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Universal reconciliation

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I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "thrintoe views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

No, UR is not a heresy (as I pointed out in my previous post).

As to the popular doctrine of "hell", what do the Scriptures teach?

In the seven places that Jesus refers to "hell", the word should be "Gehenna",
Which is from the Greek. Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes to not
sin so bad that might be judged by the Sanhedren (Jewish council) to be cast
into Gehenna.
Gehenna was a place outsie the southern wall of Jerusalem where the
trash and offal was dumped, including dead bodies. Fires were kept
burning to help destroy rubbish and dead bodies. It was a literal place ln
Jesus days on the earth and will be during the Messianic Kingdom on
earth. To be sentenced there means you would be stoned death and your body thrown
Into the burning rubbish heap to be burned and eaten by maggots.

Live humans would be sentenced, not "disembodied souls,"

Only living people are judged.
 
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Tallguy88

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MOD HAT ON

Thread moved from the Liberal forum to here. As a reminder of the rules:

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Universalism may only be discussed here, not anywhere else on CF.

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Der Alte

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No, UR is not a heresy (as I pointed out in my previous post).

As to the popular doctrine of "hell", what do the Scriptures teach?

In the seven places that Jesus refers to "hell", the word should be "Gehenna",
Which is from the Greek. Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes to not
sin so bad that might be judged by the Sanhedren (Jewish council) to be cast
into Gehenna.
Gehenna was a place outsie the southern wall of Jerusalem where the
trash and offal was dumped, including dead bodies. Fires were kept
burning to help destroy rubbish and dead bodies. It was a literal place ln
Jesus days on the earth and will be during the Messianic Kingdom on
earth. To be sentenced there means you would be stoned death and your body thrown
Into the burning rubbish heap to be burned and eaten by maggots.

Live humans would be sentenced, not "disembodied souls,"

Only living people are judged.

You are at best misinformed on a few things. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
 
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James Is Back

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Um UR isn't a heresy really? So everyone is going to Heaven including the unbelievers and satan? So Hitler is in Heaven right now?

It's a heresy through and through whether or not people except that. It's unbiblical and doesn't conform to Christ's teaching on the subject of hell.
 
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Hillsage

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Um UR isn't a heresy really? So everyone is going to Heaven including the unbelievers and satan?
0-1 Again, your question proves you don't understand UR.

So Hitler is in Heaven right now?
0-2, another, NO!
It's a heresy through and through whether or not people except that.
Depends on your definition of 'heresy', as was discussed earlier in this thread. Is it contrary to the 'opinion' of a majority of 'the orthodox church' YES. Is it a false doctrine, in 'my opinion' as well as 'the opinion of many others'...NO.

Have you ever studied the word? Do so, it's only in the bible 9 times. And though the definition doesn't change, the translations sure do lead one down a heretical understanding IMO.

Was PAUL a heretic? YES, by his own admission.

ACT 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul fits my definition of heresy, does he fit YOURS? My guess is 0-3.

It's unbiblical and doesn't conform to Christ's teaching on the subject of hell.
Then you haven't studied enough 'bibles' IMO. Unless of course you 'only' mean 'the bibles' that were translated to fit and to protect your orthodox POV. Many translations don't fit. But they are harder to read...unfortunately. And 'that point' simply proves that any 'bible' is only going to be 'as shallow or as deep', as the person reading it.
Final score...0-? :idea:
 
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hedrick

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Um UR isn't a heresy really? So everyone is going to Heaven including the unbelievers and satan? So Hitler is in Heaven right now?

It's a heresy through and through whether or not people except that. It's unbiblical and doesn't conform to Christ's teaching on the subject of hell.

UR would say that eventually every one is reconciled. According to this, when Hitler eventually gets to heaven, he will be repentant, and will accept Christ. I don't think this is obviously heretical, though I also don't think it's what the Biblical evidence points to. However the Biblical evidence is not that clear-cut. Paul can reasonably be read as supporting UR. The problem is that I don't think Jesus can. But there's enough symbolism in all of the discussions of judgement that people can legitimately disagree on what it means. That's why there are 3 views.

I think we have to face the fact that God may not have intended to give a specific picture of judgement. Why not? Maybe what will really happen is something we wouldn't understand. Maybe there are dangers to being too sure about judgement.
 
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hedrick

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ACT 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul fits my definition of heresy, does he fit YOURS?

Huh? Paul was speaking of Christianity, which was viewed by Jews as heresy. Anyone who believes traditional Christian doctrine would be heretical by Jewish standards. But that's hardly what people mean when they say that UR is heretical.
 
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Hillsage

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UR would say that eventually every one is reconciled.
Actually that statement is really only 'half right' IMO. Aren't ALL, already reconciled according to scripture?

2CO 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


So does reconciliation really need to take place...or just fulfilled bilaterally? IOW does God have a problem with man's sin, or does sinful man still have a problem with our forgiving God?

2CO 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Is not 'the good news', which we are to preach....'GOD has dealt with YOUR sin through HIS SON'? So do they have to accept Jesus to BE forgiven? Or do I have to accept Jesus to FEEL His forgiveness?

