Universal Atonement Refuted

[cygnusx1]

False. God did not always harden Pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his heart and then God hardened Pharaoh's heart on top of that.

I really think you need to drop your assumptions and go and re-read the Scriptures , God had lined up Pharoah for destruction way before Moses said a word to Pharoah ....... in fact God tells Moses to go to Pharoah and announce God's will of command "Let my people go" , yet God also tells Moses that Pharoah will not harken because God has hardened him ...... prior to the event!


and so Pharoah hardened his own heart , that was as a result of God hardening it ......... for God had no need to harden something that was sufficiently hard!

 

[holdon]

I really think you need to drop your assumptions and go and re-read the Scriptures , God had lined up Pharoah for destruction way before Moses said a word to Pharoah ....... in fact God tells Moses to go to Pharoah and announce God's will of command "Let my people go" , yet God also tells Moses that Pharoah will not harken because God has hardened him ...... prior to the event!


and so Pharoah hardened his own heart , that was as a result of God hardening it ......... for God had no need to harden something that was sufficiently hard!

Nope, you're wrong. You need to go back and read it for yourself.

 

[cygnusx1]

Nope, you're wrong. You need to go back and read it for yourself.

is that it ? "your wrong" ............ here ends the dialogue , you are like I used to be ,,, hardened.

 

[depthdeception]

I will simply leave it to someone else to address the tripe you present as the truth.

Yum! Tripe! I had some for dinner this evening!

 

[holdon]

is that it ? "your wrong" ............ here ends the dialogue , you are like I used to be ,,, hardened.

Yeah right...

So, you think Pharaoh was of himself entirely willing to let the people go, but that God hardened his heart so that he did not let them go? Read again.

 

[cygnusx1]

Yeah right...

So, you think Pharaoh was of himself entirely willing to let the people go, but that God hardened his heart so that he did not let them go? Read again.

why do you make that assumption ........... is that how your mind works ?

"he cannot mean that so he must mean this"


it is really difficult if not impossible having any discourse with someone who is arguing with themselves.

Pharoah was NOT judicially hardened but Sovereignly hardened , as a close reading of Romans 9 will show.

God could have had mercy upon Pharoah , but God Chose not to!

Those who deny God can have mercy upon whomever He desires to fall away from the plain statements of scripture and foolishly make mercy depend on man not on Grace.

Also they deny that God is truly free. Free to give or withold Mercy as He sees fit.

 

[BBAS 64]

Nope, you're wrong. You need to go back and read it for yourself.

Good Day, Holdon

Exo 4:19 And the LORD said to Moses in Midian, "Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead."

Exo 4:20 So Moses took his wife and his sons and had them ride on a donkey, and went back to the land of Egypt. And Moses took the staff of God in his hand.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,


cygnusx1,

"I really think you need to drop your assumptions and go and re-read the Scriptures , God had lined up Pharoah for destruction way before Moses said a word to Pharoah ....... in fact God tells Moses to go to Pharoah and announce God's will of command "Let my people go" , yet God also tells Moses that Pharoah will not harken because God has hardened him ...... prior to the event!"

It looks as though Cygn. is spot on here.
Peace to u,

Bill

 

[holdon]

Good Day, Holdon

Exo 4:19 And the LORD said to Moses in Midian, "Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead."

Exo 4:20 So Moses took his wife and his sons and had them ride on a donkey, and went back to the land of Egypt. And Moses took the staff of God in his hand.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Yes, the LORD predicted that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. That does not say anything about Pharaoh not hardening his own heart.
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,
You seem to purposefully omit verse 23, because that tells the issue of the LORD's prophecy:
Ex 4:23 And I say to thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill thy son, thy firstborn."

So, the prophecy in chapter 4 for Moses' benefit so that he might regain confidence regarding his stance before Pharaoh, predicts how it will end: the LORD would harden Pharaoh and then kill his firstborn. And so, it came exactly about in chapter 10 and onward.
Prior to that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and would not let the people go. That was foretold also, but in 3:19 without any mention about God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

Here are the verses making it evident that Pharaoh hardened his heart before God hardened his heart in 10:1. I added a verse from a later date in 1 Samuel also.

7:14 And Jehovah said to Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened: he refuseth to let the people go.
8:15 And Pharaoh saw that there was respite; and he hardened his heart, and hearkened not to them, as Jehovah had said.
8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and would not let the people go.
9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
9:34 And Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders had ceased, and he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he, and his bondmen.
10:1 And Jehovah said to Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his bondmen, that I might do these my signs in their midst,
1 Sam 6:6 And why will ye harden your heart, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their heart?


