Understanding the Sabbath

[razzelflabben]

Thanks deu58, that was actually quite helpful. I really don't have any specific questions, just someone who is always hungry to know God. I scare many people off because I believe what the word of God says even when it is hard to follow, believe, or understand. I believe that if we study it enough we will never find a discrepency or contridiction in scripture and that if we follow it's teachings, we will prosper even if we live in the type of poverty that will result in our starving to death. Because we do not understand things the way God does, does not make us right, it means that we need to find more of God. I guess this is why I have been so confused by this thread and where it is and has gone. Because, I am really too simple minded when it comes to the things of God.

What is a razzelflabben, well, there used to be a radio program for children in which the children would visit the razzelflabben's and learn many important things. (The program always aired in the same slot as Jungle Jam and Friends. The razzelflabbens are very colorful (personalities) creatures and often see things that others don't. The children would get to the razzelflabben island by water which I guess for me is like being washed by the Holy Spirit. The name became my "handle" because I tried all kinds of other names that were already taken and I got frustrated with trying to find something so I asked my kids what to try (we have 5 children) they all said razzelflabben so I have kind of become razzelflabben on the internet and found a lot of similar characteristics as I think of these odd creatures. (yea, I'd classify myself as one very odd creature)

 

[Symes]

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK WE SET ASSIDE FOR THE SABBATH. IT DOES MATTER THAT WE OBSERVE THE SABBATH. (razzelflabben)

Let me ask you a question. If your birthday was on October 10 would like to just take any day that you thought was convenient as your birthday and celebrate on that day. Even if you were to choose October 9 would it change the fact that your birthday was on October 10?

We need to go through this one point at a time so that the issue of what day we should worship on becomes clear to you.

 

[razzelflabben]

My birthdate would not change, but ask my children, often we celebrate birthdays on the closest convienient date to that birthday. The children have never felt slighted in the least. In fact, the children are more excited by the fact that they are allowed an entire day to celebrate them then they are that they were actually born on a certain day of the year.

for example, our daughter was born on Oct. 28th. It is her choice every year that we celebrate on the day that trick or treat is. (Before you get started, this is not a discussion on halloweeen and it's celebration so I will totally refrain in this thread from answering any questions about how we do or do not do halloween if you are that interested, pm me or start another thread and invite me) This is her preferrence. One of many reasons for this is that her father is usually able to take some time from his busy schedule to focus his attention on her and celebrate her joining into our family. Has this changed her birthdate, NO does is take away from our celebration or her joining of the family NO.

How is God any different. If I can rest and focus on the Sabbath on Wed., is this upsetting to God. I dare say it is not. Rather God would rather have a full day of sabbath observance than a partial, half hearted celebration on a given day of the week. Is this not why God says, 'remember the sabbath and keep it holy' not because there is anything sacred about a given day but because it is our Holy and awesome God that is sacred!!!!

 

[razzelflabben]

k4c I hope you don't mind me posting this here, you pm box was full. If it is a problem, please accept my appology, I don't mean to offend.

No arguement from me as long as we understand that the sabbath is not limited to this inward understanding but that there are physical reasons for honoring the sabbath as well and we must advocate for those who have no choise so that they have the oppertunity for not only in inward reminders but the physical rewards as well.


I don't think God is really that concerned with the hours we work. I believe the real picture He is trying to give us is spiritual. The reason for this is because what if I only work three days a week how does the Sabbath fall into this or what if I'm a pastor and only work on the Sabbath day. I believe the reason for so many disagreements between believers is because we're trying apply the Sabbath literally when God is just trying to give us an inward picture of what He wants to do in us.

I also believe there is a day set aside that God blessed for us where we can gather in His name in worship and praise and it's the seventh day, Saturday.

Blessings to in Christ,
John

A couple of thoughts for you on this issue. One thought is that in the ten commandments, in which this command is reinforced with the other commands, which commands should we not take literally? Though shall not murder, commit adultry, honor your father and mother? They are all to be taken literally. We can apply an inward understanding to each in fact, my children and I resently had a lesson about the inward lessons of being obedient, but this in no way means that I should only focus on the inward part of obeying.
Second thought, since when does work only occur when I punch in on the time clock? Ask any mother how many hours a day she works. In fact, when Jesus taught the Pharisees about the sabbath He did not tell them that they were not understanding the heart of the law by taking it literally but rather that the litteral could not become legalistic.
I think that you are right in the inward idea of sabbath, and I think that way to many people have no concept of what you are saying. In fact, I didn't even think of it in that way until I read your post. It makes total sense and is totally in line with the totality of scripture. But, we must also we careful to understand that the outward and the inward are both scriptural, both Godly, and both commands. There are many people in this world who work 7 days a week and it is very oppressive. The majority of the old law, was set up to deal with the physical needs of the people. One very easy example of this is the idea of eating pork. In the early biblical accounts, cooking methods were not good. There is a worm that lives in pork that if not cooked well, can make you sick or die. This is why you are never asked in a restuarant if you want your pork rare. By the time that we were released from this law, cooking methods were much better than earilier and thus the health issue was not as great. The same is true for the sabbath. It is healthy for man to have a time of rest. My husband and I both work 12-14 hour days 7 days a week. 365 days a year no vacation, no sick days, etc. Christmas day, I simply refused to work. My husband would have lost his job so he worked but I refused. I still cooked and picked up and cared for my children but for the first time in many years, I felt like I could deal with the day, that I had a purpose. I rested, I had a sabbath and that literal time of rest allowed me a new oppertunity to focus on God and the inward rest in Christ. Literal rest is vital to the physical, mental and spirtiual life. If it were not so, Jesus would have told the pharisees so. Instead, what he said was that we cannot be legalistic in our observance of the sabbath.

