Understanding Trinity

[hedrick]

This is very interesting, but none of these responses talked about why the idea of the Trinity should be there in the first place. I think that’s what we really need to address the OP.

It is basic Christian concept, based on John 1 and other passages, that Christ shows us God. But if that’s true, it should affect our concept of God. We can’t take some abstract philosophical prime mover, or even a Jewish or Muslim pure monotheistic concept. If Jesus shows us God, what kind of God does he show? He shows us not just an omnipotent creator, but an obedient Son. If we assume that the mortal human, the Son who is obedient to his Father, is actually an image of God (Col 1:15), then our concept of God is forced to include both Father and Son.

Historically, the earliest Christian concepts were in fact “binitarian.” However it’s pretty clear from both OT and NT that the Holy Spirit is the personal presence of God, but is always spoken of as distinct, as something sent by God to us. For that reason, once we have an image of God with Father and Son, it’s natural to include the Holy Spirit as well.

I don't think the right place to start is the standard analogies, or explanations of what the difference between person and essence is. The exact way the Trinity is explained developed later, and that language isn't, after all, Scriptural. I think the place to start is to make sure that people understand why it is that having Jesus as the image of God commits us a different understanding of God than we would otherwise have.

 

[DominicBaptiste]

True, you did say “went to heaven”. I guess my contention is that all Christians will go to Heaven and be resurrected, but He physically resurrected from the tomb at that time. Be that as it may, I don’t want to get stuck on it I think we both understand what happened then, and I’m sure you would talk to your children in more details about that, especially considering Easter is coming up.

Very cool about Vladimir the Great! That’s great to know your heritage back that far. I’ve gotten it back to the 15th century with my family (Western European), but my husband’s is particularly difficult to research since they are from the Carpatho-Rusyn region. Thanks for sharing!

I think most people have genealogy like that. It's just hard to document. Somebody I'm distantly related to went to London and got documents supporting it. It was on ancestry.com. I don't have kids, but I have a niece and cousins with children. I'm thinking about writing a book because I have a lot of kind of unknown early history from the settlement of the Southern United States, and I have a lot of old family pictures that I've collected. By the way, one of my close friends is a Russian from Rostov-on-Don. He actually convinced one of his neighbors to convert to Orthodox.

 

[Open Heart]

How do you explain the concept of Trinity
To a child even someone that has a hard time understanding it?

All analogies fall short, especially those we give children, but here goes.

My mom taught me with a Triangle. Inside the Triangle was the word GOD in capital letters. Then, along each side of the Triangle were the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My mother explained to me that even though the Father wasn't the Son and the Son wasn't the Spirit, etc., that all you had to do was take away one side of the Triangle, and you wouldn't have GOD anymore.

 

[All4Christ]

I think most people have genealogy like that. It's just hard to document. Somebody I'm distantly related to went to London and got documents supporting it. It was on ancestry.com. I don't have kids, but I have a niece and cousins with children. I'm thinking about writing a book because I have a lot of kind of unknown early history from the settlement of the Southern United States, and I have a lot of old family pictures that I've collected. By the way, one of my close friends is a Russian from Rostov-on-Don. He actually convinced one of his neighbors to convert to Orthodox.

I’ve worked on mine for probably 20 years. My grandma loves genealogy, so we researched it all together. I have a lot of photos, and an extended family member wrote a book, which was helpful. Eastern Europe is tough since so many parishes were burnt down - and since the parishes held the records for baptism, birth, etc. That’s why we have trouble with my husband’s side.

That’s interesting about your friend. I’ve never actually been to Russia, though I know the choirs are gorgeous. I grew up Pentecostal and followed the Holiness movement closely (which is heavily influenced by Wesley’s teachings on holiness). Wesley was fairly familiar with the Eastern Church Fathers and drew from some of those concepts, especially in regards to atonement, sanctification, etc. Those teachings actually drew me towards Orthodoxy, though it took many years to come to that conclusion. That’s my closest connection to your tradition.

 

[All4Christ]

The OP was wanting an explanation for a child. And I did say that any analogy would be imperfect.
You go much to far in demanding that all of the details be correct. Remember this explanation is for a child.
To properly explain the Trinity would require a very large book with very fine print. It is very important to extend grace in this instance instead of getting caught up in the details.

True...you did say that they were imperfect analogies, and you are right that an explanation for a child must be different due to level of comprehension. I am particularly cautious with these analogies since I was taught about the Trinity through similar analogies and started to have some incorrect understandings regarding the Trinity, which were eventually corrected. Be that as it may, certainly we cannot fully teach the Trinity to children - and for that matter, it is difficult for many adults. Even a book does not fully capture the meaning of the Trinity. I just hesitate to use any analogy due to the inherent potential of misunderstanding the nature of our God and the Trinity.

Apologies for not explaining why it is a concern for me, and me just stating quickly what I consider to be incorrect.

 

[AfterThought]

So you would say that the Holy Spirit
Is like gods link to Jesus?
But explaining it to your child I would think is a daunting task if not next to Impossible
Thanks for the replies I'm just trying to get a different take on the subject

 

[Trevor Holder]

This 2 minute video should really help!

