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Understanding the Sabbath

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ydouxist

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I still want to know about leap years? :confused:
Julius Ceasar instituted them in 46 BC.
Pope Gregory XV111 on Oct 5 1582 added 10 days making it the 15th.:scratch:

Every 4 years we add a day to the week skipping an entire day.
What if the day we skip is a "Sabbath Day"?

I set aside one day a week which happens to be Sunday in which I don't open my restaurant. My employees also have that day to rest. I'm not legalistic I just believe this was the intent of the Sabbath. :holy: IMHO
 
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adam332

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ydouxist,
I appreciate that question...but the premise is faulty. There is not a day added to a week when a leap year occurs. There is a day added to the year. IOW...it is a simple manner of counting to seven and then starting over again. That does not change, no matter how many days in the year their are. Monday always follows Sunday, Tuesday always follows Monday...etc. The Seventh day Sabbath is always after Friday at sundown.

I appreciate the fact that you try to keep a day as the Sabbath. This is something that I do not often see. Many Sunday advocates go out purchase goods on Sunday or go out to eat after church...all the while trying to convince us that the observation of Sabbath has been transferred to Sunday. The truth be told the only custom which they continue in is that of worship while dropping the rest as if they never existed.

They have also disregarded the day that was memorialized to creation and have substituted as a day to recognize the resurrection. So where is their memorial to creation if they claim that the new Sabbath is Sunday. They have abandoned such memorial...just another example of unfounded belief structure that comes when you try to justify changing the word of God and replace it with man-made tradition. If Sunday is the new Sabbath why doesn't it's observation look like a mirror of Godly Sabbath keeping?

Let me urge you to consider that man-traditions are but temporary and that God's are eternal...the Sabbath has stood from creation and will continue on with twice the significance when he recreates the world anew. For even in the new heavens and new earth shall all flesh worship him on His one and only Holy day. He made it for you, he blessed it for you...use it with the honor and significance in which it was given.
 
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adam332

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deu,
you said;
"who(Ignatius) I believe wrote the book of Revelation."

Well, if that is the case then you must discount the entire book of Revelation, and everything else you believe that he wrote, as a lie. For in the book of Revelation the author identifies himself as John, five times! If he wrote that book, then he was a liar and, no authority can be given to any of it.
 
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Justme

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Hi forum,

People here have spent a great deal of time on this topic of the sabbath. My question is ...does the bible actually ever refer to the sabbath as the 'Lord's day?'
To explain, the phrase 'day of the Lord' is used many times which is NOT the sabbath and it would follow that the day of the Lord would mean the same as the Lord's day.

I have always referred to the sabbath as the Lord's day as well, but does the bible ever actually refer to the sabbath as such?

Thanks,

Justme
 
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William1

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Justme;

I usually have to laugh when people talk about the Day of the Lord being on Sunday, for their prophecy always fails. Sometimes I bother correcting them, but usually I just let it be, they will soon enough find out about the Lord’s Day and that it is not on each Sunday, however each Sunday will be replayed for them on that DAY.

The Lord’s Day is that Dreadful Day of Reckoning.

Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremiah 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The Lord’s Day or YaHVeH’s Day is not one that will cause the sinner any delight. This Day of all days is to be feared for it is the Great Day in which God will avenge Himself of all the liars, the sinners, who refused to change their evil ways and spoke maliciously against the Commandments and His Ways.

William
 
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Symes

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People here have spent a great deal of time on this topic of the sabbath. My question is ...does the bible actually ever refer to the sabbath as the 'Lord's day?'
To explain, the phrase 'day of the Lord' is used many times which is NOT the sabbath and it would follow that the day of the Lord would mean the same as the Lord's day.

I have always referred to the sabbath as the Lord's day as well, but does the bible ever actually refer to the sabbath as such?

Thanks,

Justme
Revelation 1:10
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...."

God does have a day. When we see what day Jesus worshioped on it heps us see what day is the Lord's day.

That being Sabbath. There is no other day that is the Lord's
 
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adam332

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Exo. 20:10 "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God..."

Lev.23:3 "... the seventh day...it is the sabbath of the LORD ..."

Deu.5:14 "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God..."