(By the way, I have yet to meet a pastor that only works one day a week the average for those I know are 6-7 even for those that are part time, it usually runs between 4-7 and having married a pk and an mk and having gone through seminary with my husband and having works along side him in a few churches, I know quite a few pasors personally)

 

[adam332]

God blessed and sanctified "THE" seventh day for man, on the very day that he established it. Do you want the sabbath blessing he has left there for you? How can you get it by treating the first day as you would the sabbath? Do you think that the Lord slides it around as to each persons own habits? Do you think you have the power transfer his blessing to the day which happens to be the most convenient?

Did Cain's convienent offering please God?

When the leper was told to wash in a specific river, do you think he would have been cleansed if he had disobeyed and washed whereever was most convenient?

When Joshua was told to march around the city with the very specific instructions, was he given credit for simply the intent or did he actually have to perform it as was instructed?

There are hundreds of examples throughout the scriptures where people did things their own way and failed. Why? If you have faith in his word and his instruction instead of your own more convenient methods, God will give you what has been promised.

It may be more convenient to buy your groceries at the corner hardware store, but tell that to the guy behind the counter when you ask him why he doesn't carry carrots. There is no honoring God in disobeying his clear instructions, no matter your intent or how inconvenient it it to heed his instructions.

Do people feel they are honoring God when they assasinate abortion doctors? Isn't murder a sin? Do you really feel that their intent overrides their blatant disobedience?

Intent or convenience holds absolutely no candle to obedience to God's specific instruction, period.

 

[deu58]

k4c I hope you don't mind me posting this here, you pm box was full. If it is a problem, please accept my appology, I don't mean to offend.


A couple of thoughts for you on this issue. One thought is that in the ten commandments, in which this command is reinforced with the other commands, which commands should we not take literally? Though shall not murder, commit adultry, honor your father and mother? They are all to be taken literally. We can apply an inward understanding to each in fact, my children and I resently had a lesson about the inward lessons of being obedient, but this in no way means that I should only focus on the inward part of obeying.
Second thought, since when does work only occur when I punch in on the time clock? Ask any mother how many hours a day she works. In fact, when Jesus taught the Pharisees about the sabbath He did not tell them that they were not understanding the heart of the law by taking it literally but rather that the litteral could not become legalistic.
I think that you are right in the inward idea of sabbath, and I think that way to many people have no concept of what you are saying. In fact, I didn't even think of it in that way until I read your post. It makes total sense and is totally in line with the totality of scripture. But, we must also we careful to understand that the outward and the inward are both scriptural, both Godly, and both commands. There are many people in this world who work 7 days a week and it is very oppressive. The majority of the old law, was set up to deal with the physical needs of the people. One very easy example of this is the idea of eating pork. In the early biblical accounts, cooking methods were not good. There is a worm that lives in pork that if not cooked well, can make you sick or die. This is why you are never asked in a restuarant if you want your pork rare. By the time that we were released from this law, cooking methods were much better than earilier and thus the health issue was not as great. The same is true for the sabbath. It is healthy for man to have a time of rest. My husband and I both work 12-14 hour days 7 days a week. 365 days a year no vacation, no sick days, etc. Christmas day, I simply refused to work. My husband would have lost his job so he worked but I refused. I still cooked and picked up and cared for my children but for the first time in many years, I felt like I could deal with the day, that I had a purpose. I rested, I had a sabbath and that literal time of rest allowed me a new oppertunity to focus on God and the inward rest in Christ. Literal rest is vital to the physical, mental and spirtiual life. If it were not so, Jesus would have told the pharisees so. Instead, what he said was that we cannot be legalistic in our observance of the sabbath.

(By the way, I have yet to meet a pastor that only works one day a week the average for those I know are 6-7 even for those that are part time, it usually runs between 4-7 and having married a pk and an mk and having gone through seminary with my husband and having works along side him in a few churches, I know quite a few pasors personally)

Hello razzelflabben

Nice post is your husband still a pastor?

Yours in Christ
deu58

 

[adam332]

For the record of those who love to label people as an obvious effort of discrediting people. SDA church is the only sabbatarian church available for me to attend.

When I lived in tennessee there were 4 different sabbatarian denominations of which I attended three from time to time. If there were another sabbatarian church whose doctrines were similar in nature to what i have found in the Bible, I would be happy to attend there.

The bottom line is that it has NOTHING to do whether we go to this church or that one. You do not hear me saying deu is this denomination or k4c is that one, the reason being is the scripture is the source for truth, period. I am here to reason from the scriptures, period. Anything more or less is an effort to take focus off the truth of the word in hopes that prejudices will flare. This is part of certain peoples twisting of facts, unscriptural study methods, and deceitful posting....anything to take the focus off the subject. This thread is way too long for all the good it has done. The fault lies in the cheap tactics by certain individuals who ignore repeated facts and make broad sweeping staements, all without having studied for themselves, only the condemned teachings of others.

razzle,
if you truly don't know much about the subject of the sunday/sabbath issue. get out of here right now and do not look at another word of mine or anyones. discount everything that you think you know about the subject as completely false. Study long and hard on what the bible says about the sabbath and about the 1st day, answer any questions you have for yourself using the scripture only. Come to your own conclusion based on NOTHING except what the bible says, in it you will find the truth.

