews who died in 70AD, and had their bodies burned outside the gates, in the actual Gehenna. Of course it couldn't mean that now, could it? That wouldn't be a judgment, no different than what happened at Sodom, would it? Kinda like the one Jesus TOLD them was going to happen?

Oh well, maybe not. Guess with ALL this confusion, we shall just have to sift out the wheat from the tares....the Truth from the Lies.
Keep searching, it is there

 

[Crazy Liz]

You just don't get it, do you?

Guess not.

And I feel like you would rather ridicule people than explain what you mean in a way that is really intended to produce mutual understanding. I'm not sure why, or why I keep seeming to misunderstand you, but I don't feel like you're trying very hard to understand or be understood.

My Father is the head of a loving Family.

OK. I'd say so, too.

Those kids down the block have a tyrant for a father, who abuses them and ends up killing them.

How did those kids down the block come to have a different father? Did your father create them and then give them up for adoption to a cruel tyrant?

Unless some of them escape to be adopted by my Father, they will die in their captive state.

But you've said your father doesn't care about them. Why would they?

This is a spiritual war.

I don't understand how the war metaphor and the parent metaphor work together. I give birth to kids and give them up to mean, cruel enemies. How do you call such a parent loving?

This does not make sense to me at all.

Do you want to try to help me get it?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Not really.

Why not?

Your response doesn't help anybody understand.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Then WHY "ALL" the confusion? Over a little word like "ALL"

You are saying it doesn't mean ALL, but "some"...By definition alone, this is confusion. You take scripture that speaks plain English, translated from PLAIN GREEK, and make it something it isn't. Not some dump outside of Jerusalem, translated in English to mean a fiery lake inferno, where billions of people will be slaughtered by the Holiest of Holies, according to the doctrines of some in this place called "hell".

They don't even know when the book of Revelation was even written, and can at best, guess. But guess only when it suits your brand of doctrines, of course. Don't count those Jews who died in 70AD, and had their bodies burned outside the gates, in the actual Gehenna. Of course it couldn't mean that now, could it? That wouldn't be a judgment, no different than what happened at Sodom, would it? Kinda like the one Jesus TOLD them was going to happen?

Oh well, maybe not. Guess with ALL this confusion, we shall just have to sift out the wheat from the tares....the Truth from the Lies.
Keep searching, it is there

We know by the work of the Holy Spirit in us what is truth. The Revelator! By faith we accept the message of hope as well as the message of what it is like to have NO HOPE.

 

[Crazy Liz]

God wouldn't allow that. He is not the author of confusion.

Although I'm not quite sure what it is you think God wouldn't allow, it's quite interesting to me how easily you dismiss someone else's post on the basis of one phrase taken from a Bible verse about God's nature. Yet you heap ridicule on those who say God really wants to and can eventually save all humans, referring to verses in a bit more detail than you have.

I'm very confused about your methodology.