Universal flood evidence

FaithT

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The notes at the bottom of my Bible say this:<<<<<<<<< Was the flood a local event or did it cover the entire Earth? A universal flood was certainly possible......
Thus this flood must have either covered the entire earth or destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth.>>>>>>>>>>

Does that mean that the Bible is saying it may have been a regional flood that killed all the people who happened to be living in that region?
Where my notes say <<<<<<a universal flood was certainly possible,>>>>>>

and <<<<<<<Thus this flood must have either covered the entire earth or destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth.>>>>>>>>>>

Are the scholars (?) or authors saying that the flood may possibly have been local, not covering the entire earth?
 
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Daniel9v9

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Hey @Hope1960 - Thanks for the invite!

For good order, let me just start by saying that the flood was a real event - it's not an allegory. That would be to impose something foreign and modern on the text. Nor is it a mythical text, like the Gilgamesh or Atrahasis Epics. Unlike those, the Biblical account reads like a true historical account, but one that describes a grand supernatural occurrence; it's a divine miracle and judgment of God.

The plain reading is that "everything with a breath" should perish. So this means all humans and all animals. It excludes sea creatures. We can debate what "all" means, but I think Scriptures are sufficiently clear on that all means all. That is, the Bible does not allow for other human survivors in other parts of the world, for example. But I think at this point in history, which we really don't know much about, life was probably clustered in Central Asia.

Now, what evidence do we have for and against the flood, and whether it was local or universal? No hard evidence either way! Hard science does not disprove the flood, nor does it prove it. All we have is basic scientific assumptions, archaeological and historical data that needs to be interpreted, and that interpretation is shaped by one's philosophy and theology. So, in other words, the flood is a question of faith, not of science, properly speaking.

Providing all life was clustered to a small region of the earth, which is not unlikely, perhaps the flood was local. However, I don't think this reading is necessary, because God is almighty, and He can do what seems impossible to us. For God to cover the whole earth with water, then remove the water and restore the earth, there's really no difficulty. God is not bound by natural law - because He made it and He is above it; it's a mistake to try and measure or test God's divine intervention, because they are miracles. Miracles, by definition, break natural law. The flood was not a natural occurrence, so we shouldn't treat it as such. It's sufficient to trust that God exercised judgment on all sinners, and delivered Noah and his family as a sign of our Baptism in Christ.

I think our best attitude is this: We can be certain that the Biblical account is true, because it is the Word of God. And although the various Epics are not to be compared to the Bible, it's very compelling that we do in fact have different historical records of a flood. But I think whenever we hear about supposed natural evidence for the flood, we should take it with scepticism. More often than not, it's unhelpful pseudo-science.

Instead of Answers in Genesis, which is not Lutheran, I'd recommend looking into the work of Rev. Dr. David L. Adams, who is an expert in the Old Testament and Exegesis. He has a wealth of knowledge to offer regarding the Mosaic books and archaeology, and he is deeply rooted in sound Biblical doctrine.
 
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FaithT

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Hey @Hope1960 - Thanks for the invite!

For good order, let me just start by saying that the flood was a real event - it's not an allegory. That would be to impose something foreign and modern on the text. Nor is it a mythical text, like the Gilgamesh or Atrahasis Epics. Unlike those, the Biblical account reads like a true historical account, but one that describes a grand supernatural occurrence; it's a divine miracle and judgment of God.

The plain reading is that "everything with a breath" should perish. So this means all humans and all animals. It excludes sea creatures. We can debate what "all" means, but I think Scriptures are sufficiently clear on that all means all. That is, the Bible does not allow for other human survivors in other parts of the world, for example. But I think at this point in history, which we really don't know much about, life was probably clustered in Central Asia.

Now, what evidence do we have for and against the flood, and whether it was local or universal? No hard evidence either way! Hard science does not disprove the flood, nor does it prove it. All we have is basic scientific assumptions, archaeological and historical data that needs to be interpreted, and that interpretation is shaped by one's philosophy and theology. So, in other words, the flood is a question of faith, not of science, properly speaking.