According to this, when Hitler eventually gets to heaven, he will be repentant, and will accept Christ.
I think that's a fair assumption from my POV. :) Though I do believe that he will go through his own judgment in 'the age to come' also. It is that judgment which will make him truly repentant. The end purpose of all God's judgments is to bring to pass His righteousness and redemption.

I don't think this is obviously heretical, though I also don't think it's what the Biblical evidence points to.
And whether or not UR is right, or orthodoxy is right,...it is obvious to me that your heart attitude is right, even though we might disagree. Cause I think I am a heretic. :p

However the Biblical evidence is not that clear-cut.
:amen::amen:and again I say :amen: A statement indicating to me, that you have studied enough to at least see more clearly than most IMO.

I think we have to face the fact that God may not have intended to give a specific picture of judgement. Why not? Maybe what will really happen is something we wouldn't understand. Maybe there are dangers to being too sure about judgement.
Again, an attitude I respect. You have the opinion that you are right, yet reserve the believe that your opinion doesn't mean everyone who disagrees is 'WRONG'!
 
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SarahsKnight

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I think that's a fair assumption from my POV. :) Though I do believe that he will go through his own judgment in 'the age to come' also. It is that judgment which will make him truly repentant. The end purpose of all God's judgments is to bring to pass His righteousness and redemption.

To me, although I personally and an annihilationist, I am open to universal reconciliation because, for one, it seems to me that this theology allows for both God's righteous indignation against evil and will to redeem all that is indicated in a few Bible verses. In the UR theology, people like Hitler will still be appropriately punished, but will eventually bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord as well. So it's like everyone who does wrong - us included, as we here may be believers but we have also sinned, and may it never be that I pretend to have not - will be punished as a wayward child for redemptive purposes rather than endlessly as a "loathsome insect" (quote taken from Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon about hell) not even worthy of death but permanent torment. And, yeah, I know, Heaven forbid God intend to bring good out of punishing His enemies rather than be vengeful and mad for eternity. What an evil heresy UR is! (and note my sarcasm).
 
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Hillsage

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Huh? Paul was speaking of Christianity, which was viewed by Jews as heresy.
I agree.

Anyone who believes traditional Christian doctrine would be heretical by Jewish standards.
I agree.

But that's hardly what people mean when they say that UR is heretical.
I agree, but would say 'some people' mean.

My use of Acts is to simply prove that heresy doesn't fit 'some people's' definition of it meaning 'a lie/false'. Since Paul was agreeing that he, as a believer in Christ, was guilty of being a heretic. That's why I believe in the definition of 'having a minority belief', is correct one. That is also the usage of the Greek word haresis when studied in scripture.

Those who are 'assuming' it is a lie, do so because it disagrees with 'their' indoctrinated POV. I hope this makes more sense to you, as to where I'm coming from?
 
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brixken7

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"There were distinguished advocates for universal reconciliation in the early Church as well, but it seems always to have been a minority viewpoint.
Jesus definitely speaks of varying degrees of reward and punishment. See also 1 Cor 3:12 ff. However it's remarkably hard to put together a picture of just how judgement will be done. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Jesus didn't think we need to know. Differing levels of reward, and 1 Cor 3:12 are still compatible with the idea that there are people who are genuinely enemies of Christ, and who are eternally lost.
I will say that few commentators understand Mat 25:46 as Barclay does, in part because his understanding of "kolasis" isn't supported by its use elsewhere. My sense is that a liberal who believes in Universal Reconciliation is more likely to say that Mat 25:46 isn't Jesus' words. I wish I could find an advocate of universalism whose Biblical exegesis is trustworthy.
Paul has places where he looks universalist, but it's not so clear that you can maintain this consistently for him. Jesus can possibly be understood as teaching annihilation, though again, it's not so clear that this can plausibly be maintained consistently across all his teaching. You really need to check the exegesis behind these interpretations, and you need to verify their claims about how words were used and about 1st Cent Jewish traditions. I've found plausible-sounding but wrong claims pretty much everywhere.
.........
""There were distinguished advocates for universal reconciliation in the early Church as well, but it seems always to have been a minority viewpoint." -- hedrick

No, not "always".

I want to quote from a reviewer of the book, "UNIVERSALISM: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First 500 Years" (by John Wesley Hanson):

"Universalism was nowhere denounced in those early centuries, even when various prominent figures were compiling and publishing various lists of heresies at the same time that outspoken Universalists such as Origen, Clement, and Gregory Nyssa were in the public eye, without this truth being mentioned in any of the lists at any time.
There are many more interesting and revealing points made by the author throughout the work, and he does a masterful job at showing how the belief in Christ's atoning sacrifice being ultimately triumphant over all only began to die when the light of the Greek speaking church era gave way to the long Latin night. "

Would you care to elaborate as to what you meant when you stated, "I wish I could find an advocate of universalism whose Biblical exegesis is trustworthy."

-- brixken7
 
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Ripheus27

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I believe in Hell, but don't think anyone should go there, no matter how sinful and no matter how impenitent. So I see the creation of Hell as a flaw in the Creator. (Going along with Hell, as Satan does, is no better, though; and so I don't think we should obey Satan but God, even though He did something questionable at the beginning of time.)
 