 

[deu58]

Hello all

The purpose of this post is to lay the ground work for a future post on Adam 332's view of Galatians. First it will be necessary to understand the basis of Paul's teaching to understand what he was teaching. The message Paul was delivering to the Galatians is no different than any other teaching on the Law in all his epistles. It is the same man expressing the same teaching to different churches.

Recently an article was posted on Galatians to support this persons contention that the certain sections of the Law of Moses still apply to the believer today. First it needs to be recognized that when Paul spoke on the law he meant the entire law of Moses. When Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles he ran into opposition from certain Jews claiming that the Gentiles must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses.

Ac 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

It is important to note that these were Christian Jews who were teaching this so the idea that they were teaching that we must follow any kind of sacrificial or oral law fails right here. What they were trying to enforce on the new gentile believers are the some the very same principals that
some would try to force on the believer today.

This lead to the council in Jerusalem that would set the tone of Paul's teaching on the Mosaic Law

Ac 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Again there can be no doubt that these are Pharisee's who believe that Jesus is the messiah and that he did rise from the dead. The concept that they were speaking of an oral or ceremonial law is without merit.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Ac 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

These statements from Peter show that the apostles disagreed and came to the conclusion that IF the Gentiles wanted to learn of Moses they
could attend the synagogue service and learn of him there. It should be noted that this was in line with Jewish tradition and custom.

When we read of the Gentile proselytes who accepted the Judaic teachings in the New Testament it needs to be understood this did not make them Jews. They were not bound then nor today by the 613 commandments of the Mosaic law. The Jews today still hold to this same practice concerning Gentile Proselytes. The proselyte is bound by seven laws only.

The following is copied from the Ahavet Israel website,
*The Children of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world. They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noachide Laws.
These Seven Universal Laws pertain to:
*Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
*Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
*Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
*Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
*Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
*Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
*Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.
Men and women are equal in their responsibility to observe the Seven Universal Laws.
*When a Gentile resolves to fulfill the Seven Universal Laws, his or her soul is elevated. This person becomes one of the "Chasidei Umot Haolam" (Pious Ones of the Nations) and receives a share of the World to Come. The Torah calls one who accepts the yoke of fulfilling the Seven Universal Laws a "Ger Toshav" (a Proselyte of the Gate).
This person is permitted to live in the land of Israel and to enter to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and to offer sacrifices to the G-d of Israel.

These are the Laws that Jewish proselyte were to obey then and today. Notice there is neither Sabbath nor food restrictions placed upon the Gentile. If a proselyte wishes they may convert fully to the Jewish faith and then they would be under the full obligation of the law of Moses

The believing Pharisee's misunderstood the new teaching that we were all one in the eyes of God. They thought that now any Gentile could now become a full Jew simply by accepting Christ and then become circumcised and accept all 613 commandments of the Mosaic law.
They did not yet understand the spiritual message of the Gentiles being added to Israel and becoming Abrahams seed.

The conclusions of the Jerusalem council is what Paul taught and wrote as instructions in all his epistles when dealing with questions on the Mosaic law.

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Ro 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Ga 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

1ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth

*** 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
*** 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
*** 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Paul was speaking of the law in its entirety not bits and pieces.

Now one would think that considering all the time that Paul spent teaching not to give heed to these things he would at least spent a little time telling us the what food laws were still applicable and the proper way to keep the Sabbath and how important these things are in the New Testament.

Are we given any instruction on cooking on the Sabbath? No
Are we given any instruction to what time the Sabbath starts and ends? No
Are we admonished for polluting the Sabbath. No
Are we given any instruction or format for Sabbath worship? No
Are we told that the Lords Supper should be held on the Sabbath? No
Are we given any instructions on preparations for the Sabbath? No
Are we told of things we can longer eat if we wish to truly be Christians? No

Are we told to use the Old Testament to find these things out for ourselves? No
2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

When I asked this person why Paul never taught these things his reply was,

"A to1st Q-
It should strongly noted that Israelites stood out like a sore thumb in regards to their Sabbath keeping. Any culture who was in contact with them for more than seven consecutive days would no doubt see this enormous change in the behavior of this entire race of people on this particular day. This day of rest was a major defining characteristic of them and I see no historical mention that they were difficult to distinguish in this regard. IOW everyone in contact with them already knew that their Lord demanded Sabbath keeping.

A to 2nd Q-
This logic behind it does not hold water. The NT does not go into such detail about the first four commands pertaining to God), as they do with the last six commands pertaining to men). They do however touch on them slightly, as well as through example. So, to put such emphasis on the fourth command as a major teaching any more than the first three would be inconsistent. Secondly, it is taught through respective example, through absence of another day instructed in it's place, and through more than one area of scripture"

So I interpret this to mean,
A. it was not being taught because the pagans already knew that they were supposed to follow the Jews,

B. It was being taught by repetitive example. No need to put anything in writing for all the home churches that Paul himself established.

I did respond to this in my reply to our point by point discussion.

