Holy Trinity vs. Unholy Trinity

Clare73

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The matter of Jesus' name is summed up well by one verse.
Actually, all doctrine is based on the whole of Scripture, not just one verse.

The nature of Jesus must include all the NT word of God, such as that presented in post #36.

As the sacrifice of Jesus was not fully revealed in his lifetime under the OC,
so his divine nature and sacrifice for sin also were not fully revealed in his lifetime under the OC.
That remained for the apostles to reveal, as in post #36.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What do you do, then, with Isaiah 9:6? Why is the name of "everlasting Father" attached to the Son if the Father is not Jesus?

It is a Messianic title. Not a reference to Jesus being God the Father. Christ is, as King Messiah enthroned at the right hand of the Father, the King, a father perpetually: as a king is a father of to the nation. Unlike temporal kings whose dominion is, well, temporal; the dominion of Christ is everlasting (Daniel 7:14), for He who came is exalted and given the name that is above every other name (Philippians 2:9-11). The Son, of course, has never been without His Divine Glory, for He has always been God and had glory with His Father (John 17:5), but as King Messiah, as spoken by the holy angel Gabriel, that He should sit on the throne of David forever (Luke 1:31-33), and long ago spoken by the Prophets (2 Samuel 7:15-16 and again Daniel 7:14), that Jesus has been exalted, enthroned, as King Messiah--and He shall rule and reign until all is made subject to Him, even death itself shall be defeated, and then He shall come, and deliver all things over to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:25-28, Acts 3:21).

He is God because He is Son and Word of God.
He is King Messiah because He is Son of Mary, Son of David, the Son of Man.

I agree with this, and I do not find that the word "name" cannot mean authority and power at the same time as meaning "name". In Hebrew, for what this is worth, the word "name" is actually "Shem." Interesting?

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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Jipsah

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This is corroborated by Matthew 28:19 where Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are linked to a single name, both in English and in Greek (not three names).
But that isn't what our Lord said, is it?
The disciples recognized this name, and baptized according to Jesus' instructions in that single name.
So we're to ignore that our Lord actually said? I reckon I'll pass on that one. Your interpretation may be one of those that's "too clever by half".
 
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The Liturgist

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But that isn't what our Lord said, is it?

So we're to ignore that our Lord actually said? I reckon I'll pass on that one. Your interpretation may be one of those that's "too clever by half".

It sounds indistinguishable from Sabellianism also known as Modalism to me, which in the past century was revived by the “Jesus Name” Pentecostals, but I would note that one could baptize using the correct Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 and be a modalist. Indeed, when I was in my teenage years trying to figure out the Trinity and the sermons of my Methodist minister were useless in this regard, particularly since at most we used the Apostles Creed, and I never heard the Athanasian Creed, which is very explicit, or even the Nicene Creed, until I was an adult, an idea similar to modalism had occurred to me. Although when I was 19 I took a recreational exam of the sort one finds in periodicals with the answers on the other page entitled “Are you a heretic” and I instinctively answered correctly in terms of Trinitarian theology and Christology.

I think this was at least partially because earlier in my teenage years when I was trying to work it out I was aware that what I was thinking of was a guess at an analogy, rather than the actual truth of the model; being into computers even way back then in the era when Cray supercomputers were considered Ferraris and a 486DX was the height of desktop luxury, and a 386 was quite nice*, and networking was something I was aware of although ethernet at the time tended to consist of a thick coaxial cable connected to individual computers with “vampire taps” and there were other LAN technologies, many of them synchronous and using a ring topology, which later survived only for SONET in fibre-optic metropolitan area networks, which I think has now been supplanted by superfast ethernet and high powered ethernet transceivers (which are modules which plug into the router or switch, which does much of the work, and there are also multiplexers which allow for different colors of light to be sent down the same fibre), so given that, I thought of God as possibly being like a networked computer. Of course, all of this is quite wrong.

