United Socialist States of America - USSA

Gxg (G²)

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There is, and has been, no move in the US towards the state taking full control of the means of production, by force or otherwise. Nobody in either major political party is advocating it. Taxes are pretty much the lowest they have been in a century. Private enterprise holds as much sway over both business and politics as it ever has.

Perhaps the US is moving in a more authoritarian direction with regard to issues of "national security" and so on, but to equate that to Leninism is just showing profound ignorance of Leninism.

If it was truly Leninism, there would be outright REVOLT first from the people (as Lenin came from them/claimed to represent them). As a communist (if the President truly were one to begin with and wanted others to be so as well), he would be for the equitable distribution of material resources to allow every person in society to flourish at their highest potential.

We don't hear enough about the productive forces of society to know if a communism would even be feasible with their current level of technology. ..and with the claim of Socialism being what's coming, Socialism requires that society own the productive capacity to provide for every individual without hardship and allow full and direct democracy. The like of which is impossible in a society where minimum-wage workers practically starve because the wealthiest 1% owns 43% of wealth and people have no time to participate in social planning or government.

Where most become concerned is with all of the discussion on redistribution---and on that...



Others have also noted how the President has also made policies that actually took from the Middle Class and gave to the rich. As another said best in 2010:
President Barack Obama should have been fighting against the self-interest of the very wealthiest Americans long before this. So he is now backed into a corner, and just made a compromise that he thinks is the best deal possible when up against the clock. He got some good things for working families in the payroll tax cut, the extension of unemployment benefits, various refundable tax credits, and the important middle class tax cut. But the president is now presiding over the great redistribution of wealth that has been going on for a very long time -- the redistribution of wealth from the middle and the bottom to the top of American society -- and leaving us with the most economic inequality in American history. This will only grow larger with the Obama "compromise."

If Obama had fought earlier, he could have ensured the protection of small business owners who are the primary job creators.

He could have focused the higher tax rates on the very rich and protected those who are more in the middle and are really creating jobs. But now, most of the people who will be keeping their tax cuts are not job creators. After all, how many jobs will be created by Goldman Sachs traders, or the hedge fund gamblers, or the celebrities who dominate our lives? Almost none. On the contrary, they have been the "job destroyers," having wrecked this economy and the lives of so many people.


Let's be clear here: At the root of the crisis was just a handful of banks -- not the banking industry, not business in general, but a handful of very rich people who took big risks. They are already getting richer because of our taxpayer bailout, and now we're giving them more tax breaks and estate tax bonanzas. There is socialism in America, but it's only for the rich. Risk has been socialized for some of the very richest people in the country, and then, the "free market" pain is distributed to all the rest.

The rich are too big to fail in America, while many in the rest of the country really are failing. The president did want to keep some things for average Americans in this compromise, but he lost the big battle a long time ago when he did not fight the people whose greed, recklessness, and utter lack of concern for the common good led us into this terrible crisis. He waited too long to fight, to force a national debate on economic fairness, and to counter the distortions of the Republicans who clearly don't mind adding huge sums to the deficit as long as it benefits their wealthy patrons. The Republicans will now seek to reduce the deficit by adding more pain to the rest of us -- especially those on the bottom and increasingly shaky middle rungs of the economy. And now, Obama and the rest of us are all backed into corners without a way out.

Our national economic philosophy is now to reward the casino gamblers on Wall Street and to leave the majority of the country standing outside the casino with a tin cup, hoping that the gamblers are at least big tippers. More tax breaks and benefits for the very wealthiest people in America is not only bad economics and bad policy; it is fundamentally immoral. In a letter to the president signed by more than 100 religious leaders, we said just that.
The redistribution dynamic does bring up interesting points for dialouge...especially when seeing that it has often been done throughout the history of the U.S. I'm reminded of the 20th century’s most influential political philosopher, John Rawls. Rawls is famous, in part, for arguing that the natural distribution of talents is morally arbitrary: just because you’re lucky to be born smarter, faster, or even more predisposed to working hard than your neighbor doesn’t mean you’re entitled to more stuff than she is. Governments, then, have no moral reason to allow more talented individuals to acquire more resources than their less-talented peers. This view, called “luck egalitarianism,”is critical to understand when it comes to advancements others may have naturally and why many feel that just because others have natural advantages doesn't mean they ought to be allowed to have greater opportunity from the get-go. Indeed, Rawls contemplated a version of Amon’s solution, casting a sympathetic eye to the idea that it would be a good thing to use genetic engineering to improve the lot of those born with natural disadvantages.