"In the Old Testament, The Israelites were an unruly bunch that had to be chastised daily. Page after page of remember the Sabbath, keep it holy, Stop polluting it etc. etc But in the New Testament silence. According to the writings of Paul the New Testament gentile Christians were hardly a bunch of Choir boys and girls.

1co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

From 1Cor 11:20-34 Paul condemns them for polluting the lords supper.

Yet not one mention of polluting the Sabbath nor a teaching on proper Sabbath keeping. Every other thing under the sun they are constantly being reproached, chastised ,exhorted Warned and threatened for disobedience but apparently the one thing they got right was the Sabbath. On the Sabbath they were perfect little angels. Week after week after week. So perfect that never one time did they have to be instructed on proper Sabbath keeping.
Now Adam, I do believe in miracles, but I do not believe this one."

I never got an answer.

When the author began claiming I was just being sneaky and purposely twisting the Scripture I began posting my sources and references and asked him to do the same. The following is my post to him on this matter,

"I do not consider this a marathon nor will I abide by one-sided rules. you have asked for proof and further explanations and I have provided it. I was delayed on working on what I had planned to work on but I have started on it. I would appreciate if you would provide me with sources for your interpretation Romans 14:5. So far EVERY source and commentary I have consulted disagrees with you and age's with me
this verse is important because it also reflects on what Paul was referring to in Gal and Coll. considering that he is the same author then what he meant in one he meant in them all."



Here is his answer.

I don't own a commentary so I have nothing to share with you. Also, I don't read anyone else's ideas unless I have already studied the subject for myself and come to MY OWN CONCLUSION. Then and only then do I check around to see who might agree or disagree with me. I have no desire to debate Matthew Henry or that other guy, I thought we were in our own discussion. Do you have any original thoughts and conclusions that you came up with all on your own before you read ANYONE ELSE'S views on this matter. If not, than I'm not really discussing anything with you...am I? I would then be discussing it with someone who simply believed what he read about the Bible and not what he read from the Bible. Taught doctrine can appear very scriptural, while being totally baseless.

__________________
So rather than debating with sound biblical principals we are debating against his opinion and it is to us to provide the proof and not him.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[deu58]

For the record of those who love to label people as an obvious effort of discrediting people. SDA church is the only sabbatarian church available for me to attend.

When I lived in tennessee there were 4 different sabbatarian denominations of which I attended three from time to time. If there were another sabbatarian church whose doctrines were similar in nature to what i have found in the Bible, I would be happy to attend there.

The bottom line is that it has NOTHING to do whether we go to this church or that one. You do not hear me saying deu is this denomination or k4c is that one, the reason being is the scripture is the source for truth, period. I am here to reason from the scriptures, period. Anything more or less is an effort to take focus off the truth of the word in hopes that prejudices will flare. This is part of certain peoples twisting of facts, unscriptural study methods, and deceitful posting....anything to take the focus off the subject. This thread is way too long for all the good it has done. The fault lies in the cheap tactics by certain individuals who ignore repeated facts and make broad sweeping staements, all without having studied for themselves, only the condemned teachings of others.

razzle,
if you truly don't know much about the subject of the sunday/sabbath issue. get out of here right now and do not look at another word of mine or anyones. discount everything that you think you know about the subject as completely false. Study long and hard on what the bible says about the sabbath and about the 1st day, answer any questions you have for yourself using the scripture only. Come to your own conclusion based on NOTHING except what the bible says, in it you will find the truth.

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

I do not follow my own opinions nor yours. I follow the scripture. where ever I find a snake I step on it.
yours in Christ
deu58

 

[deu58]

k4c,
Ishmael and Isaac represent the two covenants, which Paul uses in this chapter to symbolically portray what he was trying to say.

Gal. 4:22-25 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Paul employs Isaac and Ishmael, the sons of Abraham, as representing the Old and New Covenants. Thus, clearly showing that Hagar's son, Ishmael, symbolizes the Old Covenant, and Sarah's son, Isaac, is an example of the New Covenant.

Gal. 4:28-31 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The Lord promised Abraham a son from his wife Sarah, yet she was almost 90 yrs old, so neither of them thought it was possible. Knowing that her womb was barren and that she was to old to bear children, she suggested that her husband take Hagar, her handmaid, and have a child through her. They apparently believed it was the only way to save God from an impossible promise. After time, Abraham succumbed to the idea and conceived a child through Hagar.

This is a precise example of the Old Covenant thinking that Paul is condemning, Abraham tried to solve this with his flesh, according to his ideas and justification. His plan failed, just like the Old Covenant promises failed, because he had not relied on God’s power and instruction.And, of course the Lord never recognized Ishmael as the promised seed.

Here the writer either misinterprets or simply chooses to reinterpret the Genesis account of Gods promise of a son.

Ge 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Ge 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

And how does the bible tell us Abraham reacted to this promise?

Ge 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Yet the author would have us beleive Abraham doubted.

Notice in Gen15:4 that God told Abraham his heir would proceed from his own bowels, not Sarah's womb. The only promise given to Abraham was the heir would proceed from him. Sarah is never mentioned as being the actual mother of that heir until AFTER Ishmael is born.

