Universal reconciliation

[cgaviria]

By this statement ...... then it has not yet been revealed to you that what they ate of in the garden was "law" because the law is what reveals unrighteousness (nakedness)

This is what is meant when we read for by the law is the knowledge of sin, Adam only partook of one half of the communion, this we see at the mount of transfiguration, Christ is the law and the prophets in One, the prophets being the Spirit of the law, the true understanding of it, which is the wine in communion.

When we partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) without His Spirit (wine) the word will always become a law that will bring forth judgment upon ourselves which results in death, but to partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) WITH the wine (His Spirit) it will always produce righteousness which results in Life, which results in (reveals) Christ in you.

The communion is not what causes Christ to be in you, because it if were, then how would it be possible to eat of it in unworthy manner? It is THE SPIRIT that causes Christ to be in YOU, because it is the SAME SPIRIT that was in HIM. ONCE YOU HAVE THIS SAME SPIRIT, are you THEN WORTHY TO PARTAKE IN THE COMMUNION. The communion is a COMMAND to those that are in Christ, but you can only be IN CHRIST if you have the Spirit. So there is something of greater importance here than just the communion. Do YOU have the Spirit? Having the Spirit comes with obvious signs. Read my post about it, http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-ability-to-stop-sinning-powered-by-the-spirit.7919151/

 

[2KnowHim]

By this statement ...... then it has not yet been revealed to you that what they ate of in the garden was "law" because the law is what reveals unrighteousness (nakedness)

This is what is meant when we read for by the law is the knowledge of sin, Adam only partook of one half of the communion, this we see at the mount of transfiguration, Christ is the law and the prophets in One, the prophets being the Spirit of the law, the true understanding of it, which is the wine in communion.

When we partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) without His Spirit (wine) the word will always become a law that will bring forth judgment upon ourselves which results in death, but to partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) WITH the wine (His Spirit) it will always produce righteousness which results in Life, which results in (reveals) Christ in you.

Yes exactly, For the letter kills but The Spirit gives Life.
The Tree of Life and The tree of tkogae are ONE.
It has to do with our perception of it.

God's Word is Spirit and Life and cannot be broken, it is ONE.

 

[Der Alte]

I did actually make the link. Notice the usage of the worm and fire in both scriptures. They are both WITHOUT a question related. Let me requote the scriptures for you:

And they shall go forth, and shall see the carcasses of men, the ones violating against me. For their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be extinguished. And they will be for a sight to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 [ABP])

And heres the other,

[47] And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out! [*2*good *3*to you *1*For it is] [*2*one-eyed *1*to enter] into the kingdom of God, rather than [*2*two *3*eyes *1*having] to be thrown into the Gehenna of fire, [48] where their worm does not come to an end, and the fire is not extinguished.
(Mark 9:47-48 [ABP])

The connection between the two IS OBVIOUS. Therefore, you must conclude, that whatever Isaiah says about that same event, must also apply. And in the same event, does he declare that the carcasses of men will be visible. And as I explained, you can only have a carcass if YOU DIE. And not only will THEY DIE. But they will be A SIGHT TO ALL FLESH. Meaning who? People THAT ARE ALIVE ON THE EARTH. So this ALSO indicates that this fire WILL EXIST ON THE EARTH.

Also, regardless of who believed what, its not really my concern, my concern is scripture. The scripture teaches this and this is what it says.

Your concern may be scripture but individual interpretation of scripture out of its historical context means nothing. We can't just make up our own interpretation. You are applying your own individual 21st century interpretation to scripture which was spoken to 1st century Jews in Israel. What the Jews whom Jesus was addressing believed about Isaiah 66:24 is important, not what you believe today. If you ignore that context your views on what the scripture means is no more valid than the interpretation of any number of controversial theology groups. If Jesus thought the last part of Isa 66:24 was relevant to what He was saying He would have included it.

 

[cgaviria]

this generation? A significant expression, occurring sixteen times (Mat_11:16; Mat_12:41, Mat_12:42; Mat_23:36; Mat_24:34. Mar_8:12, Mar_8:12; Mar_13:30. Luk_7:31; Luk_11:30, Luk_11:31, Luk_11:32, Luk_11:50, Luk_11:51; Luk_17:25; Luk_21:32). Characterized by other epithets, "evil" and "adulterous" (Mat_12:39, Mat_12:45; Mat_16:4. Mar_8:38. Luk_11:29); "faithless and perverse" (Mat_17:17. Mar_9:19. Luk_9:41); "untoward" (Act_2:40). All this because it was the particular generation that rejected the Messiah.