But Rawls explicitly rejects the idea that we ought to take away talents from individuals in the name of promoting equality. Rawls was, in contrast to his Marxist opponents, a liberal progressive, willing to tolerate a degree of inequality inasmuch as that inequality improved the lot of the poorest people in society. Capitalism was good, Rawls thought, because the limited amount of inequality
it required significantly improved the lives of the poor by generating more wealth. This raises the idea that while significant inequality might be wrong, it might also intrinsically wrong to forcibly take the abilities from people that give rise to some inequalities. Of course, we aren’t confronted with this trade-off in the current American economic climate, as much of our inequality is caused by policy that favors the not-necessarily-so-talented 1%. Nonetheless, though, America’s inequality problem does force us to grapple with basic moral questions about why and how much redistribution is morally justified.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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What happened to "government by the people, for the people"?
Adding to that the fact that multiple times in history things were done in the name of government with the backing of government as it concerns legislation/referring to the laws that allowed things to be set up. It's a false scenario trying to say that people and government are not together as the government was set up by people/operated by people and at times needing to be reformed by people because it didn't live up to the phrase "government by the people, for the people".....especially when it was the case that certain people were blantantly left out of government concerns.
 
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NightHawkeye

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What happened to "government by the people, for the people"?
Some of us have been working to correct the deficiency in that regard recently. :D

teapartypeople.jpg
 
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SharonL

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stamperben

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No Ma'am, you said that half of Americans were insulted because they believe America is "heading toward Soviet style socialism." That a poll taken over two years ago says that 55% think the word socialist describes Obama doesn't line up with your claim. I want to know about the move toward Soviet style government.
 
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Wolseley

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What happened to "government by the people, for the people"?

It was usurped and suppressed by career politicians in Washington, who do indeed allow us free elections, but who also carefully control the pool of candidates we can choose from who actually have a chance of getting elected---they make very sure that anyone actually put into office is a member of their cartel.

And it's going to stay that way until we can break up the stranglehold of the two-party system.
 
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SharonL

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You think maybe the above articles might just give you a little clue that we have lots of people in this nation thinking that Socialism is the way to go. I would say that if 55% of people thought the president was a Socialist - that might give you a clue - they voted for him. Also 70 - 80 in Congress is a big microphone. They sway a lot of votes. I will agree that lots of people don't know what socialism is. They will wake up one day and say as the title of the book says 'what the bleep happened.'
 
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stamperben

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You think maybe the above articles might just give you a little clue that we have lots of people in this nation thinking that Socialism is the way to go. I would say that if 55% of people thought the president was a Socialist - that might give you a clue - they voted for him. Also 70 - 80 in Congress is a big microphone. They sway a lot of votes. I will agree that lots of people don't know what socialism is. They will wake up one day and say as the title of the book says 'what the bleep happened.'
There aren't 70-80 socialists in Congress.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Gxg (G²)

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All this shows is that 55% of likely voters don't know what socialism is.
Agreed. No different than it was when others called Dr.Martin Luther King a "communist" and large percentages of America felt such to be true despite the fact that many had no idea what that was and were largely going off of propoganda (in the forms of ads/road signs against him in the South) that demonized him because of his views that many forms of capitalism were failing people in the U.S

Just because a large percentage believes something doesn't equate to it being the case that a large percentage actually understands how something. Many still have no idea about the history of the U.S and much of what it has done in unsavory parts fo the world--and many don't even know other aspects of history. A large percentage also like Oprah and American Idol and Lady Gaga....
 
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Thekla

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Did you read the article? They name them.

I backtracked the source - the organization's website is a dud, and the original info is a SCRIB doc that seems to have mixed info. (commentary). Ie I couldn't verify the info.

The first article doesn't define socialism -- imo, unless the term is defined, it's useless.

So the info. may or may not be accurate, but in one case I couldn't determine that it was with the provided sourcing, and in the other case the terminology is too vague to allow any conclusion.

EDIT:

I just searched for the socialist organization named by the second article - there is no such website, and per wikipedia they disbanded or ceased to exist in 1972.
 
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NightHawkeye

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I just searched for the socialist organization named by the second article - there is no such website, and per wikipedia they disbanded or ceased to exist in 1972.
LOL ... they simply recycled themselves into the "Progressive caucus". That's why the same names show up in both. They are the same people ... philosophies haven't changed. Only the name was changed in order to make their agenda easier to swallow.

It's like laundering money.