Mat.12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luke 6:5 "... the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

There are still, 15 additional instances which all show clearly that the Christ calls the seventh day “my Sabbath(s)”, again laying ownership of only one special day, (
Exo. 31:13, Lev. 19:3, 30, 26:2, Isa. 56:4, Eze. 20:12,13,16,20,21,24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24).

 
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adam332

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William..."the Lord's day" and "the day of the Lord" are scripturally two different things.

Though John was exiled from all of like faith, and almost from the world, he was not exiled from God, nor from Christ, nor from the Holy Spirit, nor from angels. He still had communion with his divine Lord. The expression "in the Spirit" seems to denote the highest state of spiritual elevation into which a person can be brought by the Spirit of God. It marked the beginning of his vision.

"On the Lord's Day."--What day is intended by this designation? On this question four different positions are taken by various classes. On class holds that the expression "the Lord's day" covers the whole gospel age, and does not mean any particular twenty-four-hour day. Another class holds that the Lord's day is the day of judgement, the future "day of the Lord" so often brought to view in the Scriptures. A third view is that the expression refers to the first day of the week. Still another class holds that it means the seventh day, the Sabbath of the Lord.

To the first of these positions it is sufficient to reply that the book of Revelation is dated by John on the Isle of Patmos, and upon the Lord's day. The writer, the place where it was written, and the day upon which it was dated, have each a real existence, no merely a symbolical or mystical one. But if we say that the day means the gospel age, we give it a symbolical or mystical meaning, which is not admissible. Why would it be necessary for John to explain that he was writing in the "Lord's day" if it meant the gospel age? It is well known that the book of Revelation was written some sixty-five years after the death of Christ.

The second position, that it is the day of judgement, cannot be correct. Though John might have had a vision concerning the day of judgement, he could not have had one on that day when it is yet future. The word translated "on" is {GREEK CHARACTERS IN PRINTED TEXT}, en, and is defined by Thayer when relating to time: "Periods and portions of time in which anything occurs, in, on, at, during." It never means "about" or "concerning." Hence those who refer it to the judgement day either contradict the language used, making it mean "concerning" instead of "on," or they make John state a strange falsehood by saying that he had a vision upon the Isle of Patmos, nearly eighteen hundred years ago, on the day of judgement which is yet future.

The third view, that by "Lord's day" is meant the first day of the week, is the one most generally entertained. On this we inquire for the proof. What evidence have we for this assertion? The text itself does not define the term "the Lord's day;" hence if it means the first day of the week, we must look elsewhere in the Bible for the proof that that day of the week is ever so designated. The only other inspired writers who speak of the first day at all, are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Paul; and they speak of it simply as "the first day of the week." They never speak of it in a manner to distinguish it above any other of the six working days. This is the more remarkable, viewed from the popular standpoint, as three of them speak of it at the very time when it is said to have become the Lord's day by the resurrection of the Lord upon the first day of the week, and two of them mention it some thirty years after that event.

If it is said that "the Lord's day" was the usual term for the first day of the week in John's day, we ask, Where is the proof of this? It cannot be found. In truth, we have proof of the contrary. If this were the universal designation of the first day of the week at the time the Revelation was written, the same writer would most assuredly call it so in all his subsequent writings. But John wrote his Gospel after he wrote the Revelation, and yet in that Gospel he calls the first day of the week, not "the Lord's day," but simply "the first day of the week." For proof that John's Gospel was written at a period subsequent to the Revelation, the reader is referred to standard authorities.

The claim here set up in behalf of the first day, is still further disproved by the fact that neither the Father nor the Son has ever claimed the first day as His own in any higher sense than He has each or any or the other labouring days. Neither of them has ever placed any blessing upon it, or attached any sanctity to it. If it were to be called the Lord's day from the fact of Christ's resurrection upon it, Inspiration would doubtless have somewhere so informed us. But there are other events equally essential to the plan of salvation, such as the crucifixion and the ascension; and in the absence of all instruction upon the point, why not call the day upon which either of these occurred, the Lord's day, as well as the day upon which He rose from the dead?

Since the three positions already examined have been disproved, the fourth-- that by Lord's day is meant the Sabbath of the Lord--now demands attention. This of itself is susceptible of the clearest proof. When God gave to man in the beginning six days of the week for labour, He expressly reserved the seventh day to Himself, placed His blessing upon it, and claimed it as His holy day. (Genesis 2: 1-3.) Moses told Israel in the wilderness of Sin on the sixth day of the week, "Tomorrow is the rest of the Sabbath unto the Lord." Exodus 16: 23.