*Of course, if wanted real power, and I did, but seldom got it, you wanted access UNIX machine (the DEC Alpha running Tru64 UNIX (or alternately, VMS, which was designed by the same team that did the kernel and systems programming for Windows NT, which is the basis for all modern Windows, but VMS was more reliable than WIndows until at least Windows 7 and Server 2008 R1 or R2, or perhaps one might argue Server 2003 and Windows XP SP2, due to not having to support the buggy and insecure Windows System32 GUI, which runs (or ran) in the kernel, by the way, so if you pwn the GUI via a security exploit you get absolute root, which combined with the Windows monoculture and the requirement of so much legacy Win9x software, which really should have been sandboxed, but wasn’t, for performance reasons (which also impacted compatibility despite the best efforts of a huge Microsoft team dedicated to maintaining compatibility), so that users were conditioned into running as Administrator, and even after UAC was introduced in Vista, granting admin rights to programs that don’t need them, to create a toxic situation in terms of Windows security which VMS lacked, since it was only being used on workstations and midrange computers, but I digress, one might also have been happy to run or IBM AIX on a POWER cpu (but not an IBM AS/400 or System i, which are database-oriented systems with screen-based terminal interfaces historically used in a lot of business applications, similar to the terminal interfaces used in banking and airline reservations at one time, which make for a lousy interactive experience for programmers) which is different from and more advanced than the PowerPC used in Macs and the BeBox, the latter of which was quite an interesting OS and vastly superior to classic MacOS and the apex of single user operating systems, better than even IBM OS/2 with JFS, or Sun Solaris on a SPARC, or perhaps HP-UX on PA-RISC, or if 3D graphics was your forte, you wanted sgi IRIX running on MIPS CPUs, which survived in the embedded space but not on high end applications.

Finally as a compromise there was 386BSD, and its successor FreeBSD, and then NetBSD and OpenBSD, which were bona fide UNIX that could run on PCs with at least a 386, and likewise early Linux could also run on a 386. Most modern distros want at least a 786 if compiled for 32 bits (which is increasingly rare, i786 is what Linus kernel developers call the Pentium III or IV, I forget which, but it predates the Core and Core 2 (64 bit), and it was a compile time option whether to target the i386, the i586 (Pentium, which Mandriva Linux in its last years was compiled for), the i686 (Pentium II or Pentium III, again, I forget which).

Also PCs with sufficient specs could, and in small and medium and even some large business often did, run UNIXWare and OpenServer, formerly known as Xenix, which was a port of UNIX to x86 developed by Microsoft, both of which were sold by SCO and were popular until SCO was bought out by some lawyers who also also, ironically in light of what they were about to do, bought out Caldera Systems, a Linux distributor, in Utah, who I think were at least partially of the Mormonic religion, who sued IBM, Red Hat and Novell in an attempt to force companies to pay them a license fee for using Linux, which they alleged violated their IP (the case was dismissed after a decade long legal battle). I think these OSes are still being developed by someone,
 
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BibleLinguist

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But that isn't what our Lord said, is it?

I would note that one could baptize using the correct Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 and be a modalist.

May I point out that Jesus' disciples had just spent three and a half years under the constant personal tutelage of the best Teacher this world has ever known. The words recorded in Matthew 28:19-20 were Jesus' last words on earth to them, and would have been remembered clearly, like the dying request of a parent. Can we think to improve upon the disciples' own practice? Can we think to know more clearly what Jesus said or meant than they did? Can we deny that the disciples always baptized in but one single name?
 
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Clare73

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It is a Messianic title. Not a reference to Jesus being God the Father. Christ is, as King Messiah enthroned at the right hand of the Father, the King, a father perpetually: as a king is a father of to the nation. Unlike temporal kings whose dominion is, well, temporal; the dominion of Christ is everlasting (Daniel 7:14), for He who came is exalted and given the name that is above every other name (Philippians 2:9-11).
The Son, of course, has never been without His Divine Glory,
for He has always been God and had glory with His Father (John 17:5),
Does not Php 2:7 indicate that he made himself nothing (emptied himself) by laying aside his glory (not his divinity), and Jn 17:5 indicate that the Father returned him to his previous position of glory?
 