Providing all life was clustered to a small region of the earth, which is not unlikely, perhaps the flood was local. However, I don't think this reading is necessary, because God is almighty, and He can do what seems impossible to us. For God to cover the whole earth with water, then remove the water and restore the earth, there's really no difficulty. God is not bound by natural law - because He made it and He is above it; it's a mistake to try and measure or test God's divine intervention, because they are miracles. Miracles, by definition, break natural law. The flood was not a natural occurrence, so we shouldn't treat it as such. It's sufficient to trust that God exercised judgment on all sinners, and delivered Noah and his family as a sign of our Baptism in Christ.

I think our best attitude is this: We can be certain that the Biblical account is true, because it is the Word of God. And although the various Epics are not to be compared to the Bible, it's very compelling that we do in fact have different historical records of a flood. But I think whenever we hear about supposed natural evidence for the flood, we should take it with scepticism. More often than not, it's unhelpful pseudo-science.

Instead of Answers in Genesis, which is not Lutheran, I'd recommend looking into the work of Rev. Dr. David L. Adams, who is an expert in the Old Testament and Exegesis. He has a wealth of knowledge to offer regarding the Mosaic books and archaeology, and he is deeply rooted in sound Biblical doctrine.
Thanks for your input! Good reply!
I started reading AIG because one of my church elders sent me some articles from there. I’ve always thought that their beliefs seemed a little “off”, though.
I have no doubts that the flood was an historical event. It’s just that this thread made me wonder if it was local or universal. I guess we’ll find out the answers to this and many others questions when we get to heaven.
 
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FaithT

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Hey @Hope1960 - Thanks for the invite!

For good order, let me just start by saying that the flood was a real event - it's not an allegory. That would be to impose something foreign and modern on the text. Nor is it a mythical text, like the Gilgamesh or Atrahasis Epics. Unlike those, the Biblical account reads like a true historical account, but one that describes a grand supernatural occurrence; it's a divine miracle and judgment of God.

The plain reading is that "everything with a breath" should perish. So this means all humans and all animals. It excludes sea creatures. We can debate what "all" means, but I think Scriptures are sufficiently clear on that all means all. That is, the Bible does not allow for other human survivors in other parts of the world, for example. But I think at this point in history, which we really don't know much about, life was probably clustered in Central Asia.

Now, what evidence do we have for and against the flood, and whether it was local or universal? No hard evidence either way! Hard science does not disprove the flood, nor does it prove it. All we have is basic scientific assumptions, archaeological and historical data that needs to be interpreted, and that interpretation is shaped by one's philosophy and theology. So, in other words, the flood is a question of faith, not of science, properly speaking.

Providing all life was clustered to a small region of the earth, which is not unlikely, perhaps the flood was local. However, I don't think this reading is necessary, because God is almighty, and He can do what seems impossible to us. For God to cover the whole earth with water, then remove the water and restore the earth, there's really no difficulty. God is not bound by natural law - because He made it and He is above it; it's a mistake to try and measure or test God's divine intervention, because they are miracles. Miracles, by definition, break natural law. The flood was not a natural occurrence, so we shouldn't treat it as such. It's sufficient to trust that God exercised judgment on all sinners, and delivered Noah and his family as a sign of our Baptism in Christ.

I think our best attitude is this: We can be certain that the Biblical account is true, because it is the Word of God. And although the various Epics are not to be compared to the Bible, it's very compelling that we do in fact have different historical records of a flood. But I think whenever we hear about supposed natural evidence for the flood, we should take it with scepticism. More often than not, it's unhelpful pseudo-science.

Instead of Answers in Genesis, which is not Lutheran, I'd recommend looking into the work of Rev. Dr. David L. Adams, who is an expert in the Old Testament and Exegesis. He has a wealth of knowledge to offer regarding the Mosaic books and archaeology, and he is deeply rooted in sound Biblical doctrine.
Would you then call the flood a supernatural occurrence?
 
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Daniel9v9

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Would you then call the flood a supernatural occurrence?

