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Universal Resurrection

keras

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Your unsupported opinions.
The teaching of immortality or 'glorification of our bodies' when Jesus Returns, is false and is never prophesied to happen.

Although this belief is not a Salvation issue, those who hold to it may experience some loss as what they expected to happen; does not.

After all, why should anyone receive immortality before Eternity, the eternal Spiritual state comes? Revelation 21 to 22
 
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ewq1938

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The teaching of immortality or 'glorification of our bodies' when Jesus Returns, is false and is never prophesied to happen.


That remains false.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Just as the other scriptures show, immortality comes at the second coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The word "incorruption" here is the same exact word "immortality" in 1Co 15:53 which proves when the dead resurrect, they are immortal.

The dead rise at the second coming and the other scriptures affirm that is also when immortality is received.

You have nothing to support your view and that same view is in direct contradiction to the above scriptures. The church has ALWAYS known this to be true. Your position is not true.
 
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Timtofly

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Again, as per normal, you fail to address the evidence.
There is no evidence for recap. I addressed it as a failed system that cannot fly.

Once again you can not even show recap, thus the word by itself is not content. Where is the Cross mentioned in the 7 Seals? Where is the Cross mentioned in the 7 Trumpets? Where is the Cross mentioned in the 7 Thunders? Where is the Cross mentioned in the 7 vials? Where is the Cross mentioned in Revelation 20, after the battle of Armageddon?
 
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keras

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Your position is not true.
NONE of your 'supporting' verses say that Immortality will be conferred when Jesus Returns.
They all Promise Eternal Life, but don't say when it will happen. John 3:16 is a prime example.
When eternal life comes, is when Eternity comes. Which will be after the 7000 years that God has decreed for mankind.
 
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ewq1938

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NONE of your 'supporting' verses say that Immortality will be conferred when Jesus Returns.

Actually they all do that. This is what the church has known since the days of the disciples. Those that believe otherwise are in the minority, the incorrect minority. In this case, the majority do have it correct and always have.
 
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ewq1938

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Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

This is a second coming reference.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And as all the previous scripture affirm, the bodies of the righteous will be changed to be like His body and that is when immortality is received.
 
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keras

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Actually they all do that. This is what the church has known since the days of the disciples. Those that believe otherwise are in the minority, the incorrect minority. In this case, the majority do have it correct and always have.
No they don't. None of them specify when immortality will be conferred. Only Revelation 20:11-15 does that.
That the majority are wrong, is quite a common thing, most just don't bother to really ascertain the truth and just believe what they are told.
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

This is a second coming reference.
Yes.
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
When are all things subdued to Him?
AFTER the Millennium, that's when. Revelation 20:7-10

I reiterate: it isn't logical or scriptural for any immortal beings other that Jesus, to be present during the Millennium.
 
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DavidPT

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No they don't. None of them specify when immortality will be conferred. Only Revelation 20:11-15 does that.
That the majority are wrong, is quite a common thing, most just don't bother to really ascertain the truth and just believe what they are told.

Yes.

When are all things subdued to Him?
AFTER the Millennium, that's when. Revelation 20:7-10

I reiterate: it isn't logical or scriptural for any immortal beings other that Jesus, to be present during the Millennium.


The first mistake some make is that they are applying 1 Corinthians 15 to all of the dead, both the saved and unsaved, though in context that ch is only involving the saved dead.

For example.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming


Some take verse 22 to be referring to all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved. Yet, in verse 23 it tells us exactly who the 'all' are meaning in this context. Though it is meaning every man, it obviously is not every man both saved and lost, but only every man that is saved. That is proved by what the rest of verse 23 indicates---Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. It would be ludicrous if any of that is also including the unsaved. There are no unsaved mentioned among the following---Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This needs to be kept in mind , context that is, when we get to the following in that same chapter.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Verse 52 states---for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What dead? All of the dead, both the saved and unsaved? Of course not. That would be out of context, not to mention, ludicrous, since that would mean one has to apply verse 57 to the unsaved as well if all the dead mean both the saved and unsaved in this passage. It is ludricrous that the unsaved, who end up cast into the LOF, also have victory through our Lord Jesus Christ, thanks be to God.

Imo, the reason for a lot of misunderstandings in general, is because some are failing to interpret Scriptures in context some of the time. If one misunderstands the context, or ignores the context altogether, how is that same one supposed to be interpreting something correctly to begin with?