Ge 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Ge 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Ge 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

This is the first mention of Sarah being the actual mother of the heir of Abraham and as can be seen Ishmael was already 13 years old. But according to Adam it was AFTER this that Sarah convinced Abraham to have a child with Hagar so God would be saved from an impossible promise. Nothing could be further from the truth. The birth of Ishmael was the result of Abraham acting on the current information he had at the time which was the heir would proceed from his own bowels. Adam also states that after a time Abraham was convinced of this and then accepted Sarah's offer to let Hagar be the mother of the heir. Again this hesitation which Adam claims Abraham experienced is not even recorded in scripture. The truth is Abraham was following a normal custom of his day. We see the same custom being practiced with Jacob and Rachel.

Ge 30:3 And she said, Behold, there is my maid, Bilhah: go in to her, in order that she may bear on my knees, and I may also be built up by her.
Ge 30:4 And she gave him Bilhah her maidservant as wife, and Jacob went in to her
Ge 30:6 And Rachel said, God has done me justice, and has also heard my voice, and given me a son; therefore she called his name Dan.

This is the same custom Sarah applied in the birth of Ishmael. As far as Abraham could see this would have still been within the promise
that he had from God that the seed would be his own. It had absolutely nothing to with saving God from an impossible promise.

Adam has completely misinterpreted these events writing in his own meaning to support his own position. The reason for dwelling on this is simple. If Adams methods of exegesis are so superior then how could he be so wrong on a verse by verse chronological event that any 14 year old would see just by paying attention to what they were reading.

This is a precise example of the Old Covenant thinking that Paul is condemning, Abraham tried to solve this with his flesh, according to his ideas and justification. His plan failed, just like the Old Covenant promises failed, because he had not relied on God’s power and instruction.And, of course the Lord never recognized Ishmael as the promised seed.

Thus the above conclusion that the writer claims his inaccurate portrayal of events proves is invalid. Strange he claims also the Old Covenant
promises failed. Let me see if I can grasp this . GOD, FAILED, GOD, FAILED , GOD, FAILED. No, no I am sorry I just can not come to the same conclusion. The Old Covenant succeeded in the exact manner God planned for it to succeed

Ro 3:20 Wherefore by works of law no flesh shall be justified before him; for by law [is] knowledge of sin.

Ro 5:13 (for until law sin was in [the] world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law;

Ro 5:20 But law came in, in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace has overabounded,

The Law was also full of shadows, types and prophecy of the better covenant that was to come.

Lu 24:44 And he said to them, These [are] the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.

I do not see how the promises of the old covenant failed.

When God used His power to create a new life within Sarah, the impossible happened, and she produced a son. When God uses His power to create new life in the soul, the impossible happens again - a human being becomes spiritual and obedient.

Isaac was not "born after the flesh," but "after the Spirit." Gal. 4:29. Because man is carnal and "weak in the flesh," he has no power to attain to the righteousness of the law. He, too, must be born after the Spirit. Every attempt to obey on the Old-Covenant basis of human effort will produce only children of bondage. The law must be written into the heart by the Holy Spirit and fulfilled by "Christ in you."

This allegory of Hagar and Sarah clears up another very important point of truth. Those who are under the Old Covenant are the commandment breakers, and those under the New Covenant are the commandment keepers. It was only when Abraham disobeyed God by taking Hagar that he fulfilled the principle of the Old Covenant. When he trusted God to give him a son through Sarah, he was being obedient to God's will, and properly represents the New-Covenant Christians. Yet we often see modern interpretations get these facts confused. The truth is exactly the opposite. The law is not really kept until it is written on the heart of the transformed believer. Then it becomes the mark of identification - the love symbol - for those who are born of the Spirit. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments.", John 14:15. John wrote, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.", 1John 5:3.

The context of this chapter does not relieve man of the Lord's command of Sabbath keeping. Quite the contrary, it enforces it. It does however dismiss any manner of mans choosing to keep it, any way he sees fit. It also clearly informs us that the keeping of the Sabbath is to be performed out of faith and not obligation.

Your ideas on keeping the commands according to your views or those that are taught by men, are expressly forbidden by this chapters teaching. And, it has strengthened my position while totally making void yours.
_________

The above is a collection of half truths again drawn from his incorrect interpretation of Abraham in Genesis, The main point being Abraham
was disobedient in fathering Ishmael.

Ge 17:20 And for Ishmael I have heard thee: behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will very greatly multiply him; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation

God would not have blessed Ishmael if he was the product of sin and disobedience.

Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

These laws are the very same laws that applied to every gentile of that day. For scripture is clear Abraham was not under the Mosaic law

De 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The concept that we are the commandment keepers is without merit for if we were truly commandment keepers we would as Christians be without sin. This is not Scriptural.

1jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
1jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 2:2 makes it clear that he is talking about the sins of Christians and then the sins of the world also.

If we are perfect commandment keepers why would our lord teach us to include in our prayers,
Lu 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

The author tries to force his interpretation upon Galatians twisting its meaning by twisting another section of scripture {Genesis} to fit the claims and demands he tries to make appear relevant. Personally I would think if you misinterpreted one part of scripture then tried to use that misinterpretation to prove another part of scripture you would have two sections of misinterpreted scripture.

As I stated in the historical article I posted previous to this one, The Jews of Judaism never taught that a Gentile was required to perform the requirements of the 613 commands of the Mosaic law. So what kind of Jew was Paul dealing with here?

Ga 1:6 I wonder that ye thus quickly change, from him that called you in Christ's grace, to a different gospel,
Ga 1:7 which is not another [one]; but there are some that trouble you, and desire to pervert the glad tidings of the Christ

The answer is right there.