Oh, yes! A supernatural occurrence by the power of God.

Thanks for your input! Good reply!
I started reading AIG because one of my church elders sent me some articles from there. I’ve always thought that their beliefs seemed a little “off”, though.
I have no doubts that the flood was an historical event. It’s just that this thread made me wonder if it was local or universal. I guess we’ll find out the answers to this and many others questions when we get to heaven.

Yeah, that's good - we will see God face to face and be comforted in every way! As Paul says, now we know in part, but soon we will know in full the wonder and glory of God (1 Corinthians 13:9-12). And what a joy that will be! But as for our time on this earth - you're right - let us be content to trust our Father as little children.

God bless! +
 
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FaithT

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Where my notes say <<<<<<a universal flood was certainly possible,>>>>>>

and <<<<<<<Thus this flood must have either covered the entire earth or destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth.>>>>>>>>>>

Are the scholars (?) or authors saying that the flood may possibly have been local, not covering the entire earth?
Are scholars the ones who write the notes at the bottom of Bible pages?
 
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FaithT

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Thanks for your input! Good reply!
I started reading AIG because one of my church elders sent me some articles from there. I’ve always thought that their beliefs seemed a little “off”, though.
I have no doubts that the flood was an historical event. It’s just that this thread made me wonder if it was local or universal. I guess we’ll find out the answers to this and many others questions when we get to heaven.
I always thought some of what AIG writes was a little “off” but until my pastor recently told me that AIG isn’t an LCMS site I thought it was.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Are scholars the ones who write the notes at the bottom of Bible pages?

Yeah, if you own a study Bible, then the notes are provided by a board of Biblical scholars and theologians. Though the notes you'll find tend to be very informed by whatever church body they come out of. As you're LCMS, I can recommend the Lutheran Study Bible, which is very good.

I always thought some of what AIG writes was a little “off” but until my pastor recently told me that AIG isn’t an LCMS site I thought it was.

Ah, yeah. I'm not sure what denominations the contributors to Answers in Genesis are. I'm guessing Evangelical, Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and non-denominational for the most part.
 
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FaithT

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Yeah, if you own a study Bible, then the notes are provided by a board of Biblical scholars and theologians. Though the notes you'll find tend to be very informed by whatever church body they come out of. As you're LCMS, I can recommend the Lutheran Study Bible, which is very good.

Ah, yeah. I'm not sure what denominations the contributors to Answers in Genesis are. I'm guessing Evangelical, Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and non-denominational for the most part.
I have the NIV Life Application Study Bible, which my pastor said was good. I have so many Bibles but use this one the most. Since I have so many Bibles (a lot of Catholic ones) I really can’t buy any more right now but it’s good to know that when I do, there’s a Lutheran Study Bible available.

My husband and his brother were raised Baptist and it was hard core. They went to church on Wednesday nights and I think twice on Sundays. Their preacher would get all riled up, yelling, face turning red, fist banging on the pulpit and sweating. It turned my husband off of organized religion, though he goes with me to church on Christmas and Easter. My brother-in-law was turned off of religion, too but is now going to a contemporary ND church.
 
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Filippus

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You might find the Antikythera mechanism is a 2,000 plus year old computer, showing that our understanding of the ancient world is lacking in almost every aspect. See


I have found the rapid formation of coal also interesting. See below example.


And today we manufacture diamond in a matter of hours.
Suggesting the timeline is flexible.

This just shows that we should be very careful when trying to piece Genesis back together.

Regards
Filip
 
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? OldWiseGuy?

Sorry, I must have been out to lunch when you posted this question. Someone posted on this thread today and thus revived it.

All flood evidence is local regardless of how wide or big the flood is. Evidence depends on topography, vegetation type, soil type, elevation gradient, velocity of inflow and outflow, etc. Also weathering and settling of flood evidence varies over time and distance, making it difficult or impossible to determine a 'global' flood event, leaving similar flood myth and legend among many cultures actually more evidentiary than geology.
 
