Universal reconciliation

[dayhiker]

yes ... so how does that change whither they have repented 0or not? I don't have a clue what they have done since the died. Nor does anyone else as far as I know.

 

[Light of the East]

They were ambushed meaning they had no idea what happened. Clyde was killed instantly meaning he never knew what happened. Bonnie is reported to have screamed when she saw the back Clyde's head explode. As soon as she screamed the police unloaded 130 rounds non stop.

You see no reason? How about scripture.

Where is the Scripture that limits our change to this life only? Scripture does say that God desires that all be saved - not just a few or the "elect." If God desires this, then is He so impotent that He cannot bring to pass what He desires to do? What if this life is just the first of several stages and opportunities for change and repentance?

Why do people get so upset at the idea of a God whose love is so strong, so beyond any imagination that we can have, that when we describe Him as giving unlimited opportunities to mankind, whom He loves, they start rending their garments and screaming "heretic!" One would think that they would rejoice in God's immense mercy if these things are true. The God of most of Christendom more resembles the angry deities of paganism than the God of love

 

[Hillsage]

Where is the Scripture that limits our change to this life only? Scripture does say that God desires that all be saved - not just a few or the "elect." If God desires this, then is He so impotent that He cannot bring to pass what He desires to do? What if this life is just the first of several stages and opportunities for change and repentance?

Why do people get so upset at the idea of a God whose love is so strong, so beyond any imagination that we can have, that when we describe Him as giving unlimited opportunities to mankind, whom He loves, they start rending their garments and screaming "heretic!" One would think that they would rejoice in God's immense mercy if these things are true. The God of most of Christendom more resembles the angry deities of paganism than the God of love

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --

Amazing how 'they' can read and never see what is clearly written. They boldly quote verse 8, to support their own 'deservedness', of salvation. But then they limit God , in the very context of scripture, to this AGE only. It's simply a myopic vision producing a near sighted theology. Never allowing that "God may be all in all".

PHI 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[BukiRob]

yes ... so how does that change whither they have repented 0or not? I don't have a clue what they have done since the died. Nor does anyone else as far as I know.

You have this lifetime to decide. Once you die, then you are judged.

 

[Hillsage]

You have this lifetime to decide. Once you die, then you are judged.

HEB 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Gee, I wonder who's died that is going to be eagerly waiting to be saved from their sin by a judgment from Christ, who'd already dealt with sin's punishment for all? It can't be YOU, "waiting to be saved" because YOU'RE already SAVED...right? So I think it just 'might be' those who the bible says were never "predestined, called, chosen, drawn and lastly ordained to believe" in this age. But hey, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Although, I gotta admit, you aren't doing much of a job convincing me so far.

 

[dayhiker]

I still don't see where this verse says a person can't repent after they are judged.

 

[Chriliman]

HEB 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Gee, I wonder who's died that is going to be eagerly waiting to be saved from their sin by a judgment from Christ, who'd already dealt with sin's punishment for all? It can't be YOU, "waiting to be saved" because YOU'RE already SAVED...right? So I think it just 'might be' those who the bible says were never "predestined, called, chosen, drawn and lastly ordained to believe" in this age. But hey, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Although, I gotta admit, you aren't doing much of a job convincing me so far.

I'm curious, how does this view coincide with this verse?

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Your view seems to indicate that all will be forgiven, it's just a matter of time/ages.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm curious, how does this view coincide with this verse?

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Your view seems to indicate that all will be forgiven, it's just a matter of time/ages.

That verse was spoken when Jesus was alive in 'which age'? I honestly don't know.

This verse below was written 60 years later. So as you can see there may be unforgiveness in the age of the law when Jesus spoke it, and not in the church age which followed. But what of the next age? If those are even fair 'ages' to talk about.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Hope that helps.

 

[Chriliman]

That verse was spoken when Jesus was alive in 'which age'? I honestly don't know.

This verse below was written 60 years later. So as you can see there may be unforgiveness in the age of the law when Jesus spoke it, and not in the church age which followed. But what of the next age? If those are even fair 'ages' to talk about.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Hope that helps.

Yes, thank you. Jesus did say that he will be with the disciples until the end of the age, which to me would indicate that upon his death at the cross an age ended and a new age began.

Matthew 28:20
"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Here Jesus clearly informs his disciples that he is going away, but he will send the helper.