We come to Sinai, where the great Lawgiver proclaimed His moral precepts in awful grandeur; and in that supreme code He thus lays claim to His hallowed day: "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God:. . . for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." By the prophet Isaiah, about eight hundred years later, God spoke as follows: "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day, . . . then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord," Isaiah 58: 13.

We come to New Testament times, and He who is one with the Father declares expressly, "The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." Mark 2: 28. Can any man deny that that day is the Lord's day, of which He has emphatically declared that He is the Lord? Thus we see that whether it be the Father or the Son whose title is involved, no other day can be called the Lord's day but the Sabbath of the great Creator.

There is in the Christian Era one day distinguished above the other days of the week as "the Lord's day." How completely this great fact disproves the claim put forth by some that there is no Sabbath in the gospel age but that all days are alike! By calling it the Lord's day, the apostle has given us, near the close of the first century, apostolic sanction for the observance of the only day which can be called the Lord's day, which is the seventh day of the week.

When Christ was on earth, He clearly designated which day was His day by saying, "The Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day." Matthew 12: 8. If He had said instead, not that now be set forth as conclusive proof that Sunday is the Lord's day--Certainly, and with good reason. Then it ought to be allowed to have the same weight for the seventh day, in reference to which it was spoken.

By Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation
 
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William1

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Hi Adam;

I am not sure if you wrote this or if this is a quote from another writer, for the ending of your post would seem to disclaim you as the writer, be it as it may, I would like to examine at least one paragraph from the article/post.

adam332 said:
The second position, that it is the day of judgement, cannot be correct. Though John might have had a vision concerning the day of judgement, he could not have had one on that day when it is yet future.
Let me ask you this, are you saying that John or for that matter any prophet, can not be propelled into the future to see things yet to come via his spirit and then in the spirit be returned back again to the era which he lived in?
 
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adam332

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You are correct I did not write that. But yes I would have to say that no part of a created being can be propelled into the future, that would mean omni-presence which I don't see as being a trait of his creation EVER. Secondly, please note the terminology differences. Thirdly, John claims that he had visions while in the spirit of the future. I know of nowhere that any prophet has actually claimed that their spirit actually time travelled to the actual future. Fourthly, his visions were mostly symbolic...IOW if he were actually propelled into the future in any form I doubt that he would come back and say he saw a harlot riding some beast that was hanging out on the water. Most of His visions of the future was GIVEN symbolically, therefore it leads me to believe that he did not see actual events in a different time.
 
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deu58

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You and William become more confusing and keep moving farther away from Scripture as this thread progresses. I suppose now you are going tell me the Lords day which Ignatius claims is the Resurrection day Is also the Sabbath?

And now William claims in time we will see the light and acknowledge that not only will we see the that we should keep the weekly Sabbath but all of the Old Testament Sabbaths. And apparently you disagree that John could have been taken to the future for you have deemed it impossible that God could do such a thing.

William is still at the posistion that Constantine changed the Sabbath, The original posistion the Seventh Day Adventists held for many years claiming everybody else was being decieved by uninspired writers. Today they are now at your position, Hadrian in 135 ad. And if you do not believe them it is because you are under the influence of uninspired writers.

In the beginning of the apostilic ministry yes they kept the Sabbath. Even at Pentecost the disciples were not yet aware that salvation had been opened to the Gentiles. This was not revealed to them until Peter had his vision in acts 10 and went to the house of Cornelius. The first Gentile Christians were converted from Judaism to Christianity. These held to things taught in the Law of Moses.

By and by Pagans began accepting Christ who never practised any type of Judaism and the law of Mose meant nothing to them. Considering that Jews were the first persecutors of the Christians it does not seem likly that there were too many of the newly converted lining up outside the synagogues to learn about him either.

This lead to the council meeting held in Jerusalem we read about in Acts 15.
Because Paul and Barnabas were not teaching Moses but Christ risen. In these early days some kept the Sabbath, some began keeping Sunday and some actually kept both days.

Even in the beginining there were people like you and William who insisted that the Sabbath and other Jewish holy days must be kept. This gave rise to such verses as Rom.14:5, Gal 4:9-10, Col2:16.

