Understanding praying to saints

[mont974x4]

Necromancy

of course, and it was denied as expected.

The chart is an over-simplification and ignores essential Scriptures. These have been posted over and over in the many threads that discuss this issue, so I won't waste my time.

I will say, if anyone truly wants to convince us that the practice is not unbiblical (At best ) and a clear sin (at worst) you're going to have to think outside the normal playbook. Obviously you have not sufficiently answered our objections with the usual ploys and excuses.

There is no biblical example of a live human talking to a dead human that is presented as something good.

Prayer is an act of worship and is used for communicating concerns, praise, and intercessions directly to God. In fact, when taught to pray, Jesus tells the apostles to pray to the Father...not to anyone else.

The practice was created as an attempt to make the pagan practice of polytheism into something holy.

 

[MrPolo]

There is no biblical example of a live human talking to a dead human that is presented as something good.

You are mistaken.

Acts 9:36-37, 40-42 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha...she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room....Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. THen calling the saints and widows he presented her alive. And it became known through all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord.​

Looks like Peter was a necromancer, too.

 

[prodromos]

There is no biblical example of a live human talking to a dead human that is presented as something good.

What was bad about Christ talking to Moses on Mt Tabor?

 

[Thekla]

Invoking the intercession of dead saints...
=
Necromancy

Christ is Life; those who are with Him are alive, no matter their physical condition. Truly, Christ has triumphed over death, once and for all time.

! Glory be to Jesus Christ +

 

[Thekla]

Prayer is an act of worship and is used for communicating concerns, praise, and intercessions directly to God. In fact, when taught to pray, Jesus tells the apostles to pray to the Father...not to anyone else.

This is not consistent with the NT use of the terms translated as "pray".

 

[mont974x4]

What was bad about Christ talking to Moses on Mt Tabor?

Christ is God. It does not fit the context of a live human talking to a dead humn. Come on, that is a typical argument in these threads.

 

[mont974x4]

This is not consistent with the NT use of the terms translated as "pray".

Actually it is, it just isn't consistent with how some men have decided to define and apply the term.

 

[Thekla]

Actually it is, it just isn't consistent with how some men have decided to define and apply the term.

The narrowing of the terms is more recent. To ask is to ask. To entreat is to entreat. To praise is to praise. It is the nature of the recipient which changes.

A search of the NT terms in Greek will help to demonstrate the terms and their application.

 

[Thekla]

Christ is God. It does not fit the context of a live human talking to a dead humn. Come on, that is a typical argument in these threads.

The rich man, per Christ, asks (entreats) Abraham that Lazarus may go and warn the rich man's brothers. Abraham demurs, not because it is not possible, but because those who do not receive even the Law and the Prophets will not hear from one who arises/appears from the dead (the word used can refer to resurrection or to appear).

If this (the entreaty of the dead rich man made to the dead Abraham, the ability of those physically dead to convert the living) were not possible, then why would Christ:
a. use this account
b. not correct misapprehensions

 

[GailMc]

Hello Mont974x4! You state this:

There is no biblical example of a live human talking to a dead human that is presented as something good. quote] This is simply not so.

Have you not heard this: "Now it came to pass about eight days after these words, that he took Peter, James and John and went up the mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the appearance of his countenance was changed, and his raiment became a radiant white. And behold, two men were talking with him. And these were Moses and Elias, who, appearing in glory, spoke of his death, which he was about to fulfill in Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep. But when they were fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men who were standing with him. And it came to pass as they were parting from him, that Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is good for us to be here. And let us set up three tents, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias,' not knowing what he said. But as he was speaking thus, there came a cloud and overshadowed them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying 'This is my beloved Son; hear him.' And after the voice had passed, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silence and told no one at that time any of these things that they had seen." From the Gospel of St. Luke, Chapter 9, verses 28 to 36.