Here is a logical explanation for the Trinity given that God is love.

From the video:
"If you say God is love, you have to mean that within the very being of God there's a play of a lover, a beloved, and the love that they share." -- Those three form the Trinity

God bless.

 

[GraceBro]

Analogies can be OK to help us understand the Trinity, but they ultimately fall short and lead to one heresy or another, so we must be careful in understanding their limits.


This is Modalism, the different aspects of H2o being different modes of water.

This is Partialism or Tritheism, depending on how we are positioning the eggs parts.

This is partialism too.

As @All4Christ says above, the Trinity cannot be fully comprehended by our human minds...these analogies are helpful in partially understanding it, but we must acknowledge their shortfalls.

So, let me get this straight, one of the last things I said in my OP was, "There are better examples, but not sure one example can completely grasp the Trinity." You, basically, confirm my point by saying, "these analogies are helpful in partially understanding it, but we must acknowledge their shortfalls." Yet, you seem to "understand" the Trinity so well that you can label my examples as modalism, partialism or tritheism, in order to dismiss them, as if you are the final authority in all of this, lol.

 

[GraceBro]

Partialism.

It is amazing how quickly people can label others views in order to dismiss them, as if they are the authority on a topic people claim to not fully grasp. SMH

 

[tampasteve]

So, let me get this straight, one of the last things I said in my OP was, "There are better examples, but not sure one example can completely grasp the Trinity." You, basically, confirm my point by saying, "these analogies are helpful in partially understanding it, but we must acknowledge their shortfalls." Yet, you seem to "understand" the Trinity so well that you can label my examples as modalism, partialism or tritheism, in order to dismiss them, as if you are the final authority in all of this, lol.

I am certainly no final authority on the Trinity. But I can spot a bad Trinity analogy when I see one, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out where the analogy, not the person saying the analogy, is incorrect. Label the analogy, not the person making it.

 

[creslaw]

Most lay people seem to see God as one as a family of father, mother & child are one family ... or as one man who is a husband, father & son.

Though neither are exactly correct I lean towards the latter in my relationship with God ... and relationship is not the same as theological knowledge.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

King James translators expended some genuine effort in assigning the masculine gender to references of the Spirit -- and most of these were in error. The most common passage used to prove the Trinity is I John 5:7. But biblical scholars know this verse was an addition to the Scriptures. Furthermore, they know when it was added and where it came from.

 

[1an]

How do you explain the concept of Trinity
To a child even someone that has a hard time understanding it?

Easy. You will have seen the TV program called "Undercover Boss" where the new man on the shop floor is the owner of the company. Well, the two people are actually the same person and they are both living at the same time.

They are one and the same person and so it is with God who came to his own in the form and appearance of man.

 

[Ron Gurley]

TRI-UNE GOD TRUTHS/DOCTRINE REVEALED!
...FROM SCRIPTURE!

God the Son, Jesus the God-Man is not the SAME as/IDENTICAL to God the Father,
nor is God the Son, Jesus the God-Man the SAME as/ IDENTICAL to God the Holy Spirit.
The spiritual Persons of the "Godhead" are discerned has having different
RANKS, ROLES, MISSIONS, FUNCTIONS, NAMES, etc.
No one Person of the "Godhead" is identical to / the same as / "equal" to the other
>>>EXCEPT<<< in THEIR unity of "spiritual essence" AND divine nature. (1 Cor.12:13)


In many ROLES / FUNCTIONS, God the Father RANKS ABOVE both God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

For example:

Genesis 1:26-28 (NASB)...ALLOWS for a PLURAL GOD
26 Then God (Elohim - plural - pre-existent one) said,
“Let Us make man in Our (spiritual) image, according to Our (soul?) likeness;

Mattthew 3: 16-17: The Beginning of Jesus' Ministry: A glimpse of the TRI-UNE GOD
As soon as Jesus (God the Son) was baptized (immersed in river Jordan), he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit)
descending LIKE (in the form of) a dove and lighting on him.And a voice (God the Father) from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Mark 9:7
Then a cloud (God the Holy Spirit) formed, overshadowing them, (God the Son + 3) and a voice (God the Father) came out of the cloud,
“This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

John 14:26 (NIV)...a new promise by Jesus...a snapshot of the TRI-UNE God
"When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of TRUTH (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he (the Spirit of TRUTH) will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me. (God the Son/Jesus)

John 14:26(NASB)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Matthew 28: 18 - The End of the Ministry - Post Resurrection and Pre-Ascension... The Great Commisssion
Then Jesus came to them (disciples) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Therefore
a. go and
b. make disciples of all nations,(convert to believers
c. baptizing them (believers) in the name
of (God) the Father and
of (God) the Son and
of (God) the Holy Spirit,
and d. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Colossians 2 :8-9;
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Colossians 1 :15-19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness (of the Deity) dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Phillipians 2...The Kenosis...Diety poured out into perfect flesh without loss or change in Deity

Romans 15:30 (NIV)...in prayer
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus)
and by the love of the Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), to join me in my struggle
by praying to God (God the Father) for me.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV)...in goodbyes
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus) ,
and the love of God (God the Father),
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) be with you all.

