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Understanding key differences: Christian conservatism vs. Christian nationalism

RDKirk

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It's too late, they already know, because Disney has been an anti-Christian subversive organization for some time. You have to go back to 1956, The zenith of the American Dream, the year it began to fade. Back in those days Italians weren't considered entirely “white” people. Besides, they were Roman Catholics, not really Christians and subversive of real true American values. Us high school boys were warned off ethnic Catholic girls, swarthy evil succubi charged with stealing our souls for the Pope. Of course we didn’t actually know any Catholic girls, they mostly went to their own schools and our parents would never socialize with theirs, but they warned us anyway. Then, in 1956 Disney put a tv show called The Mickey Mouse Club on the air. One of the stars of the show was a young Italian American named Annette Funicello. She was a revelation. All across the country millions of teenage boys took one look at Annette and we knew at once that we had been lied to about Catholic girls. And if we had been lied to about that, what else were we being lied to about? Plenty, as it turns out. About Black people and other minorities, about being drafted to fight a war no one could win, about many, many other things. We’re still being lied to, but perhaps some of us know better now.

Try to imagine yourself as a white Protestant 16 year old boy back in the ‘50s. This is Annette. You met her at a party you weren’t really supposed to go to. She likes you and hopes you will ask her to the Junior Prom. Your parents and your Pastor say no, don’t do it, it’s a trap.

But it’s your call. Good luck, kid.

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Even black kids. Maybe she was a young Lena Horne.
 
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A2SG

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Not "just like."
In both instances, people where lied to and sent somewhere else, without preparations being made and without informing the other community they were coming, and both were intended as a political stunt. Both backfired, since both stunts were public relations nightmares, and didn't prove the point the southern states intended. In both cases, the northern states accepted the new arrivals, and did what they could for them until better arrangements could be made.

If there is a significant difference between the two, other than one group being black and the other being immigrants, feel free to explain.

In truth, the federal government "catch and release" policy should have come with federal action to disperse the illegal immigrants to other areas of the country. It is certainly patently unfair to force the border states to handle the social repercussion of federal policy.
I agree. Though it would certainly be a good idea to let those other areas of the country know they're coming. That's the truly despicable part of this stunt, in both instances: the deception.

-- A2SG, if you're gonna use disadvantage people as political pawns, maybe don't be so obvious and blatant about it....
 
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RDKirk

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In both instances, people where lied to and sent somewhere else, without preparations being made and without informing the other community they were coming, and both were intended as a political stunt. Both backfired, since both stunts were public relations nightmares, and didn't prove the point the southern states intended. In both cases, the northern states accepted the new arrivals, and did what they could for them until better arrangements could be made.
I don't see how it backfired...they did get rid of at least a few of the illegal immigrants.
If there is a significant difference between the two, other than one group being black and the other being immigrants, feel free to explain.
One group were citizens, the other group were illegal immigrants...not just "immigrants." I'm not forgetting the "illegal" part.
I agree. Though it would certainly be a good idea to let those other areas of the country know they're coming. That's the truly despicable part of this stunt, in both instances: the deception.

-- A2SG, if you're gonna use disadvantage people as political pawns, maybe don't be so obvious and blatant about it....
Well, obviously if they'd pre-announced it, the receiving states would have set up roadblocks.

And it's not as though politicians don't using disadvantaged people as political pawns all the time. The "receiving states" were doing that when they declared themselves sanctuaries for illegal immigrants...and we shouldn't forget that, either. They had given them an invitation.
 
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A2SG

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I don't see how it backfired...they did get rid of at least a few of the illegal immigrants.
But it wasn't exactly the "owning the libs" victory they may have thought it would be.

One group were citizens, the other group were illegal immigrants...not just "immigrants." I'm not forgetting the "illegal" part.
Yeah, the disadvantaged groups who were lied to and manipulated were different, but the tactics employed were the same.