Ac 15:5 And some of those who were of the sect of the Pharisees, who believed, rose up from among [them], saying that they ought to circumcise them and enjoin them to keep the law of Moses.

Not all of these Pharisee's accepted the decision of the Jerusalem council and it is these who were bringing another Gospel, Christ risen
mixed with obedience to the law of Moses. These were Christian Jews who demanded that the gentiles be circumcised and keep the law.

Pauls intentions in Galatians are clear. He was separating the Gospel of Christ from the law of Moses. They are oil and water. They do not mix.
There is no such thing as a free bondman.

2co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Just like some today they could not grasp the meaning of this and still try to mix the old with new. What does Jesus tell the New Testament Believer.

Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Notice Jesus makes a separation between the two commandments? As Jesus bought us from the Law of Moses by keeping those Commandments showing his love for the father we are now to show him our love by keeping his commandments.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[k4c]

k4c I hope you don't mind me posting this here, you pm box was full. If it is a problem, please accept my appology, I don't mean to offend.


A couple of thoughts for you on this issue. One thought is that in the ten commandments, in which this command is reinforced with the other commands, which commands should we not take literally? Though shall not murder, commit adultry, honor your father and mother? They are all to be taken literally. We can apply an inward understanding to each in fact, my children and I resently had a lesson about the inward lessons of being obedient, but this in no way means that I should only focus on the inward part of obeying.

Hello razzelflabben and blessings to you in Christ,

God tells us the law is spiritual, Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Which means under the new covenant God will be looking at and cleaning the heart. We can see this in how Jesus brings the law inward when He tells us that if we lust in our heart we have committed adultery already or if we hate our brother we have committed murder. The reason for this is because hate is the root cause of murder.

Under the new covenant, God will root out the cause of sin in our lives, if we let Him. He will clean the inside of the cup first then the outside will take care of itself. Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

This is what separates the religious person from the true believer as we can see from the Pharisees. Matthew 23:27-28 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

So, the law is spiritual to be applied inwardly to the heart. Now lets take this thought over to the Sabbath. God tells us that the Sabbath is a shadow. Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

A shadow is something that is being cast because of something else or is caused by something else. So if the law is spiritual then the Sabbath must also be spiritual, to be applied inwardly. The literal seventh day rest is a picture or a shadow of the inward rest brought by Christ. Now what happens when the inward is clean regarding the Sabbath? The outward will also be made clean or right in other words, we will understand the true meaning of the Sabbath and be led by the Spirit in regard to what day we keep according to God's word as an expression of love, not of regulations of do's and don'ts where we fall into complaining and back stabbing but rather out of love from a pure heart. 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

Second thought, since when does work only occur when I punch in on the time clock? Ask any mother how many hours a day she works. In fact, when Jesus taught the Pharisees about the sabbath He did not tell them that they were not understanding the heart of the law by taking it literally but rather that the litteral could not become legalistic.
I think that you are right in the inward idea of sabbath, and I think that way to many people have no concept of what you are saying. In fact, I didn't even think of it in that way until I read your post. It makes total sense and is totally in line with the totality of scripture. But, we must also we careful to understand that the outward and the inward are both scriptural, both Godly, and both commands. There are many people in this world who work 7 days a week and it is very oppressive. The majority of the old law, was set up to deal with the physical needs of the people. One very easy example of this is the idea of eating pork. In the early biblical accounts, cooking methods were not good. There is a worm that lives in pork that if not cooked well, can make you sick or die. This is why you are never asked in a restuarant if you want your pork rare. By the time that we were released from this law, cooking methods were much better than earilier and thus the health issue was not as great. The same is true for the sabbath. It is healthy for man to have a time of rest. My husband and I both work 12-14 hour days 7 days a week. 365 days a year no vacation, no sick days, etc. Christmas day, I simply refused to work. My husband would have lost his job so he worked but I refused. I still cooked and picked up and cared for my children but for the first time in many years, I felt like I could deal with the day, that I had a purpose. I rested, I had a sabbath and that literal time of rest allowed me a new oppertunity to focus on God and the inward rest in Christ. Literal rest is vital to the physical, mental and spirtiual life. If it were not so, Jesus would have told the pharisees so. Instead, what he said was that we cannot be legalistic in our observance of the sabbath.

(By the way, I have yet to meet a pastor that only works one day a week the average for those I know are 6-7 even for those that are part time, it usually runs between 4-7 and having married a pk and an mk and having gone through seminary with my husband and having works along side him in a few churches, I know quite a few pasors personally)

 

[razzelflabben]

Some of the longer posts I will have to spend more time on than I have at the current moment. However, I feel it necessary to deal with a couple of issues right now.

One, when I said that I had not done an extensive study on the subject of the sabbath, I did not say that I had not studied the subject. I have studied enough to know that some of the things being said in this thread go against the totality of scrpture and thus can only be false teaching. Scripture does not contridict itself! If you all want me to leave the thread I will but I would think that that would hinder the understanding of the subject since God has brought me into it.