Verse 52 indicates there is trumpet sound involved, and that it calls it the last trump. It is ludicrous, assuming a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, that this last trump sounds at the end of that rather than at the beginning of the 2nd coming. Anyone familiar with the NT should already know that there is trumpet involved with the returning of Christ. There is not a single mention anywhere in Revelation 20:11-15 involving the sounding of a trumpet. The reason why, it doesn't fit there, it doesn't belong in that context. The GWTJ is some time post the 2nd coming, and not before or at the same moment the 2nd coming occurs. Whether that means the same day as the 2nd coming, or a thousand years and little season after the 2nd coming, that is debatable. The point being, whenever the GWTJ does commence, it is meaning after the last trump has already sounded at an earlier time. That obviously means that the saved have already put on bodily immortality before the GWTJ even begins.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The first mistake some make is that they are applying 1 Corinthians 15 to all of the dead, both the saved and unsaved, though in context that ch is only involving the saved dead.

For example.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming


Some take verse 22 to be referring to all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved. Yet, in verse 23 it tells us exactly who the 'all' are meaning in this context. Though it is meaning every man, it obviously is not every man both saved and lost, but only every man that is saved. That is proved by what the rest of verse 23 indicates---Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. It would be ludicrous if any of that is also including the unsaved. There are no unsaved mentioned among the following---Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This needs to be kept in mind , context that is, when we get to the following in that same chapter.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Verse 52 states---for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What dead? All of the dead, both the saved and unsaved? Of course not. That would be out of context, not to mention, ludicrous, since that would mean one has to apply verse 57 to the unsaved as well if all the dead mean both the saved and unsaved in this passage. It is ludricrous that the unsaved, who end up cast into the LOF, also have victory through our Lord Jesus Christ, thanks be to God.

Imo, the reason for a lot of misunderstandings in general, is because some are failing to interpret Scriptures in context some of the time. If one misunderstands the context, or ignores the context altogether, how is that same one supposed to be interpreting something correctly to begin with?

Verse 52 indicates there is trumpet sound involved, and that it calls it the last trump. It is ludicrous, assuming a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, that this last trump sounds at the end of that rather than at the beginning of the 2nd coming. Anyone familiar with the NT should already know that there is trumpet involved with the returning of Christ. There is not a single mention anywhere in Revelation 20:11-15 involving the sounding of a trumpet. The reason why, it doesn't fit there, it doesn't belong in that context. The GWTJ is some time post the 2nd coming, and not before or at the same moment the 2nd coming occurs. Whether that means the same day as the 2nd coming, or a thousand years and little season after the 2nd coming, that is debatable. The point being, whenever the GWTJ does commence, it is meaning after the last trump has already sounded at an earlier time. That obviously means that the saved have already put on bodily immortality before the GWTJ even begins.

This is typical of the confusion Premil produces.
 
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DavidPT

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This is typical of the confusion Premil produces.


What exactly is it that you are disagreeing with me about? Do you disagree that the saved put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, and that this is meaning before the GWTJ has ever begun? Do you disagree that the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 only involves the saved dead, and not also the unsaved dead? Do you disagree that every man in his order, verse 23, is only meaning the saved and not also the unsaved? Do you disagree that context, in general, determines the meaning of something? Why make this about Premil? What does Premil have to do with believing that the saved put on bodily immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming? Even Amils believe the same.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You are all confused and mistaken.
Revelation 20:4 is crystal clear: .....I saw the souls of those, who for the sake of God's Word had been beheaded, Those who had not worshipped the 'beast' and its image, or received it mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

ONLY the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-8, will be raised back to life at Jesus' Return.
Why are you willing to contradict what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56? In passages like those he clearly indicates that all believers, including himself and all of the dead in Christ, would be "changed" to be immortal.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 he very specifically indicated that those who have died and who belong to Christ would be resurrected at His second coming, not just some. Why do you try to get around that?

You have to take all of scripture into account here rather than drawing conclusions just from one passage. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 simply contradicts what Paul taught about the resurrection of the dead. Which means you need to start over and figure out how to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that you're not contradicting other clear scripture.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Though I don't disagree with some of your arguments, such as what you argued in the 2nd paragraph, in Revelation 20:12-15 it describes everyone at that resurrection as the dead, which I take to mean the dead that have been resurrected bodily. How does anyone that gets raptured, for example, somehow then die in order to be raised with the dead? How can there be one single person at the GWTJ that hasn't been bodily resurrected from the dead?
Why couldn't there be? I already pointed out that just because a certain group isn't mentioned in a particular passage doesn't mean that group can't have anything to do with the event mentioned in that passage.