Face it, almost no one in this country wants to be called Marxist, communist or socialist ... at least no one who is seriously running for public office. The term "Progressive" isn't held in the same disdain. The term "Progressive" sounds like something genuinely worthwhile, right? :confused:
 
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Thekla

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LOL ... they simply recycled themselves into the "Progressive caucus". That's why the same names show up in both. They are the same people ... philosophies haven't changed. Only the name was changed in order to make their agenda easier to swallow.

It's like laundering money.

Face it, almost no one in this country wants to be called Marxist, communist or socialist ... at least no one who is seriously running for public office. The term "Progressive" isn't held in the same disdain. The term "Progressive" sounds like something genuinely worthwhile, right? :confused:

I don't know - I'm a "progressive's nightmare" ^_^

But the article plays loose with its claims, and doesn't back its assertions with facts nor with sourcing. I would not accept that level of work from my kids ...
 
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NightHawkeye

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I don't know - I'm a "progressive's nightmare" ^_^
LOL ... :thumbsup:
But the article plays loose with its claims, and doesn't back its assertions with facts nor with sourcing. I would not accept that level of work from my kids ...
LOL ... the same can be said for much, probably even most of political "discussion" these days. One has to separate the kernels of truth ... the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. :eek:
 
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stamperben

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Did you read the article? They name them.
There are that many members of the "Progressive caucus": Congressional Progressive Caucus : Caucus Members

Curiously enough, the same names claimed for the Socialist caucus. :doh:

You're welcome ...
70-80 progressive members of Congress who caucus together is a far cry from 70-80 socialist party members.

This is much the same as this whole "thought experiment" is, which is nothing more than a right wing attempt to scare the undecided voter (as Jeff himself stated was his target audience) into thinking Obama is going to lead the country into a Soviet style communist dictatorship that would have done Stalin proud.

And as informative as many of the posters here have been, especially Teddy and Easy G, the whole premise of this thread is so far fetched as to be nothing more than a joke, as I noted in the first response.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm a "progressive's nightmare" ^_^
...
That's hilarious:D


the article plays loose with its claims, and doesn't back its assertions with facts nor with sourcing. I would not accept that level of work from my kids
Indeed. A lot of the claims about Progressives evolving from socialists are of the same mindset (IMHO) that says that the Republicans/Conservatives evolved from parties advocating slavery and Jim Crow. It's bad logic...

People don't prove anything just because they find something that they can place the label "socialist" on...for inherent in that thinking is that being called "Marxist/Communist or Socialist is bad" and all things bad done in the name of that are to be laid at the feet of all who have the label....but no one stops and questions why no one has an issue in saying "All things capitalist are good!!!". By that logic, would be be proper to lay all of the evils of Sweat Shops/Labor factories (as in what happened with the Industrial Revolution), Human trafficking, organized crime, piracy (for those who are paid to take from others and are called privateers like others were in the British Empire ) or debt slavery and starving others by ardent capitalists on the feet of every representative in Washington who happens to support capitalism? Of course not....
 
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I don't know - I'm a "progressive's nightmare" ^_^
...
Everyone is "progressive" on one level or another..especially if believing that some things need to change in order to have progress.

There was an excellent article I once read on the subject that really made me think on how often terms are used interchangeably..by Randy Alcorn. As he said best:

When liberalism was popular it became arrogant and presumptuous and sunk to its lowest levels. I fear the same is happening to conservatism. And I fear it not only in society, but in the church.

The largely liberal philosophies that have dominated American media and politics for years have failed us miserably. Some past elections have testified to the fact that America was fed up with the lies and half truths of liberalism. While the media are still much more liberal than the country as a whole, even they have been penetrated. Rush Limbaugh, originally almost a lone voice, has been joined by a host of other conservatives who jam the airwaves with their ideology. Millions of Americans, including many Christians, are taking notes and saying “Amen.”
But what about conservatism? Does it have its own dangers? Or is “Conservative” simply a synonym for Christian?
Many people I have talked with and many articles I have read seem to equate conservatism with the Christian faith. I remember the mid-nineties when “Rush is Right” bumper stickers shared space with “Jesus is Lord” bumper stickers, as if both were undeniable truths existing on the same plane.

I get the feeling from excited politically-oriented Christians that voting Republican is equivalent to falling on your knees at a revival meeting and getting your life right with God. It’s like if America gets more conservative it’s the same as drawing near to God.

Though they are too slippery to allow simple definitions, the words “conservatism” and “liberalism” contain hints as to their essential nature. Conservatives want to conserve for society what is right. Liberals want to liberate society from what is wrong. To this extent, both philosophies are in theory right and biblical. Unfortunately, in their practice both are capable of being thoroughly unbiblical.