Strongs
Mat 24:34 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ThisG3778 generationG1074 shall notG3364 pass,G3928 tillG2193 G302 allG3956 these thingsG5023 be fulfilled.G1096
ABP
Mat 24:34 AmenG281 I sayG3004 to you,G1473 In no wayG3766.2 should [2pass awayG3928 G3588 1this generation]G1074 G3778 untilG2193 wheneverG302 allG3956 these things G3778 should come to pass.G1096


Thus says the LORD God, the one judging his people, Behold, I took from out of your hand the cup of the blow, the drinking cup of my rage; and you shall not proceed to drink it any longer. (Isaiah 51:22 [ABP])

Isa. is Heb. not Greek and should be noted....
Isa 51:22 ThusH3541 saithH559 thy LordH113 the LORD,H3068 and thy GodH430 that pleadeth the causeH7378 of his people,H5971 Behold,H2009 I have takenH3947 out of thine handH4480 H3027 (H853) the cupH3563 of trembling,H8653 even(H853) the dregsH6907 of the cupH3563 of my fury;H2534 thou shalt noH3808 moreH3254 drinkH8354 it again:H5750

I am quoting you a scripture in Isaiah from the Greek Septuagint, which is the old testament in Greek, and that same word is used there. But even so, lets say FINE, Isaiah was written in Hebrew, how about the 674 other references, 672 of them are in the new testament? Take a pick! Pick any of the 672 references, here in TWO SCRIPTURES in the NEW TESTATMENT, WRITTEN IN GREEK, using the very same definite article "the"

and saying, Repent! [*6*approaches *1*for *2*the *3*kingdom *4*of the *5*heavens]. (Matthew 3:2 [ABP])

Here is another, if EVEN then you don't believe Matthew was originally in Greek,

For who [*2*knows *1*of men] the things of man, except the spirit of the man, the one in him? So also the things of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. (I Corinthians 2:11 [ABP])

Do you need me to quote all 674 references for you to believe?

 

[2KnowHim]

Do YOU have the Spirit? Having the Spirit comes with obvious signs.

I believe he does, but i have serious doubts about you my friend. Jugghead was not even talking about Communion, he was talking about the tree that Adam ate from in the Garden which is representative of the Law. Which you are a witness to what you have been eating of. Communion is not a Command which is Law, but a privilege and an honor.

 

[cgaviria]

Your concern may be scripture but individual interpretation of scripture out of its historical context means nothing. We can't just make up our own interpretation. You are applying your own individual 21st century interpretation to scripture which was spoken to 1st century Jews in Israel. What the Jews whom Jesus was addressing believed about Isaiah 66:24 is important, not what you believe today. If you ignore that context your views on what the scripture means is no more valid than the interpretation of any number of controversial theology groups. If Jesus thought the last part of Isa 66:24 was relevant to what He was saying He would have included it.

I don't concern myself with who believed what in which century. I concern myself with scripture. The scripture has Isaiah, and it has what Jesus said that quoted it. Are you going to say that those both scriptures are not related even though they are practically verbatim pretty much talking about a same event? Answer me instead of giving me YOUR OWN interpretation. I do have MY OWN interpretation, WE ALL DO, but that is why WE MUST USE SCRIPTURE TO GUIDE US. In reading both of these scriptures, it becomes apparent they are related. AND NOT JUST because of these two scriptures, there are PLENTY of OTHER scriptures supporting they very fact of dead people as a consequence of the fire.

 

[2KnowHim]

Do you need me to quote all 674 references for you to believe?

Why? the scripture in question is "This Generation", not the 600 times the word "the" is trans. in the Greek. in the scripture in Mat. 24: it is "This" not "the".

 

[cgaviria]

I believe he does, but i have serious doubts about you my friend. Jugghead was not even talking about Communion, he was talking about the tree that Adam ate from in the Garden which is representative of the Law. Which you are a witness to what you have been eating of. Communion is not a Command which is Law, but a privilege and an honor.

It is a command from Jesus to observe and those who have the Spirit observe it.

And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (John 22:19)

Sounds like a clear instruction to me. What did God say about the tree?

but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the paradise, God said, Eat not from it, nor touch it! that you should not die. (Genesis 3:3 [ABP])

So we have, "Do this", and then we have "Eat not from it". Both are commands by God. To not follow either command is to disobey God. Yet in following each command, there is a resulting difference. In the disobedience of the first command, is DEATH AND SIN brought forth into the world. And now, IN THE SPIRIT, which FREES YOU FROM THE LAW, IS THE OBEDIENCE FOR YOU TO FOLLOW AFTER GOD, WHICH INCLUDES PARTAKING IN HIS COMMUNION, AND THE YIELD OF ALL THIS IS LIFE.

 

[cgaviria]

Why? the scripture in question is "This Generation", not the 600 times the word "the" is trans. in the Greek. in the scripture in Mat. 24: it is "This" not "the".