I gave the example of 2 Thess 1:7-10 which describes Jesus taking vengeance on His enemies when He comes. That is not mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13-17, but that doesn't mean the 2 passages are speaking of completely different events at completely different times, right? Both happen at the second coming. Not every passage regarding a biblical event contains all of the details regarding that event.

In this case, those who survive what is described in Revelation 20:9 are not specifically mentioned as being there at the GWTJ, but that does not necessarily mean they are not there. If it did mean that then we could also conclude that Jesus won't deal with His enemies when He comes because that isn't mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13:17. But, we can't interpret scripture like that.

If the ones who survive what is described in Revelation 20:9 don't appear before the throne of judgment then how do you explain passages like Romans 14:10-12 or Acts 17:30-31 which indicate that all people (believers and unbelievers) will stand before God to give an account of themselves, including believers? When would those who survive Rev 20:9 stand before the throne if not at the same time those who are resurrected do?

Every group mentioned at the GWTJ, they are described as the dead. No one that puts on immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming could possibly still be described as the dead from that point forward. Or do you disagree and instead think, though a person has already put on bodily immortality, from God's perspective they are still the dead? If that is true, when do they ever stop being the dead, from God's perspective?
No, that isn't how I see it. There will obviously be some who are alive when Christ returns who will not die and will instead instantly be changed at that time (1 Cor 15:50-54).

There is another option though Amils obviously reject it, and even some Premils. There is a judgment at the beginning of the thousand years, this being a judgment involving the saved. Revelation 20:4 mentions judgment. No one would propose that that judgment is meaning the GWTJ after the thousand years, right? What do Amils make of that judgment? Unfortunately, Amils have very little to say about that judgment mentioned in that verse. I don't know why, though? It clearly mentions judgment in that verse.
It mentions judgment, but does not mention anyone actually being judged at that time. I believe the context indicates that the ones on the thrones are given authority during that time, which is why in verse 6 it says "they shall be priests of God and of Christ". But, there is no description of them (or of God) actually judging anyone at that time (at the beginning of the thousand years).

Also, Matthew 25:31-46 portrays all people being judged at the same time as well. Why would God want to judge people at more than one time, anyway? Have you thought about that?
 
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sovereigngrace

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What exactly is it that you are disagreeing with me about? Do you disagree that the saved put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, and that this is meaning before the GWTJ has ever begun? Do you disagree that the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 only involves the saved dead, and not also the unsaved dead? Do you disagree that every man in his order, verse 23, is only meaning the saved and not also the unsaved? Do you disagree that context, in general, determines the meaning of something? Why make this about Premil? What does Premil have to do with believing that the saved put on bodily immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming? Even Amils believe the same.

One Premil argument takes out another Premil argument, thus leaving the doctrine in pieces. Amil abides the scrutiny of Scripture. You are right that the second coming is the only time of glorification and ushering in of immortality. You are wrong in ushering dying and crying and sin and sinners into the age to come. That is blatantly unbiblical. Keras is right that the last trumpet occurs at the GWT, but fails to locate it in its correct place at the second coming.
 
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DavidPT

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The error you constantly make is that you do not seem to have the capability of divorcing yourself from your Premil teaching when analyzing Amil. That is why you jump to so many false conclusions. You examine Amil through Premil glasses. This is not wise.


What glasses would you propose the following by me is being examined through? I don't see me examining these through any glasses, Premil or Amil. I just see me trying to make sense out of the texts involved and what it all might add up to. If I'm correct about any of what I submit below, how can Amils still be correct that the the GWTJ is something that takes place at the 2nd coming, and that the thousand years are still meaning in this age, not the next age like Premils propose?

When it comes to the Bible and what is written throughout, I don't believe in coincidences myself. Perhaps others might, but I don't. To illustrate what I'm meaning here, if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'and judgment was given', a phrase found in Revelation 20:4, that exact English rendered phrase is found in only 2 passages total, and here are the passages.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Someone is clearly trying to tell us something here, though some might chalk this up as a mere coincedence, thus the passages are not connected in any way whatsoever.

