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United Socialist States of America - USSA

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Jeffwhosoever, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. steve_bakr

    steve_bakr Christian

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    A rather hysterical prognostication.
     
  2. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Yes, it was intentionally out in left field to provoke a robust discussion of where we are headed as a Nation given the increasing government regulations (ie. EPA), increasing taxation (obamacare), increasing entitlements (record number on food stamps), and vastly increasing debt ($5T in 4 years). Yes, we were somewhat headed in this direction before Obama, but Obama poured gas on the flame, slammed on the accelerator, even when against the will of the majority of Americans like Obamacare.

    The key question is whether a strong, central, federal government that takes away individual rights (such as the individual mandate in ACA) and states rights is the right direction for the USA, or not.

    A lot of good points have been made, from a number of very insightful partcipants who poured forth great efforts, and I commend those who have aspired beyond the rhetoric to provide such an educational exercise, which was the original intention albiet a somewhat unusual methodology employed (aka the thought experiment).
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  3. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    It is worth watching, whether or not it is 'permitted' EZ austerity seems to be creating a momentum of sorts; in Greece the Golden Dawn (far right, secessionist) garnered 7% of the vote in June and is now polling at 22%. A bit concerning ...
     
  4. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Perhaps ... though considering that the EU has now dictated that the Greeks should work six-day weeks until their debt is paid off, I find it somewhat refreshing that the Greeks should tell the EU to shove it. :thumbsup:

    Of course, simple bankruptcy isn't gonna solve the Greek's problem either. I don't really see a good way for them to get themselves out from under the thumb of the international banking cartel.

    In this country we do though. We can simply tell the Fed to dissolve itself and eliminate it. The fact that the Fed has resorted to printing unlimited amounts of money speaks to the fiscal irresponsibility of that entity. Try as they might, there's no way that's gonna fix the current problem we have. That approach never has done so in history. The rationale for unlimited quantitative easing reads like a dissertation on "new math", LOL. Look, ma, we've discovered a new fiscal reality ... entirely divoced from anything ever done before. Or, maybe it's more like a "hail mary" pass in the final two seconds of a football game ... hoping against overwhelming odds that the receiver will get nearly 100 yeards downfield before the quarterback gets sacked and will outrun all of the defenders, and that the ball will actually arrive at the point where the receiver will be, and that the ball won't just slip through the receiver's fingers, or bounce off his chest, or get deflected by a defender, or get intercepted. Not too likely to happen.

    On second thought, forget about the "hail mary" analogy. It has a finite probability of success. Quantitative easing on the other hand appears doomed to failure. ^_^

    Personally, I'm going with "Audit the Fed" and reining that monstrous beast in; then putting it out to permanent pasture, never to be ridden again.
     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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  6. Thekla

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    No doubt, it's a mess. People who have paid into their pensions - and taxes - have had their pensions repeatedly slashed and taxes raised -- I know of one case (career military) who now must decide between paying taxes and feeding his unemployed children. Given the recession (really in Greece a depression) there's no income to collect taxes from ...
    Greece used to have the lowest suicide rate in the EZ - now it's about the highest.

    I think we also need to break up the biggest players and get some sensible banking regulation enacted and enforced.

    At least according to this analysis, the Fed is balancing the 'above ground' system with activity in the shadow banking system:
    The Fed Has Another $3.9 Trillion In QE To Go (At Least) | ZeroHedge
     
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Found this pic and thought you'd really love it

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    :D
    That's why we have space exploration ;)

    (Thanks EasyG !)
     
  9. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Sorry to hear of that situation in Greece. I am very worried that the combination of a bad US economy that won't get better and QE3 is going to put us in the same situation. In fact, it seems like the same problem is spreading around the globe.
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Space exploration can be a good thing and not always a negative. Curious as to what you meant by the comment:)
     
  11. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    Thank-you, Jeff. And the mess does seem to be worldwide - no-one immune.

    Honestly, I think we seem to have a choice between slow death and re-set; what the reset would be is hard to tell. But certainly this present situation is unsustainable.
     
  12. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    It seemed to respond to both images :D

    The idea of continuous exponential expansion may have met its match at the borders of the planet - so outward is the only place left to go, unless expansion can continue into intangibles and re-use.
     
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    We'll we cut off funding for NASA so the USA will be staying on the ground..for now. As it is, if we got the ability to do things far out, it'd be difficult enough to know how we'd handle ourselves.