Secondly, I asked someone to show me one scripture in which God used anything but a day to measure the sabbath. No one has produced that scripture. This then leads us to the conclusion that the day of the week that we celebrate the sabbath was desided after the command to honor the sabbath and thus it is a mere traditional date not a specific command of God. You see, even in Gen. God said 6 days I worked, then I rested. He does not say that I worked a week and rested on the last day of the week. The measure of a week occured after the sabbath was established. This being true, the only other arguement you have left is that God divinely instructed the calendar be broken into weeks. I have seen no evidence that God ever said, divide your calendar into weeks and start the week here. If you have evidence please do share. In most if not all the scriptures, time is recorded as days, years, months, eternal. I have not recently studied this subject but I do not recall any division of time in terms of weeks. The idea of a week came about as an extention of the sabbath I would guess but as a command of God, you will have to prove that one.

My husband is not pastoring right now though his heart is still open to God's call to a church.

 

[deu58]

Some of the longer posts I will have to spend more time on than I have at the current moment. However, I feel it necessary to deal with a couple of issues right now.

One, when I said that I had not done an extensive study on the subject of the sabbath, I did not say that I had not studied the subject. I have studied enough to know that some of the things being said in this thread go against the totality of scrpture and thus can only be false teaching. Scripture does not contridict itself! If you all want me to leave the thread I will but I would think that that would hinder the understanding of the subject since God has brought me into it.

Secondly, I asked someone to show me one scripture in which God used anything but a day to measure the sabbath. No one has produced that scripture. This then leads us to the conclusion that the day of the week that we celebrate the sabbath was desided after the command to honor the sabbath and thus it is a mere traditional date not a specific command of God. You see, even in Gen. God said 6 days I worked, then I rested. He does not say that I worked a week and rested on the last day of the week. The measure of a week occured after the sabbath was established. This being true, the only other arguement you have left is that God divinely instructed the calendar be broken into weeks. I have seen no evidence that God ever said, divide your calendar into weeks and start the week here. If you have evidence please do share. In most if not all the scriptures, time is recorded as days, years, months, eternal. I have not recently studied this subject but I do not recall any division of time in terms of weeks. The idea of a week came about as an extention of the sabbath I would guess but as a command of God, you will have to prove that one.

My husband is not pastoring right now though his heart is still open to God's call to a church.

Hello razz

Don't you dare let anybody run you off this thread! You have just as much right here as anybody else. So maybe you do not Know everything about the Sabbath. so what.

There are probably other things you know more than we do.

1co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Thats just one of adams tricks. go to when he first started posting and you will see how many people he has bullied.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[trucker]

Er, trucker, "sabat" and "shabbath" are two translitterations of the same Hebrew word. It's spelled Sheen-Beyth-Tau. In Hebrew, a Sheen can also be pronounced like an "S" (and it is translitterated as a Sigma in Greek). Additionally, the semitic letters Beyth (B), Dolath (D), Kof (K), Pe (P), and Tau (T) have asperated (or spirantalized) forms, which sound like V DH KH F and TH respectively.

Hence: Sheen-Beyth-Tau can be pronounced:

Shabat, Shavat, Shavath, Shabath, Sabat, Savat, Savath, or Sabath depending on diatric marks alone (not counting changes in vowels).

In the Greek, the word is "sabtha" which comes from the Aramaic form of shabath: "shavtha" (note how the Beyth is asperated, B -> V).

Shlomo,

Thadman
So if I read you correctly, you are saying that the Gen word sabat and the Exodus word shabath are in fact the same exact word in the Hebrew manuscripts. I will look again and ask somewhere else, then get back. thanks. trucker
(Peace)

 

[trucker]

I appologize if I sound testy in this post, I have been trying to read every post before adding my two cents worth and quite frankly, I don't hear a whole lot of substance which I guess is what I come to the forums for. An actual Biblical discussion rather than theology and religious teaching.

First off, why are we being so legalistic? If we want to follow the legalistic aproach to scripture, then we must follow all the law. That is a hard row to hoe and since God freed us from the law, I dare say it would be a fruitless road to follow as far as our walk with God is concerned. Secondly, if you are going down the legalistic road, then why do we go to church on the "Sabbath" if you go to church, you are asking the pastor to work on the sabbath which is direct violation of the fourth? commandment. And believe me, when my husband was pastoring, it was definately work and not only for him but for the whole family as well as others working in the church. What kind of law would ask the people to follow one law and the leaders to follow another? The sabbath is a concept, idea, command to work 6 days and rest the 7th. Which scripture says that God started His creation on Sun. or MOn. If the pastor works 6 days and his work days start on Mon then I would expect that on Sun. he would rest! If his work day starts on Sun. then I would expect him to rest on Sat. But from most of the pastors I know, any day off is a rare thing and Sat. is no more rest than Sun. To keep the sabbath holy means to remew your body and soul, not just your soul. It is a time to walk away from the pressures and struggles and relax. Our current society has absolutely no concept of this and threads like this one encourage this type of abuse. To be healthy, (which is the bulk of the old law), one needs to rest from work. If my job does not allow that rest, there is a problem with that job that should appall every christian out there. Case in point, how many christians recieve the daily paper? The carriers of the paper work 7 days a week 365 days a year to get that paper to you. By getting the paper 7 days a week, you are demanding that the carriers break the sabbath commands. Want to get legalistic, why do "you" encourage others to sin. Most people who work in the resturant business do get one or two days off a week but seldom on Sat. or Sun. so that they can attend church and let us not forget about the police and nurses that work weekends too. If we are going to have a legalistic discussion then let us take it to it's completion by examining our own behaviors and what we can do to allow everyone the right to a sabbath.