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Jipsah

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Can we think to improve upon the disciples' own practice?
You think that they could improve on our Lord's own words? I don't.
Can we think to know more clearly what Jesus said
Maybe by reading it?
or meant than they did? Can we deny that the disciples always baptized in but one single name?
I'm sorry, but I don't hold with the UPC's notion that the baptismal formula is a magical incantation that doesn't "work" if spoken improperly. Our Lord said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You say that's not correct. Lessee, your word, or His? Hmmmm... after giving that almost 12 nanoseconds of consideration, I'm gonna have to go with His. But yours ran a close second.
 
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BibleLinguist

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You think that they could improve on our Lord's own words? I don't.

Maybe by reading it?

I'm sorry, but I don't hold with the UPC's notion that the baptismal formula is a magical incantation that doesn't "work" if spoken improperly. Our Lord said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You say that's not correct. Lessee, your word, or His? Hmmmm... after giving that almost 12 nanoseconds of consideration, I'm gonna have to go with His. But yours ran a close second.
Please accept my apologies if I was unclear, as I think you may have misunderstood. I am not saying Jesus was wrong. I'm saying the disciples correctly understood Jesus. They knew what he meant. Perhaps you have superior knowledge to the disciples, enough to know more than they did about what Jesus was saying; but for myself, I acknowledge that it was the disciples who were inspired to write scripture, and I have much to learn from them.
  • "Father" is not a name.
  • "Son" is not a name.
  • "Spirit" is not a name.
  • The son's name is "Jesus."
Perhaps you agree with those points. Now, what is the Father's name? and does the Spirit have a name?

Based on the disciples' practice, it seems clear that "Jesus" is the Father's name. This agrees with Jesus' own teaching that he had come in his Father's name, i.e. "Jesus" is their shared name. See John 5:43.

Matthew 28:19 quotes Jesus as saying "name," singular. There is only one name, and the disciples baptized in that name.
 
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ViaCrucis

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May I point out that Jesus' disciples had just spent three and a half years under the constant personal tutelage of the best Teacher this world has ever known. The words recorded in Matthew 28:19-20 were Jesus' last words on earth to them, and would have been remembered clearly, like the dying request of a parent. Can we think to improve upon the disciples' own practice? Can we think to know more clearly what Jesus said or meant than they did? Can we deny that the disciples always baptized in but one single name?

And didn't those same Apostles teach, instruct, and disciple others to carry on? So why do those who knew the Apostles, learned from them, and received from them as they had received from Jesus, not give us "Jesus' name baptism", but instead "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Please accept my apologies if I was unclear, as I think you may have misunderstood. I am not saying Jesus was wrong. I'm saying the disciples correctly understood Jesus. They knew what he meant. Perhaps you have superior knowledge to the disciples, enough to know more than they did about what Jesus was saying; but for myself, I acknowledge that it was the disciples who were inspired to write scripture, and I have much to learn from them.
  • "Father" is not a name.
  • "Son" is not a name.
  • "Spirit" is not a name.
  • The son's name is "Jesus."
Perhaps you agree with those points. Now, what is the Father's name? and does the Spirit have a name?

The common name applied to all Three Divine Persons is the Tetragrammaton. The Four-Letter Name of YHWH.

So if Jesus' intent was to baptize in a common Divine Name, then baptism in the name of YHWH is what we would see.

Based on the disciples' practice, it seems clear that "Jesus" is the Father's name. This agrees with Jesus' own teaching that he had come in his Father's name, i.e. "Jesus" is their shared name. See John 5:43.

Matthew 28:19 quotes Jesus as saying "name," singular. There is only one name, and the disciples baptized in that name.

No. The Father's name is not Jesus.