    And if things got really bad on the earth, only the super rich or privelaged would be able to go to outer-space/escape while everyone else would be left behind.
     
  14. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    If you really want something to keep you awake at night, consider that the United States tanking economically would send massive shockwaves both to Europe and to Asia---and might very well cause them to tank as well.

    The last time this happened was in the 5th century, when the Western Roman Empire collapsed....which, of course, led to the Dar Ages, which only lasted for about 500 years. :)

    We may be teetering on the brink of the next Dark Age, kids. Fun, huh?

    Have a pleasant night. :)

    heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh......
     
  15. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Since we're talking about US military domination, I'll throw in a little Bible prophecy:
    Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
    ...
    13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth
    .
    Whether these are the "last days" is debatable. People flowing into the USA is not. Similarly, the USA being a daughter of Zion is not in debate either: the USA is a product of Judeo-Christian culture. That the USA has beat in pieces many people is not a matter of dispute, either by US citizens or by those elsewhere who might be opposed to the USA.

    Perhaps it can be called mere coincidence that the first and last verses of Micah 4 are aptly descriptive of the USA. More interesting is that the entirety of Micah 4 is aptly descriptive of the USA, such as these verses which aptly describe our current political woes ...
    8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

    9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

    10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

    11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
    Perceived weakness in the USA has led countries in the Middle East to rally against Israel ... though that seems a particularly unwise course of action.
    12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
    Dismissing God doesn't tend to work out well ... it's like throwing away truth. :doh:
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Seeing that Micah was dealing specifically with views relevant for Jewish believers in the Messiah, it's very precarious trying to take the text/read back into it the coutry o fthe U.S since it never had it in mind and there was more said besides that when seeing the context. There's a reason why it was often critiqued and condemned whenever people in the U.S claimed that the USA was the "New Israel/Zion" even though it was far from being remotely concerned or connected with the Jewish/Hebraic worldview of the scriptures and often mistreated Jews.
    The "last days" issue is indeed a subject of debate that has lasted for a long time. However, the U.S has never been a "Chrisitan" culture..although what it has had are Christian principles. As it stands, many other empires had the same dynamics as it concerns using Christian principles and yet being far from Christian/Christ like and related to Christ while uniting many groups together. The British Empire comes immediately to mind, as it was once said that the sun never sets on it due to how it literally circled the entire known world and did colonization practically everywhere when it came to assimilating groups into its own.

    The logic used to make the U.S a "daughter of Zion" also applies to every other imperialistic, expansionist and dominant empire on the planet that has ever used the name of Christ at the forefront.

    There was a good review on the issue elsewhere in an excellent article entitled Monumental Myth « The Centrality and Supremacy of Jesus Christ..one of my dear brothers in Christ who pointed out the ways that people often have no clue what it means to be a "Christian NAtion" and where the U.S was often divorced from it. In his words:
    I would like to present my case that the founding fathers were not seeking to establish a Christian nation. This is most clearly evidenced by an absence of any reference to Jesus in the founding documents, and the Treaty of Tripoli, which sets forth that the U.S. was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
    Were some of the early leaders Christian? Well, sure. They were white weren’t they? There wasn’t much else those days for white Westerners. It can hardly be denied that some of them were simply nominal Christians—carrying on their religion like a family tradition. Thanks to Constantine in the 4th century, Europe had considered itself “Christian” for about 1400 hundred years—even during the Crusades, Inquisitions, and the drowning of Anabaptists. [Insert sarcasm now] So yeah, they were “Christian” alright… every single one of them.

    Deism was the new way to be fashionable as a Westerner during the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. Deism holds a belief in a “Creator” or “nature’s God” who rarely intervenes in human affairs, though he might show up to bless nationalistic endeavors. Deism was a growing religious philosophy that believed that miracles would violate nature (hence, “supernatural”). Therefore, deists believed that miracles are not possible. They also rejected divine revelation. Deists believed that the Bible should merely be used to further lawful societies and to encourage some level of morality within the culture.

    I’m not going to discuss each founding father here, but I should mention a few key fathers. George Washington was a freemason and a deist. He wouldn’t take communion with his wife. We have no correspondence of him mentioning Jesus or faith in Christ. John Adams spoke harshly at times about Christianity and religion in general in his private correspondence. He was a Christian Unitarian that believed the church service was good for everyone because it promoted morals and values among the masses.