In this example from the Gospel of Saint Luke, you will find Jesus praying and being changed by his prayer in appearance and there are three witnesses to this, Peter, James and John. If this were not enough then there appears two persons, Moses and Elias, both long dead at that time but very much alive in glory and seen in answer to Jesus' prayer and not only seen but HEARD to be CONVERSING with Jesus! Now as for you complaint that there is no live human being talking to a dead person, ummmmm Jesus was very much alive at that time and so were Peter, James and John! Moses and Elias had died a long time before this happened yet there they were in glory with Jesus on a Mountain and seen by three very much alive persons who were stunned by God's reply to their seeming very human response, as in setting up tents to worship on the ground of where a miracle of stunning proportions had just occurred --- that is the living seeing the dead and being able to converse with them in response to prayer! Oh my!

It would be reeeeeeallly a good thing if you could respond to His voice and BELIEVE as the Apostles did on that Mountain on that day.

Peace and all good,

Gail

 

[mont974x4]

The narrowing of the terms is more recent. To ask is to ask. To entreat is to entreat. To praise is to praise. It is the nature of the recipient which changes.

A search of the NT terms in Greek will help to demonstrate the terms and their application.

One last post. prayer is an act of worship. An in-depth word study proves this out.

 

[seashale76]

One last post. prayer is an act of worship. An in-depth word study proves this out.

There's no point in posting new things when the same people keep not reading the old things that were posted a while back on this very board. So, I'll just repost an older post of mine on this exact same topic.

Here goes:

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as prayer. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

 

[Thekla]

One last post. prayer is an act of worship. An in-depth word study proves this out.

As Seashale pointed out, there are numerous NT Greek words that can be translated as "pray"; on of them is erwtaw which is used to describe Lazarus's request to Abraham (Luke 16:27).

 

[narnia59]

How do you know if they are praying for you or not?

You don't.

Honestly they cannot hear you, but there are many other spirits who will listen and come to deceive.

So, if Samuel couldn't hear those on earth, how was Saul able to consult him in the first place? Saul violated the command to consult the dead in an attempt to gain knowledge of the future (actual necromancy), but the fact that Samuel did indeed return from the grave seems to prove they can indeed hear us.

And if they are not aware of what is going on, why did Rachel weap for her children?

By the way, this paragraph from the Catholic catechism should address your concerns that we do indeed understand that necromancy is to be avoided.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

 

[prodromos]

Christ is God.

He is also man, and this was witnessed by Peter, James and John.

It does not fit the context of a live human talking to a dead humn. Come on, that is a typical argument in these threads.

An argument that has not been challenged.

John

 

[MrPolo]

One last post. prayer is an act of worship. An in-depth word study proves this out.

Ok, let's go through the Bible and see how the word pray is used. Begin in Genesis, a King James translation:

Genesis 24:45 And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down unto the well, and drew water: and I said unto her, Let me drink, I pray thee.​

The word translated pray there, is נא. It is spoken by Abraham's servant to Rebekah. The word is properly translated "pray", and is used numerous times throughout the Septuagint to refer to petitioning another person. It does not necessitate worship as you have incorrectly claimed.

 

[simonthezealot]

oremus Bible Browser

Hebrews 4:16,

16Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Timothy 2:5,

5For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,

Hebrews 7:25,

25Consequently he is able for all time to save* those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:26-27


26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes* with sighs too deep for words. 27And God,* who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit* intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[simonthezealot]

~The Bible no where mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them.

~The Bible no where describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth.

 

[Thekla]

~The Bible no where mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them.

~The Bible no where describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth.

See the account of Lazarus and the rich man.
See also the book of Revelation.

 

[MrPolo]

~The Bible no where mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them.

~The Bible no where describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth.

The Psalmist asks the angels to join him in prayer (Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21), the Israelites acquire the successful intercession of an angel (Zec 1:11-16), and the elders and angel in heaven present the ascended prayers of the saints on earth to God (Rev 5:8, 8:4, cf. Acts 10:4). Paul also sets the explicit example of asking other members of the Body of Christ to pray for him (Rm 15:30, 1 Thes 5:25, et al). There are some people, however, who wish to add to Scripture a qualification to exclude those members of the Body of Christ who are closest to God, whose prayers are most powerful. Scripture makes no such qualification, but the opposite as the examples herein show.

Link to all Scripture in this post.