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ha-adamah

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I recently looked at Answers in Genesis's evidence for a universal flood. Evidence using fossils and the rock layers. I am still unclear about a few things. Is there anyone here that is familiar with the evidence that could answer a few questions?

The flood of the Bible cannot be taken as universal (global) for several simple reasons:

1. The people who wrote the story didn't know what a planet was, how could they describe a planet-wide event?

2. For the people who wrote the story, the "world" was literally the size of Texas.

3. You can never project modern knowledge or meanings into the Bible. Just because we think it was global doesn't mean they did.

Having said that, the flood of Genesis has been confirmed by at least a half dozen ancient sources. There's no question that it did happen.
 
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Filippus

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The flood of the Bible cannot be taken as universal (global) for several simple reasons:

1. The people who wrote the story didn't know what a planet was, how could they describe a planet-wide event?

2. For the people who wrote the story, the "world" was literally the size of Texas.

3. You can never project modern knowledge or meanings into the Bible. Just because we think it was global doesn't mean they did.

Having said that, the flood of Genesis has been confirmed by at least a half dozen ancient sources. There's no question that it did happen.
I agree with you.
The flood most likely was a massive local flood.

The way we do see universal flood evidence is in Gen 1:2, but is overlooked.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 ESV
Shalom
 
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ha-adamah

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I agree with you.
The flood most likely was a massive local flood.

The way we do see universal flood evidence is in Gen 1:2, but is overlooked.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 ESV
Shalom

Be careful how you read Genesis 1. It was originally written in Sumerian, not in Hebrew. The Sumerian language only had a little over 300 words, and the Hebrew still preserves the way they used those 300 words very liberally. I think the Hebrew word for "seed" is used as a noun, a verb and an adjective. When you only have 300 to work with, you have to resort to being creative like that.

The purpose for describing creation the way we have it in Genesis 1 was very likely to envision new life forming in a womb surrounded by water.
 
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Filippus

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Be careful how you read Genesis 1. It was originally written in Sumerian, not in Hebrew. The Sumerian language only had a little over 300 words, and the Hebrew still preserves the way they used those 300 words very liberally. I think the Hebrew word for "seed" is used as a noun, a verb and an adjective. When you only have 300 to work with, you have to resort to being creative like that.

The purpose for describing creation the way we have it in Genesis 1 was very likely to envision new life forming in a womb surrounded by water.
I don't see how that changes my proposed link.

Or are you saying I am not qualified to read Genesis 1:2?

Shalom
 
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I'm not quite sure from reading the posts exactly what the questions/issues are?

I give some evidences for global flood here
Noah’s Flood Local or Global?

In my 1999 paper & later booklet Mythos Atlantis - Historia Pangaea I gave evidences for possible continental shift/sprints (as opposed to drift). But its not online. However I can give a number of evidences of sudden raising of the Andes as opposed to supposed slow raising over thousands/millions of years
Andes raised recently
(though it might not have happened in a continental shift, it might have been crust displacement or near passby of a planet like Mars). As for the Himalayas slowly raised the modern fast dropping of the area surely shows it could have been raised quicker. And the bible says all the mountains were covered by the flood so they must have been lower then.

Actually, it says that all the "high hills" were covered. The translators used "mountains" because that's what they believed. Of course that doesn't make sense.
 
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Filippus

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Actually, it says that all the "high hills" were covered. The translators used "mountains" because that's what they believed. Of course that doesn't make sense.
I agree and noticed it with the word "Earth".

Cain complains to God that he will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. The Hebrew word H776 is also used in Gen 7,8 to describe the flood. And doesn't mean planet earth.

Yet in the flood narrative, it is used to support the global flood, by implying the world.

Looking at Cain, we know it can only mean inhabited land or land of the living or known developed world, not planet earth.

Therefore simply following the language used, it is quite reasonable to interpret the flood as being local. Simply referring to the known world at that time.

Gen 4:14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face, I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

Shalom
 
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I agree and noticed it with the word "Earth".

Cain complains to God that he will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. The Hebrew word H776 is also used in Gen 7,8 to describe the flood. And doesn't mean planet earth.