Well, obviously if they'd pre-announced it, the receiving states would have set up roadblocks.
Or they could have made arrangements to receive them. Clearly, the residents of Martha's Vineyard did what they could, given the limited resources at their disposal, and better arrangements were made. Then again, if DeSantis and company had been honest and forthright from the start....well, let's not get into fantasy scenarios.

And it's not as though politicians don't using disadvantaged people as political pawns all the time. The "receiving states" were doing that when they declared themselves sanctuaries for illegal immigrants...and we shouldn't forget that, either. They had given them an invitation.
Sure. But some are more blatantly dishonest about it than others.

-- A2SG, and the receiving state, in this case, did provide sanctuary when they knew about the situation, let's not forget.....
 
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RDKirk

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But it wasn't exactly the "owning the libs" victory they may have thought it would be.


Yeah, the disadvantaged groups who were lied to and manipulated were different, but the tactics employed were the same.
The other difference is that the southerners had caused the original problem themselves...it was a home-grown issue.
Or they could have made arrangements to receive them. Clearly, the residents of Martha's Vineyard did what they could, given the limited resources at their disposal, and better arrangements were made. Then again, if DeSantis and company had been honest and forthright from the start....well, let's not get into fantasy scenarios.
Yes, you have gotten into a fantasy scenario, if you think the "sanctuary cities" would have made arrangements for them before actually having them on their doorstep. NIMBY is typical for that kind of liberal.
Sure. But some are more blatantly dishonest about it than others.
In this case, it's debatable whether it's more or less dishonest to lie to them saying, "Come on in, you're welcomed here," or to tell them, "Those folk said you're welcomed there, so we're taking you there." Wait. The latter wasn't a lie at all.
-- A2SG, and the receiving state, in this case, did provide sanctuary when they knew about the situation, let's not forget.....
They should have. They had said that they would.
 
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A2SG

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The other difference is that the southerners had caused the original problem themselves...it was a home-grown issue.
Okay, I'll grant you that.

Yes, you have gotten into a fantasy scenario, if you think the "sanctuary cities" would have made arrangements for them before actually having them on their doorstep. NIMBY is typical for that kind of liberal.
Well, the fact remains, Massachusetts DID make arrangements for them, even if they weren't made aware of the need to beforehand. So, not exactly a NIMBY situation. The problem was Martha's Vineyard, being primarily seasonal and mostly a vacation/tourist economy, wasn't set up for that kind of thing. Especially in September, when the season is over. I'm not sure if DeSantis planned the timing of it that way, but it wouldn't really surprise me if he had.

In this case, it's debatable whether it's more or less dishonest to lie to them saying, "Come on in, you're welcomed here," or to tell them, "Those folk said you're welcomed there, so we're taking you there." Wait. The latter wasn't a lie at all.
Yeah, it was. There's no getting around that. DeSantis and company lied, pure and simple.

Now, had immigrants shown up in Massachusetts on their own, without having been falsely promised they were expected and arrangements had already been made, I've no doubt we would have simply made arrangements same as was done in this case, and nothing more would have been said. Massachusetts isn't exactly unfamiliar with immigrants, ya know.

They should have. They had said that they would.
And Massachusetts DID welcome them.

Just like we did the Reverse Freedom Riders back in the 60s.

-- A2SG, we may not be perfect here, but by and large, we try to do the right thing most of the time....
 
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RDKirk

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Okay, I'll grant you that.


Well, the fact remains, Massachusetts DID make arrangements for them, even if they weren't made aware of the need to beforehand. So, not exactly a NIMBY situation. The problem was Martha's Vineyard, being primarily seasonal and mostly a vacation/tourist economy, wasn't set up for that kind of thing. Especially in September, when the season is over. I'm not sure if DeSantis planned the timing of it that way, but it wouldn't really surprise me if he had.


Yeah, it was. There's no getting around that. DeSantis and company lied, pure and simple.