If we were to combine both passages into one, like such, this is what we end up with. But before we do that we need to add Daniel 7:21 first, since Daniel 7:22 is obviously meaning chronologically after verse 21.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

If we then combine everything together, it might look like such.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Unless one is a Preterist with an obvious misunderstanding of the timing of events involving any of the above, no one else should be applying the ending of Daniel 7:21 any other place besides in the end of this age at the 2nd coming. That is where and what ends the war between the little horn and the saints, the 2nd coming. That obviously means that the coming in Daniel 7:22 by the Ancient of days is meaning the 2nd coming. Some might argue that Daniel 7:13 shows that the Ancient of days is meaning the Father though, not Christ( I don't disagree that it does), so that proves it is wrong to apply the coming in Daniel 7:22 to that of the 2nd coming.

But, if we were to compare something in Daniel 7 with something in the gospel accounts and something in Revelation, no one should argue that the latter 2 are not meaning Christ.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Compared with----


John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


Clearly, Daniel 7:9 involves judgment and that it indicates the Ancient of days did sit. And that John 5:22 indicates that the Father has committed all judgment unto the Son. Therefore, the Ancient of days meant in Daniel 7:9 can't be meaning the Father, but is instead meaning Christ. If it is not required that the Ancient of days has to be meaning the Father in Daniel 7:9, that indicates that the same can be true of the Ancient of days mentioned in Daniel 7:22, that that is not meaning the Father either, but is meaning Christ and the 2nd coming, therefore giving us the correct timing of the thousand years, that they are post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming like Amils insist.
 
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sovereigngrace

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What glasses would you propose the following by me is being examined through? I don't see me examining these through any glasses, Premil or Amil. I just see me trying to make sense out of the texts involved and what it all might add up to. If I'm correct about any of what I submit below, how can Amils still be correct that the the GWTJ is something that takes place at the 2nd coming, and that the thousand years are still meaning in this age, not the next age like Premils propose?

When it comes to the Bible and what is written throughout, I don't believe in coincidences myself. Perhaps others might, but I don't. To illustrate what I'm meaning here, if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'and judgment was given', a phrase found in Revelation 20:4, that exact English rendered phrase is found in only 2 passages total, and here are the passages.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Someone is clearly trying to tell us something here, though some might chalk this up as a mere coincedence, thus the passages are not connected in any way whatsoever.

If we were to combine both passages into one, like such, this is what we end up with. But before we do that we need to add Daniel 7:21 first, since Daniel 7:22 is obviously meaning chronologically after verse 21.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

If we then combine everything together, it might look like such.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Unless one is a Preterist with an obvious misunderstanding of the timing of events involving any of the above, no one else should be applying the ending of Daniel 7:21 any other place besides in the end of this age at the 2nd coming. That is where and what ends the war between the little horn and the saints, the 2nd coming. That obviously means that the coming in Daniel 7:22 by the Ancient of days is meaning the 2nd coming. Some might argue that Daniel 7:13 shows that the Ancient of days is meaning the Father though, not Christ( I don't disagree that it does), so that proves it is wrong to apply the coming in Daniel 7:22 to that of the 2nd coming.

But, if we were to compare something in Daniel 7 with something in the gospel accounts and something in Revelation, no one should argue that the latter 2 are not meaning Christ.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Compared with----


John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


Clearly, Daniel 7:9 involves judgment and that it indicates the Ancient of days did sit. And that John 5:22 indicates that the Father has committed all judgment unto the Son. Therefore, the Ancient of days meant in Daniel 7:9 can't be meaning the Father, but is instead meaning Christ. If it is not required that the Ancient of days has to be meaning the Father in Daniel 7:9, that indicates that the same can be true of the Ancient of days mentioned in Daniel 7:22, that that is not meaning the Father either, but is meaning Christ and the 2nd coming, therefore giving us the correct timing of the thousand years, that they are post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming like Amils insist.

What you insist upon actually reinforces Amil.

Daniel 7:21-22: I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

Amillennialists normally relate Daniel 7:21-22 to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that. They correlate that with Revelation 20 and the depicted victory that marks those who die in Christ during this current era. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 starts at the first resurrection and shows an ongoing period of victory for the saints over sin, death, the beast and Satan. The saints that survived this awful persecution continued to reign in supernatural power as the kingdom of God invaded the nations. The Gospel could not be stopped. The fire of Revival spread from nation to nation as the Church implemented the great commission. Despite the unprecedented opposition, the heathen Gentile world began to embrace the truth in their millions. As kings and priests the Church carried authority. Revelation 20 depicts even the dead in Christ reign in power and victory. They are shown to possess the kingdom of God and exercise judgement over the kingdom of darkness.