The singular name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as understood by the Apostles and the entire Christian Church since the beginning, is "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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And didn't those same Apostles teach, instruct, and disciple others to carry on? So why do those who knew the Apostles, learned from them, and received from them as they had received from Jesus, not give us "Jesus' name baptism", but instead "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

-CryptoLutheran
You ask a good question. It is an unfortunate fact of the human existence that things tend to be lost over time. Have you ever played the game called "gossip"? That game illustrates one possible way of losing information. But there are others. Sometimes people deliberately make changes.

Based on the Bible, however, it is safe to assume the apostles themselves carried a consistent message. I think John indicated that this would soon change, for he tells us that the spirit of antichrist would come, and was even beginning in his day (see 1 John 4:2-3).
 
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BibleLinguist

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The common name applied to all Three Divine Persons is the Tetragrammaton. The Four-Letter Name of YHWH.

So if Jesus' intent was to baptize in a common Divine Name, then baptism in the name of YHWH is what we would see.
This might be quite true if baptism were practiced in the Old Testament era. YHWH is a Hebrew word. The New Testament was not written in Hebrew, so this Hebrew name is not found there.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You ask a good question. It is an unfortunate fact of the human existence that things tend to be lost over time. Have you ever played the game called "gossip"? That game illustrates one possible way of losing information. But there are others. Sometimes people deliberately make changes.

Based on the Bible, however, it is safe to assume the apostles themselves carried a consistent message. I think John indicated that this would soon change, for he tells us that the spirit of antichrist would come, and was even beginning in his day (see 1 John 4:2-3).

Well then let's ask this question: What is more likely, that the generation of Christians who learned first-hand from the Apostles lost the plot, and we moderns can know something better than they; or that those closer in time to the Apostles and to when the New Testament was written probably had keener insights that we--without looking to them for wisdom and insight--might not have access to?

Or to put it another way: Let's say there is a guy named Bob, Bob has a friend named Steve and he wrote a bunch of letters to Steve over the years giving Steve all kinds of advice on personal issues Steve was dealing with. Now you, who never met Bob or Steve, find those old letters and read them. On the other hand, there are people who knew Steve and Bob personally. Who do you think has a better overall understanding? The people who personally knew Bob and Steve, or you who never met them but have read the letters Bob wrote to Steve? Mind you, all parties involved have the letters; so it's not a matter of who can read those letters or not--it's who is more likely to have a better grasp of the context and subtext of those letters?

That's the kind of issue we are dealing with when we are talking about the ancient fathers of the Church.

It seems odd to me to speak of a game of telephone where information can be lost down the chain, but if we do that then we must acknowledge that we are at the furthest end of that chain. Using that same metaphor, surely the second or third person in the chain has better retained the original information than the 1000th or 10,000th, right?

That's where I find the idea of thinking we today are somehow better or more qualified than the earliest generations of Christians to be, at the very least, an unwise presupposition to hold for ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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This might be quite true if baptism were practiced in the Old Testament era. YHWH is a Hebrew word. The New Testament was not written in Hebrew, so this Hebrew name is not found there.

I fail to see how that changes anything. You're right, the Tetragrammaton is not used in the New Testament; for a number of reasons. In ordinary Jewish practice the Sacred Name was not spoken, which is why the Septuagint (which is what the New Testament writers generally relied on, often even quoting it verbatim) rather than directly transliterating the Divine Name from Hebrew characters to Greek, instead supplies the Greek translation of the Hebrew word adonay, i.e., kyrios; meaning "lord". A tradition retained in Christian translations of Scripture such as the Peshitta, the Vulgate, and even early and modern English translations (where the Tetragrammaton is often rendered with the capitalized typeface "LORD" or "GOD").

But had there been a singular Divine Name to baptize into, it would be this one. But that isn't what they did. Even using the Septuagint tradition of rendering the Tetragrammaton into the Greek Kyrios--"Lord".

The claim you are making is something which the Apostles did not teach, at no point was it ever taught that the Father's name is also Jesus. Had that ever been taught, we'd see it taught.

What you are engaging in is what I'd call "de-coder ring hermeneutics", it is a form of reading the Bible trying to find tiny clues and build up theological propositions by way of trying to find hidden information. As though if we read the Bible in just the right way, we can find hidden doctrines or secret truths. That isn't a good way to read the Bible, it's a bad hermeneutic.

