Universal Atonement Refuted

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Raz

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brad_religion said:
Why would Jesus command his followers to do something, if the Father in heaven were to not do the same thing?

I'm sorry, but this is a really, really bad argument.

I compare it to my cat telling me that I have to start eating meow mix and going poop in the litter box, since it does.

God also commands all men to repent; does that mean He needs to?
 
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brad_religion

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Raz said:
I'm sorry, but this is a really, really bad argument.

I compare it to my cat telling me that I have to start eating meow mix and going poop in the litter box, since it does.

God also commands all men to repent; does that mean He needs to?

Using a pet as an example is not good either. We are not "pets" to God, we are his children. Children are to emulate their parents. All men are to repent, because scripture clearly says all have sinned. When we repent from our sins, we become like the Father (having no sins). It addresses that issue. Jesus wanted us to become like the Father in heaven. But for man to become like the Father, we have to repent of our sins, and forgive our debtors. However, when Jesus speaks about forgiving one's debtor, it is in the context of the Father in heaven forgiving His debtors. Jesus likens the Father in heaven to a father on earth. Jesus himself said God shows kindness to the "ungrateful and evil". Jesus was making the point that God the Father is like a good father here on earth, even more so. God has no sin, man did. Yet, Jesus said we must be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. If Jesus told us to love our enemies and forgive those who have hurt us, yet God himself would not do that very thing, then that would mean we are more perfect than the Father is.
 
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Raz

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brad_religion said:
Using a pet as an example is not good either. We are not "pets" to God, we are his children. Children are to emulate their parents. All men are to repent, because scripture clearly says all have sinned. When we repent from our sins, we become like the Father (having no sins). It addresses that issue. Jesus wanted us to become like the Father in heaven. But for man to become like the Father, we have to repent of our sins, and forgive our debtors. However, when Jesus speaks about forgiving one's debtor, it is in the context of the Father in heaven forgiving His debtors. Jesus likens the Father in heaven to a father on earth. Jesus himself said God shows kindness to the "ungrateful and evil". Jesus was making the point that God the Father is like a good father here on earth, even more so. God has no sin, man did. Yet, Jesus said we must be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. If Jesus told us to love our enemies and forgive those who have hurt us, yet God himself would not do that very thing, then that would mean we are more perfect than the Father is.

I agree the cat analogy is bad. The difference between us and God is much, much greater than us and animals. But here was my point: do you not see that you are holding God to a 'standard' of what you think is good; how you define good? Reality comes from God. Good doesn't define what God is; God defines what good is. Truth itself is subjective to God. To say that God is subjective to truth would be to say that there is something greater than Himself.

I'm sorry for getting off track here; I'm hoping we can get back to the particular atonement discussion.

Your post was really good brad_religion. I just can't agree with universal atonement, based on the whole of scripture.
 
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cygnusx1

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Deiesous said:
The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of EVERYONE (for Christ so loved the world, remember?), but not everyone wants to accept his grace, which is why not everyone will be saved. Christ loves all, but not all love christ.

so what do you make of this verse Deiesous ?

The Whole World Has Gone After Jesus. John 12:20-36.

Is that everyone too ?
 
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