But I am sure that if we leave it to people like you and william you will be able to retranslate or reedit these verses to something more to your liking.

Then after you and william have finished here you should go to the Jewish websites and post there to. William can retranslate all the Hebrew for them using his Strongs so they can learn how to tell time. I am sure they would be gratefull.

Paul spent his life fighting and dealing with people like you and William. You, I am sure, disagree with all this so I will ask you one simple qustion. Paul covered every aspect of living in Christ and proper service to God through
Christ. As he was teaching Pagans who knew nothing about Moses or The Law, why did he not instruct them that the Sabbath must be kept as the proper day to worship? How could something that you and others like you deem so vitally important not be taught by the Apostles in New Testament scriptures?

yours in Christ
deu58
 
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Justme

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Hi Forum,

I got some interesting replies to my question, thank you all very much.

This is a quote from Uriah Smith, a SDA author:

The second position, that it is the day of judgement, cannot be correct. Though John might have had a vision concerning the day of judgement, he could not have had one on that day when it is yet future. The word translated "on" is {GREEK CHARACTERS IN PRINTED TEXT}, en, and is defined by Thayer when relating to time: "Periods and portions of time in which anything occurs, in, on, at, during." It never means "about" or "concerning." Hence those who refer it to the judgement day either contradict the language used, making it mean "concerning" instead of "on," or they make John state a strange falsehood by saying that he had a vision upon the Isle of Patmos, nearly eighteen hundred years ago, on the day of judgement which is yet future.
******************************************

Here his reasoning for it being incorrect is because it does not agree with his doctrine about when it says the judgement(great tribulation) is. For those who believe the great tribulation was in 70 AD, Rev 1:10 becomes another proof text. John's vision was a Heavenly view of the day of the Lord and John had the vision on that day would be what the verses literally say.

So now the next step would be to determine if there is any documentation of when John was in Patmos, Does anyone here know of anyhing?

Thanks
Justme



 
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adam332

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I have not moved one iota away from what is scriptural.

I do understand Williams beliefs though, and respect why he believes what he does. He believes that since those particular days have future fulfillment as well we are still bound to them until they are fulfilled completely. They are not like other ceremonial laws such as lamb offerings which have no future application. A good example of this is passover. He apparently believes that it is still applicable, yet I believe it has been altered by the presentation at the last supper. I feel that my invovelment in the communion service during that time, fulfills the entire passover. He may not...it may be simply a matter of my understanding is less complete than his, or vice-versa.

For your info, you and others seem to like pointing the fingers at SDA's as the culprit for this Sabbath keeping which you disagree with. It was actually a Seventh Day Baptist women who had come to America from Europe who was responsible for introducing the Bible Sabbath back into mainstream protestantism. She had met with a group of Millerites who fancied themselves very big on prophecy studies. They met with her...she explained the Sabbath out of the scriptures, as any good Berean would. They then took back their conviction on the Sabbath to the rest of the Millerites. Later these Sabbath keeping Millerites were divided on how to proceed with their church, which caused a split. One group became SDA, the other Seventh Day Church of God. The rest is Sabbatarian history.

William is partially right in his contentions about Constantine, in that he was the one who officially indoctrinated this practice into the empire. Just like most everything, it's beginnings though unofficial, had already taken root.

Acts 15 does not discuss any of the ten commands nor the Sabbath. No mention whatsoever. Their focus was on the ceremonial laws of Moses that were fulfilled at the cross. What God etched into stone with His own finger were never in dispute amongst the spirit filled. The Sabbath was a memorial to creation instituted before sin and had NOTHING to do with the redemption or justification thereof. If you want to accuse the Lord for not knowing how to categorize His own laws, be my guest. In the early days, as you say, implying the time of the events around Acts 15, there is not a single shred of Biblical or historical evidence that indicates any doubt about the complete validity of the Sabbath. Furthermore, Sunday alike had absolutely no Biblical importance placed upon it ever, neither does ANY authoratative history record that any Christian or Jewish convert ever considered Sunday as representative of anything other than a day of work. Such compromise came much later after all His disciples were dead, period.