If it was ever taught that the Father's name was Jesus, then it would be said so frankly and unambiguously, if not in Scripture itself, we'd at least see it somewhere in the testimony and witness of the ancient Church more broadly. But we don't. In fact, we find the exact opposite.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BibleLinguist

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Well then let's ask this question: What is more likely, that the generation of Christians who learned first-hand from the Apostles lost the plot, and we moderns can know something better than they; or that those closer in time to the Apostles and to when the New Testament was written probably had keener insights that we--without looking to them for wisdom and insight--might not have access to?

Or to put it another way: Let's say there is a guy named Bob, Bob has a friend named Steve and he wrote a bunch of letters to Steve over the years giving Steve all kinds of advice on personal issues Steve was dealing with. Now you, who never met Bob or Steve, find those old letters and read them. On the other hand, there are people who knew Steve and Bob personally. Who do you think has a better overall understanding? The people who personally knew Bob and Steve, or you who never met them but have read the letters Bob wrote to Steve? Mind you, all parties involved have the letters; so it's not a matter of who can read those letters or not--it's who is more likely to have a better grasp of the context and subtext of those letters?

That's the kind of issue we are dealing with when we are talking about the ancient fathers of the Church.

It seems odd to me to speak of a game of telephone where information can be lost down the chain, but if we do that then we must acknowledge that we are at the furthest end of that chain. Using that same metaphor, surely the second or third person in the chain has better retained the original information than the 1000th or 10,000th, right?

That's where I find the idea of thinking we today are somehow better or more qualified than the earliest generations of Christians to be, at the very least, an unwise presupposition to hold for ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
There is no one in the world today who knew the apostles personally. We all have their writings.

Your example seems to be trying to give more credence to people who knew the apostles in their day than to what the apostles actually wrote. If I write a diary, recording my inmost thoughts, and a member of my household writes about me--which of our writings, assuming they are discovered centuries down the road, should have more credibility? That's sort of how I am understanding your analogy, would this be correct? But why, then, should we accept anything less than what the apostles themselves had written?

I fail to see how that changes anything. You're right, the Tetragrammaton is not used in the New Testament; for a number of reasons. In ordinary Jewish practice the Sacred Name was not spoken, which is why the Septuagint (which is what the New Testament writers generally relied on, often even quoting it verbatim) rather than directly transliterating the Divine Name from Hebrew characters to Greek, instead supplies the Greek translation of the Hebrew word adonay, i.e., kyrios; meaning "lord". A tradition retained in Christian translations of Scripture such as the Peshitta, the Vulgate, and even early and modern English translations (where the Tetragrammaton is often rendered with the capitalized typeface "LORD" or "GOD").

But had there been a singular Divine Name to baptize into, it would be this one. But that isn't what they did. Even using the Septuagint tradition of rendering the Tetragrammaton into the Greek Kyrios--"Lord".

The Septuagint was translated after the taboo against pronouncing Yahweh had developed, and the writers of the New Testament were addressing a culture which had not pronounced this "ineffable" name for a couple centuries or so. They had no equivalent for it in Greek, and were forced to translate it as the Greek equivalent for "adonai," the Hebrew word most often substituted for the divine name. However, the Greek "kyrios" still had its own usage which was not equivalent to YHWH. This is clear from a comparison of Matthew 22:32 and Romans 14:9 where it is simply not possible that "Lord" could have been "God", and I think we would all agree that YHWH is God.

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)​
"For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." (Romans 14:9)​


Christ is Lord of the dead. God is not the God of the dead. Biblically speaking, we have a clear distinction made between "God" and "Lord." They are not the same. The only times when "kyrios" is a reference to God is when it is clearly used in substitution for the Hebrew divine name.
 
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There is no one in the world today who knew the apostles personally. We all have their writings.

Correct.

But, historically, there were people who did.

I think what they had to say carries a lot of weight.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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