Yet in the flood narrative, it is used to support the global flood, by implying the world.

Looking at Cain, we know it can only mean inhabited land or land of the living or known developed world, not planet earth.

Therefore simply following the language used, it is quite reasonable to interpret the flood as being local. Simply referring to the known world at that time.

Gen 4:14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face, I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

Shalom

I believe it was a global flood as mankind had surely spread beyond the middle east region, just not as deep as Mt. Everest is high. It was a supernatural event in any case, so there's that.
 
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Filippus

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I believe it was a global flood as mankind had surely spread beyond the middle east region, just not as deep as Mt. Everest is high. It was a supernatural event in any case, so there's that.
I agree that it was a supernatural event. And completely trust Scripture.
But I can't see how it was a global flood. Below is listed some of my concerns.

1. Biblical evidence for a universal Noachian Flood is the
“universal” language of Gen. 6-8—words like “earth,”
“all,” “every,” and “under heaven.” However, these
words are used in other places in the Bible to describe
local or regional events and, therefore, cannot necessar-
ily be taken as all-inclusive over the entire planet Earth.

2. Likewise, the terms “rain” and “mist” in Gen. 2:5–6
cannot be taken to support a canopy theory or universal
deluge, because “earth” in these verses does not mean
the planet Earth but only the “earth” or “ground” in the
area of the Garden of Eden.

3. Absolutely no geologic evidence exists for the canopy
theory, flood geology, or a universal flood.
4 The actual geology of the Mount Ararat region, where
Mount Ararat cuts across sedimentary rock, precludes
the Noachian Flood from being responsible for all of the
sedimentary rock in the world, as claimed by flood
geologists.

5. The most likely landing place for the ark is considered
to have been Jabel Judi in the Cizre, Turkey region. This
site meets all of the Bible’s requirements, including “the
mountains of Ararat,” Noah’s vineyard, and the dove’s
plucking off the olive leaf and bringing it back to the
ark. It is also the earliest traditional site for the landing
place of the ark. A landing site in the Cizre region is
compatible with a local flood model, as this region lies
within the boundaries of the Mesopotamian hydrologic
basin.

6. The problems concerned with putting all of the animal
species on Earth into the ark, as per a universal flood
model, are insurmountable barring miracles that the
Bible never claims happened. The Bible indicates that
Noah collected the animals and brought them to the
ark, and this implies a local, not universal, flood.

7. There is no archaeological evidence for a universal
flood. Even regions close to or surrounding Mesopota-
mia do not contain correlative flood deposits.

8. The picture that emerges from all of the biblical and
nonbiblical evidence is that Noah’s Flood was confined
to Mesopotamia, extending over a vast alluvial plain
as far as the eye could see, from horizon to horizon
(under the “whole heaven” or sky). The top of all the
hills (ziggurats?) were covered by this flood, and all
people and animals were drowned except for Noah, his
family, and the animals on the ark. The flood was a real,
historical event that covered—not the whole world—
but the whole of Noah’s world.

9. The idea that the Noachian Flood was a universal flood
stems from a centuries-old interpretation of the Bible
not warranted by either the biblical or scientific evi-
dence. The King James Version, written in the seven-
teenth century, reflects the very limited view that
people had then of the planet Earth and its geology, and
it is this centuries-old, traditional view that has been
passed down to generations of Christians ever since.
The Bible should always be interpreted within the
framework of the culture in which it was originally
written—in this case, the Mesopotamian culture of the
third millennium BC, not the European culture of the
seventeenth century AD. It is only by considering the
culture and world view in which Gen. 6–8 was written
that the Noachian Flood can really be understood.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Carol 1.pdf
 
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Ancient Chinese Megaflood May Be Fact, Not Fiction
Myth of land-changing deluge supported by geology, as are flood legends from Scandinavia to Tibet.


Now people will point out the time difference of 300 years, but I believe they are linked. People just see what they want to see. You don't have this evidence this close in time without it being linked.

Shalom

Ancient Chinese Megaflood May Be Fact, Not Fiction
 
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