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Der Alte

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.........
""There were distinguished advocates for universal reconciliation in the early Church as well, but it seems always to have been a minority viewpoint." -- hedrick

No, not "always".

I want to quote from a reviewer of the book, "UNIVERSALISM: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First 500 Years" (by John Wesley Hanson):

"Universalism was nowhere denounced in those early centuries, even when various prominent figures were compiling and publishing various lists of heresies at the same time that outspoken Universalists such as Origen, Clement, and Gregory Nyssa were in the public eye, without this truth being mentioned in any of the lists at any time.
There are many more interesting and revealing points made by the author throughout the work, and he does a masterful job at showing how the belief in Christ's atoning sacrifice being ultimately triumphant over all only began to die when the light of the Greek speaking church era gave way to the long Latin night. "

Would you care to elaborate as to what you meant when you stated, "I wish I could find an advocate of universalism whose Biblical exegesis is trustworthy."

-- brixken7

I have heard these kinds of statements, not a few times, before. They would be more convincing if they quoted Origen, Clement, and Gregory Nyssa supporting Universalism. And FYI there were 2 ECF named Clement. Not identifying which Clement is a big red flag.
 
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brixken7

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I have heard these kinds of statements, not a few times, before. They would be more convincing if they quoted Origen, Clement, and Gregory Nyssa supporting Universalism. And FYI there were 2 ECF named Clement. Not identifying which Clement is a big red flag.
........................................

Do you really WANT to be convinced?!

Most everyone familiar with Christian history knows that the early church father Origen believed and taught universal salvation. Have you never read the book "Christ Triumphant," by Thomas Allin? As an Amazon reviewer of this book has said...

"Every believer should have to read this book. There would be no more question about whether or not Jesus succeeds in His mission to save all mankind."

:clap:

 
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Der Alte

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Do you really WANT to be convinced?!

Most everyone familiar with Christian history knows that the early church father Origen believed and taught universal salvation. Have you never read the book "Christ Triumphant," by Thomas Allin? As an Amazon reviewer of this book has said...

"Every believer should have to read this book. There would be no more question about whether or not Jesus succeeds in His mission to save all mankind."

That is another assertion. If that is true then you should have no problem quoting a few passages where Origen supported Universalism and even if he did, one ECF is not a consensus.
 
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Hillsage

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To me, although I personally and an annihilationist, I am open to universal reconciliation because, for one, it seems to me that this theology allows for both God's righteous indignation against evil and will to redeem all that is indicated in a few Bible verses.
Though I am not of the annihilationist persuasion, my heart certainly agrees more with that POV than the orthodox one. 'It' at least makes the God of annihilation kinder than the God of those who believe He will entertain an eternal Auschwitz more horrid even, than that of Hitler.

In the UR theology, people like Hitler will still be appropriately punished, but will eventually bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord as well. So it's like everyone who does wrong - us included, as we here may be believers but we have also sinned, and may it never be that I pretend to have not - will be punished as a wayward child for redemptive purposes rather than endlessly as a "loathsome insect" (quote taken from Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon about hell) not even worthy of death but permanent torment. And, yeah, I know, Heaven forbid God intend to bring good out of punishing His enemies rather than be vengeful and mad for eternity. What an evil heresy UR is! (and note my sarcasm).
:thumbsup:

HEB 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
 
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Hillsage

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........................................

Do you really WANT to be convinced?!
TOUCHE :thumbsup:

And you can never quote a source that's going to be good enough. That's why I quit posting or reading his stuff anymore. It's all cut/past Jewish Encyclopedia belief at the time of Jesus....HELLO...The Jewish belief at the time of Jesus was corrupt as can be. That's who had all the doctrinal issues with JEsus to begin with. Pharisees and Sadduccees are never mentioned in the OT. Why? Because those heretics never existed until the 400 silent years where the hearts of ruling men were polluted with a religious spirit.

ACT 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect(haresis/heretic) of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And, for those who think Universalism was a MINORITY belief of the early church, here's a question for thought? Was it a majority belief that just didn't happen to be in the theological School of Rome, the place which birthed the church which killed all who ever disagreed with her.

"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years - four were Universalist ( Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa ). One advocated annihilation ( Ephesus ) and one advocated Eternal Hell (the Latin Church of North Africa). Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today.

Another source stating the same;
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96



Most everyone familiar with Christian history knows that the early church father Origen believed and taught universal salvation. Have you never read the book "Christ Triumphant," by Thomas Allin? As an Amazon reviewer of this book has said...
I have Allin's book, it is good.

 
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hedrick

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In a web search I found the following wonderful summary of the history of UR, written by Richard Bauckham: "Universalism: a historical survey" by Richard Bauckham

He isn't (at least in that paper) advocating any specific position, but rather summarizing views, and the associated exegesis. I'm inclined to agree with the implication that there is a genuine tension in the NT between UR and judgement, and that exegeses aimed at interpreting either away are unsuccessful.

Please note that Origen's version of UR is not a precedent I'd expect most of us would want to follow. It's part of a whole mythology involving preexistent souls.
 
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