Understanding praying to saints

[Livindesert]

They are in Sheol awaiting Judgement.

 

[Thekla]

did they die? yes

So Paul's teaching was incorrect ...

 

[Dorothea]

They are in Sheol awaiting Judgement.

Those that were in Shoel were released by Christ when he descended into Hades and broke the gates there, and the righteous were risen to heaven when Christ Resurrected.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It seems, imo, to center on the understanding of "dead"; a difference in understanding of the efficacy of Christ's work and what is His body.

I agree that this is probably the crux of the matter.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hey there Simonthezealot! You state this: among a few other things......I looked it up in my Bible and sure enough that's what it says! But the passage is not saying that the throne of grace isn't surrounded by angels and saints........see the Book of Revelation for this Scriptural proof! Ummmm...........

"Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." I few words different than the one you use, but I'll try to explain.....Let's see, God is asking us to draw near to His throne, where He is eternally.......that would be in Heaven and He is King there, and Mary is Queen! and the allusion to this fact is in one of the titles we use for her mentioned in the above Scripture, Mary, "with confidence." Now who else could I pray with but God's own Mother if I feel my prayers might not be quite what they need to be as I approach that throne with CONFIDENCE! My CONFIDENCE IS IN HER! So, "WITH CONFIDENCE" I give my words to Him through her. Does that make sense? Hope so. I'll go on, taking liberites here.......so fearing God as I should, I hope to obtain MERCY from that Throne where God is seated judging me as I approach through prayer.... Ummmmm should I fear God? He says I should! I am just a sinner and since there is help needed for me, at least in approaching His throne of Mercy, perhaps asking a few of His Saints to help me ask......oooooops......there I've gone and done it now...admitted I'm just a sinner and need lots and lots of help in obtaining the goal of my approach through prayer, the intercession of His Saints............so I think I'll ask with CONFIDENCE as the Scripture says, but my cnfidence is Mary's graces and I don't even mind asking through the intercession of a few more of His Holy folks, errrr Saints that is.............After all they are there as Scripture says surrounding His throne (please see the Book of Revelations for this proof) Now I don't know how you feel about God, but for me Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom! Does this make any sense? Maybe I could talk myself out of fearing Him, but that sounds reeeeeeally stupid to this gal, as in a dull conscience. oops I think I got off track and dinner's ready. Gotta go!

May God bless you and your household with love for all His Holy ones and may the peace of Christ remain with you.

Peace and all good,

Gail

P.S. I really don't understand why some folks throw away the help of His Holy Ones. They are there after all in Heaven.....the ultimate goal of our salvation........if I don't believe they're there, will it be long before I despair of much of Christianity in other regards? It's a package deal! Giving up praying to the Saints as well as God seems like I'd be throwing away a great big gift God gave me - the Church in Heaven!

I would like to respond to your P.S. primarily. However, relative to the body of your post I believe the writer of Hebrews makes it explicitly clear that believers have complete confidence to boldly approach the throne of God because we have a great high priest at His right hand who every lives to make intercession for us. My confidence is in Him and in no other nor is there any need for another.

To make an analogy, crutches are needed for certain disabled people. For those who are healthy and fit there is no need for crutches. We who have been made spiritually healthy and fit have no need for crutches. That is the point in Hebrews. Because of Jesus Christ we no longer have a need for mortal priests and intercessors or anything related to the Old Covenant which Christ has completely fulfilled. Jesus Christ is All and All. What more do we want or need beside Him?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have, but even if I haven't here's where we stand. Your position holds that it is ok to ask other members of the Body of Christ for intercession unless that member is fully united with God. I, and others believe it is not only proper to ask any member of the Body of Christ for intercession (Paul did not qualify his example after all...), but it is spiritually wise to ask for the prayers of the righteous whose prayers we are told in Scripture are especially powerful. So that's it. And we move on....

There are several weaknesses to your position as follow:

1. How do you know for a fact that any disembodied person is "fully united with God"? God alone is Judge and I would be the last person to prejudge others one way or the other. I typically assume that those making a profession of faith in Jesus Christ are Christians. However, it would be the height of presumption on my part to believe that I can know without the slightest doubt that another person is in heaven. We can believe with great confidence that some such as Paul and Peter and Mary are in heaven, but others such as Christopher who once were stated to be in heaven have now been deposed as having never even existed.
2. How do you know that any person "fully united with God" is able and willing to intercede for anyone here on earth?
3. Which prayer of thousands being raised to a particular person "fully united with God" is actually heard, much less understood by that individual? Unless the possess the attribute of omnipresence it is absurd to thing they can hear more than one prayer offered by one person in one place at a time.

I would rather hedge my bets, if needed, by asking a person that I actually know and trust to pray for me. In case you are curious, that person is none other than Jesus Christ Himself, Who is willing and ablle, omniscient, and omnipresent.

 

[Livindesert]

Those that were in Shoel were released by Christ when he descended into Hades and broke the gates there, and the righteous were risen to heaven when Christ Resurrected.

The Bible dose not say it so they are still their in my book.