For your info, Col. 2 validates God's Sabbath immeasurably and discredits the legalistic additions that are found in the Mishnah. Go back a little further in this thread and look for posts of mine regarding it, so I do not have to repeat myself simply because you want to read falsehoods into the scripture. If you honestly cannot find it, I'll understand because this is beginning to be a really long thread, and I will try to recap it for you.

Your mention of Rom. 14:5 is completely without merit as well. Such argument can only be construed from it, if taken alone while ignoring the context of the entire chapter. That chapter is specifically speaking of feasting and fasting days, there is absolutely no mention of the Sabbath in there at all. But, that doesn't stop you from using it, now does it? I understand that you are desparate to find any ammunition whatsoever to back up your un-Biblical behavior. But if you want to come to a Bible discussion forum be prepared for those who know how to read in context, and actually apply things to the subject in which they are referring.

Gal. 4 is likewise out of context, Paul is not condemning the observation of these things, but the manner in which it is done. Christ did this as well. He is speaking of dead works, done out of obligation and not love. The manner in which his commands are to be done is in the heart...and the flesh will follow. Might want to do a little research on the spirit and the letter of the law, it is a rather large subject so I do not know how you could miss the relevance to such. That said, the Sabbath is like any other works, if done for the wrong motive it is meaningless to Him. Paul touches on this often, as did Christ and James. Let me give you a hint... faith without works is dead. It is the love that leads you to good works, the love MUST come first if you expect to honor God with any behavior. Remember the rich young ruler who had kept all the commands since he was a child, but when asked to follow Christ...where was His faith? Get it?

Actually, Paul spent His lifetime dealing with mainly two types of people; the legalistic Phariseeical types who tried to impose their additional laws into God's doctrines, and those who immediately tried to compromise the faith by dragging it's standards down to a wordly level. Intersetingly, we see that it is you who have put yor faith in mans additions in place God's doctrines, in order to drag it down to a worldly level. Therefore, you actually have some of both of the major problems that Paul so often spoke of. I am trying my best to keep His word with the love intended and the manner in which he prescribed, and not that of mans.

Might want to know your history, Bible and context a little better before you get into it again with me, about the Sabbath. Excuse the sarcasm, but....schools out.
 
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adam332

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Just me,
I am not sure what your getting at. The day of the Lord IS a future event at the coming wrath of the Lord. I know that the 70 Ad destruction was a shadow of this future event, as was the flood, as was God's deliverance of His people from Egypt, as was the battle of Gideon. But what is it your are saying about his conclusion. Please elaborate or rephrase.
 
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Justme

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Hi Adam,

There are many who consider the Great tribulation to be a past event, myself included. I do not see it as a shadow of anything, it is a once in creation occurance according to scripture as I see it. I am just looking thru biblical verses and outside information to see if Rev 1:10 can be used as a proof text.

I had always read the meaning of Lord's day in Rev 1:1 as being the sabath day, but have recently started to look into the possibility that John was actually in the spirit in Heaven on the actual biblical day of the Lord as Rev 1:10 might be saying.

Many here have said the day of the Lord and the Lord's day are two events, others say it is the sabbath day. Interesting reading, but not yet definitive.

Justme
 
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William1

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Hey deu

Col 2 has to do with Paul dismissing the man made teachings which were prevalent at that time.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

If you will take note that verse 16 is enveloped between the above two verses which deal with man made teachings, which were contrary to God’s Commandments.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

There is nothing in this verse which would dismiss the keeping of the Sabbath, the New Moons, or the annual Feasts. In fact if there was, than Paul was not a holy man, but an apostate.

Adam, I have touched on Rev 1:10 and do not find the “Lord’s Day” within that verse. What I do find is the same spelling as in the following verses.

2 John 1-5
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children,.....
5 And now I beseech thee, lady,......

It would appear that “the lady” refers to the church, however the Lord’s Day does not exist in Rev 1:10. So it refers to the Lady and her message for the day.

William
 
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William1

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Hey Adam
I am reading from the Greek Vaticanus Codex. I do not find “Kurios” = lord in Rev 1:10 but in place of it I find, “kuria” = lady. The same spelling as in 2 John 1 and 5. Soooo, Revelations 1:10 has absolutely nothing to do with the Lord’s Day. I suppose the translators were trying to support Sunday worship when they translated this passage.
William
By the way, the byz, n26 and the tr manuscripts all agree with my findings.
 
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