Liberals want to change the status quo. That’s good when the status quo is wrong. Liberals desired to change from the status quo of racism in the ‘60s and they were right. Even though I oppose most of what it does today, I thank God for what liberal groups like the ACLU accomplished in the racial arena.

But liberals didn’t know where to draw the line. They seemed to want to change everything, as if the notions that society once held (including that abortion, adultery, and homosexual relations are wrong) are restrictive and unhealthy, demanding liberation.

But it is wrong to seek liberation from all norms. Marriage used to be more sacred, divorce was much more rare, and abuse was much less common. Children learned how to read, achievement scores were much higher. Life was more sacred, religious values more respected and upheld.

Liberals have done much to “liberate” society from what is right, removing the guardrails that kept Americans on the road. In so doing, they have enslaved while claiming to liberate.

Too often, politically liberal Christians end up being liberals first and Christians second. They redefine compassion according to current political correctness. They act like you either have to hate and vilify homosexuals or you have to say their behaviors are right, as though these are the only two options.

They need to read Ephesians 4:15 about “speaking the truth in love.” We are not to choose between being loving and being truthful. We are to be both. Jesus loved the woman who committed adultery. He loved her the way she was, but loved her too much to let her stay that way. His love didn’t compel him to say “adultery is okay, you don’t have to change,” but “Go and sin no more.”

Conservative Christians, on the other hand, like to conserve and hold on to the existing or past norms. In a society they believe to have been ruined by liberalism, they want to go back to the way things used to be, i.e., the old status quo. They want to go back to when America was a Christian nation, when there was prayer in public schools, when abortion and homosexual behavior were illegal and known to be immoral.

Conservatives seem to want everything the way it used to be, like it was when kids weren’t bringing guns to school and killing each other in gangs and dying of AIDS and when television wasn’t filled with garbage (which many of them watch, despite their complaints).

Well, that all sounds good. But you have to qualify what you’re talking about. “The way things used to be” includes women being unable to vote. “The way things used to be” includes slavery. In the post-slavery era it included notoriously racist Jim Crow laws and segregation. And frankly, to their shame, many—even most—conservatives wanted to conserve these unjust practices.

Many conservatives today want to go back to the days when prayer was allowed in the schools. But they forget the same schools that allowed prayer did not allow black children. To be nostalgic without qualification about times that were racist and demeaning to many Americans is unjust and insensitive. Politically conservative Christians can end up being conservatives first and Christians second.

As undiscerning liberalism tries to liberate us from not only the bad but the good, undiscerning conservatism tries to conserve the bad along with the good. Liberals live under the false notion that change is always good, conservatives under the equally false notion that change is always bad. (“Who do those northern agitators think they are, comin’ down here and stirrin’ up our [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s?”)

So when conservatives talk about going back to our godly roots, theologically conservative but socially liberal Christians (both black and white) are understandably skeptical.

“You mean go back to those godly roots where black people were enslaved and beaten and raped and had their families torn apart by plantation owners who were deacons in their conservative churches? Or back to those days of Ozzie and Harriet and Leave it to Beaver, when you wouldn’t let black people in your restaurants and theaters and schools, and you wouldn’t let us drink out of your water fountains?”

I know conservative evangelicals who are selective in standing for what’s right. They may want the schools to be more hospitable to truth and Christianity. But they may not bother intervening on behalf of the unborn. They may be active in prolife work but ignore or minimize the issues of poverty and racism and responsible care for the environment. In the ‘50s and ‘60s, while defending the Scriptures—a very good thing, they defended institutional racism—a very bad thing.

As some liberals have no discernment as to the fact that some people are poor due to laziness and need to be required to work, likewise some conservatives seem to have no heart for the truly poor, those who are not at fault for their poverty and who, given opportunity and training, would work hard to escape it.

Some conservatives seem to think that free enterprise (in which I believe) solves everything. They appear to have no ecological concerns, as though a sense of stewardship of the earth God entrusted to us is restricted only to “environmentalist wackos.” Of all people, shouldn’t Christians lead the way in being good stewards of the earth God entrusted to our care in Genesis 1 and 2?
Some conservatives serve the god of patriotism. Their Christian faith is dangerously intertwined with their faith in America. Ours is a great country, as countries go. But countries only go so far. Despite its flaws, America deserves our respect and loyalty. But it doesn’t deserve our uncritical endorsement or our worship.

 
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