By the way, the teaching in Matt. 12 about the sabbath, is a teaching against this legalistic approach to the sabbath.

razzelflabben,

bravo, bravo!!!!

trucker

 

[GodsWatchman]

God blessed and sanctified "THE" seventh day for man, on the very day that he established it. Do you want the sabbath blessing he has left there for you? How can you get it by treating the first day as you would the sabbath? Do you think that the Lord slides it around as to each persons own habits? Do you think you have the power transfer his blessing to the day which happens to be the most convenient?

Did Cain's convienent offering please God?

When the leper was told to wash in a specific river, do you think he would have been cleansed if he had disobeyed and washed whereever was most convenient?

When Joshua was told to march around the city with the very specific instructions, was he given credit for simply the intent or did he actually have to perform it as was instructed?

There are hundreds of examples throughout the scriptures where people did things their own way and failed. Why? If you have faith in his word and his instruction instead of your own more convenient methods, God will give you what has been promised.

It may be more convenient to buy your groceries at the corner hardware store, but tell that to the guy behind the counter when you ask him why he doesn't carry carrots. There is no honoring God in disobeying his clear instructions, no matter your intent or how inconvenient it it to heed his instructions.

Do people feel they are honoring God when they assasinate abortion doctors? Isn't murder a sin? Do you really feel that their intent overrides their blatant disobedience?

Intent or convenience holds absolutely no candle to obedience to God's specific instruction, period.

Well - this thread has definitly grown its length out. Adam - from the posts I've read of yours ..I'm very supprized at SDA Sabbath 'block'. I hope you read this and the contents of this post.

http://www.americaslastdays.com/sabbath.htm

May God Bless you,
GodsWatchman

 

[trucker]

k4c,
The verse in Col. does not say "These are only a shadow of what was coming". The word "was" implies past tense and is not found in the original Greek. The word "are" is present tense and the word "come" implies the future or present tense. Considering that this was written nearly 30 yrs following Christ death yet, the manuscript records it as a present shadow of something which is yet to come...speaks enormously. The Sabbath was given as a day of rest memoralizing the creation of God and the rest that He experienced after His creative works. The heavens and earth shall be created again, it stands as a shadow of what is to come! The manuscript impressions are accurate without such a fictitious interpretation thereof. Also your translation says includes the words "only" and "reality". Please show me where in the original Greek where they found these words. They are pure fiction and no such terms appear. This makes your passage, not a translation at all, but a interpretation, and a poor one at that.

Also Rom. 14 has been discussed and the only way one can apply it has having any bearing on the seventh day sabbath is if it specifically metioned it, which it doesn't. Or, if the seventh day sabbath fits the same criteria as the subject which he was speaking of, which again it does not.

Adam,
please where did you get the words "only" and "reality" in your reply to k4c post. thanks

 

[Symes]

GodsWatchman

I read through the link you have posted and I am surprised that anyone could take it seriously. The great mistake he makes is that he thinks the new covenant began in the New Testament times. At least that is how I am reading it. In terms of time the new covenant was the first covenant. It was the everlasting covenant that was given to Abraham. We cannot have some being saved under one covenant and then some under another covenant. We are all saved through the spilt blood of Jesus Christ. Before His death all the scarifices pointed forward to it. We look back as they looked forward. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation. You cannot change the birthday of the world no matter what and how much spin you put on it.

 

[k4c]

Hey kc

Well, I did not mean for you to jump on a plane right this minute although that would make the wife happy. But lets not dismiss the Idea completly. Maybe there is someone you can send in your place but I agree lets not do this instantly lets take some time. Iwant to keep in touch. There is a real need here. of course there is a real need everywhere. May God bless your Honduras work. What kind of work do you do?

yours in Christ
deu58

Hello again brother deu58,

Sorry for the delay in answering this post, I must have missed it. You are right to say there is a huge need for the spiritual understanding of God's word for this is where God is able to make us grow.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I believe much of God's church today are being led astray in the fact that we are not understanding John 4:23-24. This verse has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit and such. But it has to do with learning how God's word applies to us inwardly so that we can't make the corrections in our lives.

Eph.5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it (us) with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it (us) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This is all inward in how God desires to cleans the inward temple so that we will be without spot or blemish. He can't do this if we don't understand Him.

As far as my job goes, I'm a police detective, adult major crimes division. I have about seventeen years on the job and I'm in the process of buying back military time which will leave me with about four months left to retire. Then who knows where the Lord will lead.

As far as me going to you to start something, I think the Lord already has His man there, You...

Blessings to you and the Mrs.,
John

 

[Symes]

John 4:23,24
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Eph:5:26,27
"to make her holy, cleansing[2] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."

This Church or group will have certain characteristics, they can be found in the Bible. Although they have been presented here before it is worth looking at them again to see what they are.

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

It is not too hard to work out what is meant by "which keep the commandments of God"

God made ten commandments that were to never change.

But what is the "testimony of Jesus Christ."?

Again it is best to let the Bible tell us what it is.

Revelation 19:10
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"

So we see that God's end time people/Church will have prophecy as one of their main characteristics. It does not mean there are prophets everywhere amongst them but it also means they have the gift of understanding prophecy.

Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

So we have more than once where God's people keep the commandments.

This is not nine or eight or even seven but all ten.