 

[1an]

TRI-UNE GOD TRUTHS/DOCTRINE REVEALED!
...FROM SCRIPTURE!

God the Son, Jesus the God-Man is not the SAME as/IDENTICAL to God the Father,
nor is God the Son, Jesus the God-Man the SAME as/ IDENTICAL to God the Holy Spirit.
The spiritual Persons of the "Godhead" are discerned has having different
RANKS, ROLES, MISSIONS, FUNCTIONS, NAMES, etc.
No one Person of the "Godhead" is identical to / the same as / "equal" to the other
>>>EXCEPT<<< in THEIR unity of "spiritual essence" AND divine nature. (1 Cor.12:13)


In many ROLES / FUNCTIONS, God the Father RANKS ABOVE both God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

For example:

Genesis 1:26-28 (NASB)...ALLOWS for a PLURAL GOD
26 Then God (Elohim - plural - pre-existent one) said,
“Let Us make man in Our (spiritual) image, according to Our (soul?) likeness;

Mattthew 3: 16-17: The Beginning of Jesus' Ministry: A glimpse of the TRI-UNE GOD
As soon as Jesus (God the Son) was baptized (immersed in river Jordan), he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit)
descending LIKE (in the form of) a dove and lighting on him.And a voice (God the Father) from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Mark 9:7
Then a cloud (God the Holy Spirit) formed, overshadowing them, (God the Son + 3) and a voice (God the Father) came out of the cloud,
“This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

John 14:26 (NIV)...a new promise by Jesus...a snapshot of the TRI-UNE God
"When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of TRUTH (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he (the Spirit of TRUTH) will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me. (God the Son/Jesus)

John 14:26(NASB)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Matthew 28: 18 - The End of the Ministry - Post Resurrection and Pre-Ascension... The Great Commisssion
Then Jesus came to them (disciples) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Therefore
a. go and
b. make disciples of all nations,(convert to believers
c. baptizing them (believers) in the name
of (God) the Father and
of (God) the Son and
of (God) the Holy Spirit,
and d. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Colossians 2 :8-9;
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Colossians 1 :15-19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness (of the Deity) dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Phillipians 2...The Kenosis...Diety poured out into perfect flesh without loss or change in Deity

Romans 15:30 (NIV)...in prayer
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus)
and by the love of the Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), to join me in my struggle
by praying to God (God the Father) for me.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV)...in goodbyes
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus) ,
and the love of God (God the Father),
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) be with you all.

All of which is true which is why we read in Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Still Immanuel (God with us).

 

[Butch5]

Honestly, it is incredibly difficult, and all of the "simple" analogies that people come up with end up as a type of heresy. Some of them:
God is like:
an egg: This is Tritheism
a three leaf clover: this is Modalism
H2o: this is Modalism
Fruit (skin, seeds, flesh): Tritheism again

Here is a pretty good article: Link
From the article: " The concept of a Triune God is more than difficult to comprehend—it’s impossible to comprehend, for the simple reason that we have nothing in our world that has a corresponding existence. Humans, the most complex creatures we know of, exist as single persons, not as unified multiples."

Here is an amusing 3 minute video on the difficulty of explaining the Trinity:

In the end, the best way to explain the Trinity is with the Creeds, the Athanasian Creed is long, but sums it up as best we can, I believe:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.​

This creed changed what was believed in the beginning. The Trinity in the Nicene Creed is what the early Christians believed.

 

[EmSw]

No, there is only one God.

You are absolutely correct. One God in one person.

In John 14:9, Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Jesus did not say, he who has seen me has seen another person who is the Father. In Jesus was the Father, as the soul is in the body. No one has seen a soul, but has seen the body in which the soul abides.

Just as everyone here has a soul and body, we do not say they are 'two' persons. Even a child can understand this.

 

[Albion]

You are absolutely correct. One God in one person.

In John 14:9, Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Jesus did not say, he who has seen me has seen another person who is the Father. In Jesus was the Father, as the soul is in the body...Just as everyone here has a soul and body, we do not say they are 'two' persons. Even a child can understand this.

Unfortunately, what a child can understand is not always the whole or correct story. Just as saying that there is one God and only one person which, I am guessing, means that you do not know what the word persona means. Look into it.

 

[jovanovic]

the biggest problem for me is jesus in his human form....son the god "left" his position in heaven and ended up in a stomach and did nothing in the stomach? and when he was baby he was just like all other baby and still he is god? did he even know that he was god when he was like 7 years old? why was it son the god and not father or holy spirit who came in the flesh? and what was christ doing when he was 18-30?,was he even in israel during this time?

 

[1an]

Unfortunately, what a child can understand is not always the whole or correct story. Just as saying that there is one God and only one person which, I am guessing, means that you do not know what the word persona means. Look into it.

Jesus amazed the teachers in the Temple and he knew his Father wasn't Joseph.

[45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."

[49] "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.