John 16:1-8
16 “These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

 

[2KnowHim]

Why do people get so upset at the idea of a God whose love is so strong, so beyond any imagination that we can have, that when we describe Him as giving unlimited opportunities to mankind, whom He loves, they start rending their garments and screaming "heretic!" One would think that they would rejoice in God's immense mercy if these things are true. The God of most of Christendom more resembles the angry deities of paganism than the God of love

Why you asked?....Because when it comes right down to it, they are of "works of the law" not of faith in Christ.
They believe they did something to get saved, and others didn't, so therefore God would not possibly save them if they didn't do the same works they did. They have literally changed the Gift of "Repentance" to a work of the flesh, instead of a "Gift by The Father". Another words they did it, so everyone should have, and if they don't then they have no hope.

2Ti 2:25 in meekness instructing those opposing--if perhaps God may give to them repentance to an acknowledging of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[2KnowHim]

God's Mercy endures forever, it doesn't end when we lay down this flesh suit.

Psa_118:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa_118:2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa_118:3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa_118:4 Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa_118:29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, thank you. Jesus did say that he will be with the disciples until the end of the age, which to me would indicate that upon his death at the cross an age ended and a new age began.

Matthew 28:20
"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Thank you Chriliman, I'd actually forgotten about 'that' verse.

 

[Der Alte]

Where is the Scripture that limits our change to this life only? Scripture does say that God desires that all be saved - not just a few or the "elect." If God desires this, then is He so impotent that He cannot bring to pass what He desires to do? What if this life is just the first of several stages and opportunities for change and repentance?

Why do people get so upset at the idea of a God whose love is so strong, so beyond any imagination that we can have, that when we describe Him as giving unlimited opportunities to mankind, whom He loves, they start rending their garments and screaming "heretic!" One would think that they would rejoice in God's immense mercy if these things are true. The God of most of Christendom more resembles the angry deities of paganism than the God of love

Some time ago while reviewing the context of a certain proof text I happened upon this passage. from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

God's will was "so have I caused to cleave[ הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear. Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[dayhiker]

But God's mercy shows up even after His destruction happens.
Paul talking in Rom.11 at the end of 3 chapters talking about Israel's unbelief and the Gentiles being graphed in by their belief says this of Israel in Rom.11

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

 

[Der Alte]

I still don't see where this verse says a person can't repent after they are judged.

Luk 16:25-26
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

 

[BukiRob]

HEB 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Gee, I wonder who's died that is going to be eagerly waiting to be saved from their sin by a judgment from Christ, who'd already dealt with sin's punishment for all? It can't be YOU, "waiting to be saved" because YOU'RE already SAVED...right? So I think it just 'might be' those who the bible says were never "predestined, called, chosen, drawn and lastly ordained to believe" in this age. But hey, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Although, I gotta admit, you aren't doing much of a job convincing me so far.

In your myopic world you get to do whatever you want with no consequences.... you CLEARLY do not understand Paul and that comes from REFUSING to understand or read scripture from a jewish mindset which leads to this kind of horrific error

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

God's Mercy endures forever, it doesn't end when we lay down this flesh suit..

God's mercy endures because God endures and is merciful;
YOU as a sinning human being do not endure forever, are no longer doing wrong with a body on earth, after a while.

Only one life will soon be past - only what's done FOR CHRIST (during that life, when you as a human being CAN do something) will last.

If you are not talking about human BEINGS, if you are talking about what does NOT have a "flesh suit," what do you take yourself to be talking about?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

[Light of the East said]

Sheerest TOTAL SPECULATION.

 

[Hillsage]

In your myopic world you get to do whatever you want with no consequences.... you CLEARLY do not understand Paul and that comes from REFUSING to understand or read scripture from a jewish mindset which leads to this kind of horrific error

I am "REFUSING to understand or read scripture" from your mindset which is really what you are taking an offense at IMO. I just might 'see' a little better 'than you think'. I say that because you're last statement goes from myopic to blind. I do not believe anyone is getting away with 'no consequences' to sin. If you haven't SEEN that, then it's really helps others to 'see' why you come in blasting with the authority of a Bonnie/Clyde based OPINION....which I believe I've scripturally refuted and you've never rebutted.

 

[dayhiker]

Luk 16:25-26
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

I have thought about these verses, and since there is no indication that the rich man as any desire to repent of course he can't leave or be comforted by someone coming to see him. So I don't see this verse saying a person who repents can't get out of the place of separation.