The word "came" in Daniel 7:22 meta' (Aramaic) (met-aw'); or metah (Aramaic) (met-aw') means to arrive, extend or happen. There is nothing in its usage or context that require a literal presence. Words can be used for a literal or spiritual manifestation of God.
 
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jeffweedaman

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One Premil argument takes out another Premil argument, thus leaving the doctrine in pieces. Amil abides the scrutiny of Scripture. You are right that the second coming is the only time of glorification and ushering in of immortality. You are wrong in ushering dying and crying and sin and sinners into the age to come. That is blatantly unbiblical. Keras is right that the last trumpet occurs at the GWT, but fails to locate it in its correct place at the second coming.


Amen Bro.
(staff edit)
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

I was hoping they could explain how our glorification and their eternal separation could happen at the same time as his appearing.
 
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Timtofly

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You have to take all of scripture into account here rather than drawing conclusions just from one passage. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 simply contradicts what Paul taught about the resurrection of the dead. Which means you need to start over and figure out how to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that you're not contradicting other clear scripture.
Well conflating Revelation 20 with the present clearly contradicts all Scripture dealing with the return of Christ. Now it may have similar words as some obscure out of context passages, but we are talking about a particular topic, not searching all the same words found in the Bible and taking them out of context.

The only difference between you and Keras is the word 1000. Both sides do not accept any physical resurrection until the GWT event. You have to admit that your eschatology is also based on Revelation 20 as well. It is your final recap and the most important in including all your physical resurrection details, that is lacking in the other recaps. Except you claim both resurrections are the same one and exclude the word 1000 like a fly in ointment. It is there, but "not really".
 
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DavidPT

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I was hoping they could explain how our glorification and their eternal separation could happen at the same time as his appearing.


I would not go as far as saying it could happen at the same time. Perhaps it could happen the same day, but that is not the same as it happening at the same time. No matter how one looks at it, when the 2nd coming begins the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture. This alone proves that all of these events can't happen at the same time, since 'first' clearly describes something chronological unless one wants to argue that 'first' has zero to do with any chronology.

When the dead in Christ rise first and the rapture then follows, these events happen at the last trump. And until Christ fulfills Revelation 19:21 first, which is something He obviously does not do until after the dead in Christ have already risen and that the rapture has already taken place, this alone plainly tells us that the GWTJ can't already be in progress in the meantime.

The following is the correct chronology of events, meaning after the dead in Christ have already risen and that the rapture has already taken place.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Followed by---

Revelation 20:11-15.

But that doesn't necessarily mean it follows Revelation 19:21 that very same day. It just means that Revelation 20:11-15 can't occur until Revelation 19:21 has already occured first. Even if all these events happen during the same day, it still makes zero sense that anyone who has already put on bodily immortality at the last trump somehow end up among the dead at the GWTJ.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I would not go as far as saying it could happen at the same time. Perhaps it could happen the same day, but that is not the same as it happening at the same time. No matter how one looks at it, when the 2nd coming begins the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture. This alone proves that all of these events can't happen at the same time, since 'first' clearly describes something chronological unless one wants to argue that 'first' has zero to do with any chronology.

When the dead in Christ rise first and the rapture then follows, these events happen at the last trump. And until Christ fulfills Revelation 19:21 first, which is something He obviously does not do until after the dead in Christ have already risen and that the rapture has already taken place, this alone plainly tells us that the GWTJ can't already be in progress in the meantime.

The following is the correct chronology of events, meaning after the dead in Christ have already risen and that the rapture has already taken place.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Followed by---

Revelation 20:11-15.

But that doesn't necessarily mean it follows Revelation 19:21 that very same day. It just means that Revelation 20:11-15 can't occur until Revelation 19:21 has already occured first. Even if all these events happen during the same day, it still makes zero sense that anyone who has already put on bodily immortality at the last trump somehow end up among the dead at the GWTJ.

That is all you have: a faulty chronological approach to Rev 19-20. Take that away and you have nothing.
 
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jeffweedaman

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I would not go as far as saying it could happen at the same time. Perhaps it could happen the same day, but that is not the same as it happening at the same time.

Thanks David.
The text clearly states that it happens "on that day".
That day being when he appears in a flame of fire taking vengeance on those who know not God.
Its his sudden appearing that destroys the man of lawlessness.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,



How can that not be the same twinkling of an eye moment?



8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.
 
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