DUDE, the EXACT Greek word used in that passage is http://studybible.info/strongs/G3588 . ITS RIGHT THERE. Definite article. Without a doubt.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't concern myself with who believed what in which century. I concern myself with scripture. The scripture has Isaiah, and it has what Jesus said that quoted it. Are you going to say that those both scriptures are not related even though they are practically verbatim pretty much talking about a same event? Answer me instead of giving me YOUR OWN interpretation. I do have MY OWN interpretation, WE ALL DO, but that is why WE MUST USE SCRIPTURE TO GUIDE US. In reading both of these scriptures, it becomes apparent they are related. AND NOT JUST because of these two scriptures, there are PLENTY of OTHER scriptures supporting they very fact of dead people as a consequence of the fire.

What are you talking about "Answer me instead of giving me your own interpretation?" I gave you that back in post #926 Where I quoted or referred to seventeen scripture, including Mark 9:43-48 and Isaiah 66:24. You should concern yourself with what the Jews believed to whom Jesus was talking in the NT and what Jesus said to them as it related to their belief.

 

[brixken7]

God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4). That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it. And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all. "All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the mentally deficient, all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshiped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims? In most people's minds that's indeed very hard to believe -- even for most professing Christians. But as the evangelist Paul Finkenbinder (aka, Hermano Pablo) stated many years ago:

"Pessimism is sin.

"For proof of this he gave the example of how the ancient Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them! But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshiping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11). Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us. Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed among God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people! The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation (in this life) is dependent upon it.

-- Ken

.......................................

 

[ripple the car]

I strongly lean towards and hope for Universal Reconciliation through the judgement of Christ, but don't feel comfortable declaring "all shall be saved", because the Scriptures don't say that. But IMHO the Scriptures say enough on the topic that we can at least *hope* that all may be saved.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I think the bible makes it quite clear not all will have eternal life. I'm not sure about babies or anyone who didn't hear the gospel or died too young to decide. However I know that God is a just God and whatever he decides is fair. If some have eternal life then what happens to those who don't have eternal life? Simple eternal death. Not eternal punishment. Revelation is kind of interesting because it talks about satan being destroyed in the lake of fire. Theres also a passage in the OT that talks about satan being destroyed. Which I really wish I knew what the word destroyed means. But it sounds like annihilation.

Eze 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

It is believed by many that satan and his demons can't die because they are spirits. But it seems to me they suffer total annihilation from ezekiel 28:18

but revelation 20:10 seems to talk as if they exist forever in eternal punishment. Humans though clearly go the route of animals if they don't have the holy spirit. That is for sure.

 

[2KnowHim]

I strongly lean towards and hope for Universal Reconciliation through the judgement of Christ, but don't feel comfortable declaring "all shall be saved", because the Scriptures don't say that. But IMHO the Scriptures say enough on the topic that we can at least *hope* that all may be saved.

For those who don't believe, no proof is acceptable.
For those who do believe, no proof is necessary.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[BukiRob]

For those who don't believe, no proof is acceptable.
For those who do believe, no proof is necessary.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

So Bonnie and Clyde are just as saved as a John the Baptist the only difference is their "reward?" Nah you wont find that in scripture but hey....

 

[Hillsage]

For those who don't believe, no proof is acceptable.
For those who do believe, no proof is necessary.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

Sounds like kings find things 'most' don't.

 

[dayhiker]

Do you know if Bonnie and Clyde have repented yet? I'd say if they have not repented then they aren't in a relationship with God. But if they have then they are in a relationship with God.

 

[BukiRob]

Do you know if Bonnie and Clyde have repented yet? I'd say if they have not repented then they aren't in a relationship with God. But if they have then they are in a relationship with God.

I seriously doubt they had time in the surprise attack of a hail of bullets to do anything but die. They were ambushed Clyde was killed instantly by the first shot, a head shot. Bonnie screamed once and police opened fire, firing 130 rounds into the car. She would have died instantaneously.

 

[dayhiker]

yes, I'm aware of how quick they dies. I'm sure since they got out of so many other scraps they probably thought they might even get out of that one. ... My point is I see no reason God limits repentance to while we are alive on earth so maybe they will repent tomorrow.. or last week or in a century from now.

 

[BukiRob]

yes, I'm aware of how quick they dies. I'm sure since they got out of so many other scraps they probably thought they might even get out of that one. ... My point is I see no reason God limits repentance to while we are alive on earth so maybe they will repent tomorrow.. or last week or in a century from now.

They were ambushed meaning they had no idea what happened. Clyde was killed instantly meaning he never knew what happened. Bonnie is reported to have screamed when she saw the back Clyde's head explode. As soon as she screamed the police unloaded 130 rounds non stop.

You see no reason? How about scripture.