    Yes, there’s ample evidence that John Jay was an evangelical Christian. He actually tried to keep Catholics from holding office. And Patrick Henry was indeed vocal about his Christian faith as the leader of independence in Virginia. Nevertheless, we should not be so quick to conclude what we hope or wish to be true because of a few that were more vocal about their faith. Politicians do this all the time today. Do you still believe that Bill Clinton is a Southern Baptist?

    Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were deists. Franklin admits it in his writings, when he wasn’t drunk or inventing something. Jefferson went so far to deny the divinity of Christ. He even created his own compilation of Jesus’ life from the gospels, which he entitled, “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.” He removed all evidence of the “supernatural” for a presentation of Jesus as a good moral teacher who is only to be admired, not worshipped. Rationalism at its finest!

    Let’s be clear about this. The founding fathers sought to establish a nation free from big government, burdensome taxes, and state-sponsored religion. Religious nation? I’ll grant that much. Christian nation? Huh, what’s that? The major shapers of America concluded that it’s not even possible.

    What about the pilgrims you say? Oh, you mean the glorified stories of the Puritan fundamentalists? Well, you see, they wanted to enforce OT laws and create model theocratic cities. They are the ones who first hijacked the “city on a hill” language that Jesus used to describe the church. Instead, they used it to describe their new theocratic societies in America (e.g. Massachusetts Bay Colony led by William Bradford).

    The Puritans claimed that America was the new Israel, the Indians were the savage Canaanites, and that God had given them the command to kill in his name. Many politicians throughout the years have used this sort of religious rhetoric to pander to fundamentalist evangelicals who still embrace the Christian nation myth. It’s also great for demonizing your enemies and gaining support for the expansion of empire when “God is on our side!”

    Except for the fundamentalist Puritans, the rest of the colonialists acknowledged that the “Christian” state had been a total disaster in Europe. Roger Williams, who began the first Baptist church on American soil, rejected the theocratic view of the Calvinistic pilgrims, detested the idea of a Christian nation, and argued for religious liberty and separation of church and state–an idea that the Anabaptists had been ruthlessly persecuted for a century earlier. It finally caught on!

    What you have here are Christian revisionists trying to build a case for an American Christian heritage based off of a glorified retelling of the pilgrim landing and the Puritan idea, singling out a few lone patriots who said some things about Jesus, the vague deistic references to God in founding documents, and the celebration of biblical virtues that even the atheists in that day advocated.
    A person has to ignore the larger social, economic, political, and religious climate of early North American colonialism to advance the Christian nation myth.

    So, if you want to “go back to the beginning” and find a nation embracing biblical morals and values, you will find some of that for sure. But if your eyes are wide open, you’re also going to find war, lies, greed, genocide, slavery, witch trials, and manifest destiny.

    If you’re honest, you will, much like Pliny the Roman historian, seek to dig up the glorious past of Rome in order to inspire the citizens of the day to embrace moral reform, only to discover that the history of empire is a bloody shame.
    If you claim "God Bless America" isn't accurate to say and note where the U.S has been often been unconcerned about God at the basics of treating your neighbor as you would treat yourself, it's seen as idolatry. But what's in the Book is in the Book. For more:


    It could also be called ascribing to the text what isn't there and being selective with how it's applied.
    Considering that there were specific. Micah was written during the era of II Kings (right around the time of Uzziah) and an era where prosperity and nationalism were a BIG deal since the nation of GOd was prospering and yet putting confidence in its military might as well as neglecting things of the Lord. And the prophet spoke actively against that.
    There are many reasons to rally for Israel just as there are many reasons to be against it. Regardless, what is clear is that weaknesses of the U.S often cannot be avoided as it concerns consequences in choosing to either deny them or avoid them and act as if nothing will happen...and the example of what happened to Israel in the OT is proof of that when it came to enemies rising to come against that nation and it was simultaneously the case that the nations themselves were harmed while Israel was also harmed for never addressing their issues.
    Dismissing the Lord never works out well. That said, it's sad enough to see how the U.S has been doing that in multiple ways since day one of the nation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  17. TeddyReceptus

    TeddyReceptus Guest

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    .....
     
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

    The other possibility is to have a "Book of Eli" reality where things go downhill and people learn how to survive in it...
     
  19. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I have the Blu Ray!
     
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Who knows if perhaps we'd end up with a reality like John Carter of Mars where someone looks back on our planet and has no idea of how much was present because it's dying away...
     
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