So, Mr. Cygnus is completely wrong in asserting that God hardens hearts a priori. It is an terrible indictment to God, rendering His judgments unjust....

 

[depthdeception]

why do you make that assumption ........... is that how your mind works ?

"he cannot mean that so he must mean this"

As opposed to Calvinism, which begins with "This is how God works (from our theologically presupposed paradigm) therefore the Scriptures must mean this ("this" referring to that which will correspond to the presupposed theological paradigm).

You're pointing a finger at the mirror.

it is really difficult if not impossible having any discourse with someone who is arguing with themselves.

Which is why trying to have conversations with reformed theologians is so frustrating.

Pharoah was NOT judicially hardened but Sovereignly hardened , as a close reading of Romans 9 will show.

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with individual predestination. You are ignoring the context of 9-11.

God could have had mercy upon Pharoah , but God Chose not to!

Why did God "choose" not to have mercy on Pharoah?

Those who deny God can have mercy upon whomever He desires to fall away from the plain statements of scripture and foolishly make mercy depend on man not on Grace.

No one denies this. We simply affirm the biblical teaching that God has mercy upon all God's creation, and that those who fail to receive God's mercy are precisely those who reject the same.

Also they deny that God is truly free.

As does reformed theology.

 

[cygnusx1]

As opposed to Calvinism, which begins with "This is how God works (from our theologically presupposed paradigm) therefore the Scriptures must mean this ("this" referring to that which will correspond to the presupposed theological paradigm).

You're pointing a finger at the mirror.
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not at all , I was at one point strongly opposed to Reformed theology and it's understanding Of God's Sovereignty , such a fool was I.

Which is why trying to have conversations with reformed theologians is so frustrating.

Try the other side of the fence , it is frustrating but less so (God's Sovereignty sure helps here )

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with individual predestination. You are ignoring the context of 9-11.

False!

Why did God "choose" not to have mercy on Pharoah?
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Go read Romans 9 , the answer is plainly revealed.

No one denies this. We simply affirm the biblical teaching that God has mercy upon all God's creation, and that those who fail to receive God's mercy are precisely those who reject the same.

If God has mercy upon all creation then all are saved.Mercy means mercy , it doesn't mean trying to have mercy upon half a dozen conditions .........
Also it negates the whole meaning of the Scripture "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. "

By your tradition you nullify God's word!

As does reformed theology.

Not at all ...... God is free to choose us , He is free to harden us also.

 

[RebirthDefender]

Sure. That's it. Your prooftexts are so strong that we Calvinists shudder in fear and don't even consider coming out of our dark, dank hole.

Exactly, because otherwise you would consider them and then either accept them or answer them, unless you just have no love for the truth nor for your own soul nor for any of your family or friends or anyone else including God.

 

[holdon]

If God has mercy upon all creation then all are saved.

"For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all." Funny how you always fight with the Word of God.... And no, God did not say that all would be saved.

 

[cygnusx1]

[/color]

"For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all." Funny how you always fight with the Word of God.... And no, God did not say that all would be saved.

so you believe 'all' always means each and every single person ........... ?

and no I don't fight with God's word.

 

[holdon]

so you believe 'all' always means each and every single person ........... ?

and no I don't fight with God's word.

So, when God says all, He doesn't mean all? Is that what you're saying?

I have no problem with all = all. That's all.

 

[cygnusx1]

So, when God says all, He doesn't mean all? Is that what you're saying?

I have no problem with all = all. That's all.

so you follow the beast ?


Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,”

 

[holdon]

so you follow the beast ?


Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,”

No, I don't follow the beast. Or what has wondering to do with following. I won't be here when the beast is here anyway, but that is another matter.

 

[cygnusx1]

No, I don't follow the beast. Or what has wondering to do with following. I won't be here when the beast is here anyway, but that is another matter.

well Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,”

so all the world doesn't include evryone does it !!!

 

[holdon]

well Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,”

so all the world doesn't include evryone does it !!!

I am not of this world anyway. But no, it is simply the whole earth. Haha. You always paint yourself in a corner, because you don't trust the bible and need to change words and alter meanings.

 

[cygnusx1]

I am not of this world anyway. But no, it is simply the whole earth. Haha. You always paint yourself in a corner, because you don't trust the bible and need to change words and alter meanings.

I see , so John 3:16 doesn't mean people , just "the earth" .......... and it certainly doesn't mean you , as you have judged.

 

[holdon]

I see , so John 3:16 doesn't mean people , just "the earth" .......... and it certainly doesn't mean you , as you have judged.

Hey silly. Read Rev 13:3 again in a good translation: not "world" but "earth". When will you start to trust God's Word?

Interesting about Jn 3:16: does "world" mean everybody or not?