Now, had immigrants shown up in Massachusetts on their own, without having been falsely promised they were expected and arrangements had already been made, I've no doubt we would have simply made arrangements same as was done in this case, and nothing more would have been said. Massachusetts isn't exactly unfamiliar with immigrants, ya know.


And Massachusetts DID welcome them.

Just like we did the Reverse Freedom Riders back in the 60s.

-- A2SG, we may not be perfect here, but by and large, we try to do the right thing most of the time....
I would point out that Mass didn't get that many of them, and Chicago and NYC haven't done nearly as well.
 
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A2SG

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I would point out that Mass didn't get that many of them, and Chicago and NYC haven't done nearly as well.
Well, pobody's nerfect.

But at least they're trying. They're not lying to the immigrants and shipping them somewhere else, without informing anyone on the other end.

-- A2SG, so, there's that....
 
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lifepsyop

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Because Martha's Vineyard wasn't prepared for them

Martha's Vineysrd is a small island with a mostly seasonal economy. Massachusetts has resources elsewhere that could help them, and Governor Baker made thst happen. The citizens of Martha's Vineyard did what they could until then, though. They didn't lie to them and dump them elsewhere without telling them where they were going.

Your excuses for Martha's Vineyard fall flat.

Space is a valuable resource. One way, maybe one of the most important ways, you help people is to tolerate their presence in your daily lives and routines. Accept them on your streets and in the parks where your kids play. This is what the people of Martha's Vineyard were not willing to share.

Martha's Vineyard is a population of 20,000 with an average annual income of $140,000. Taking care of 50 migrants was simply not an issue in terms of physical resources. They simply were not going to tolerate a migrant presence around their homes. Instead of feeling blessed by the chance to take care of a small number of needy foreigners, the people of Martha's Vineyard freaked out and started pointing fingers.

The point is for the lower American classes to have to pay those social costs, while affluent progressives virtue-signal how inclusive they are.

That is why the migrants were being bussed out of Martha's Vineyard by the military within 48 hours.
 
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Your excuses for Martha's Vineyard fall flat.

Space is a valuable resource.
Texas has quite a bit more space than Martha's Vineyard. The real issue is not if Martha's Vineyard is equipped to help migrants, the issue is why in the world did Desantis spend taxpayer money to remove migrants and transport them from Texas to Martha's Vineyard?

The point is for the lower American classes in Florida had to pay to transport Migrants from Texas to Martha's Vineyard.

Republican governors shipping migrants to democratic states should have been a crime, at least the migrants who were sent to Martha's Vineyard can sue those who transported them under false pretenses. Massachusetts took care of the strangers after Florida and Texas cast them out.
 
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A2SG

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Your excuses for Martha's Vineyard fall flat.

Space is a valuable resource. One way, maybe one of the most important ways, you help people is to tolerate their presence in your daily lives and routines. Accept them on your streets and in the parks where your kids play. This is what the people of Martha's Vineyard were not willing to share.

Martha's Vineyard is a population of 20,000 with an average annual income of $140,000. Taking care of 50 migrants was simply not an issue in terms of physical resources. They simply were not going to tolerate a migrant presence around their homes. Instead of feeling blessed by the chance to take care of a small number of needy foreigners, the people of Martha's Vineyard freaked out and started pointing fingers.

The point is for the lower American classes to have to pay those social costs, while affluent progressives virtue-signal how inclusive they are.

That is why the migrants were being bussed out of Martha's Vineyard by the military within 48 hours.
Have you ever been to Martha's Vineyard? I have.

The vast majority of wealthy residents don't live there. They have vacation homes they visit pretty much exclusively in the summer. The year round residents, who aren't the wealthiest ones but those who own the shops and don't have second homes elsewhere to go to in the winter, are not who you're picturing.

Remember, DeSantis sent the immigrants in September. When the tourists and wealthy inhabitants had already gone home.

Know how many jobs are available on a resort Island during the off season? Not many. As I said, they did what they could, until Governor Baker offered better resources.

And, let's not forget, Massachusetts did provide those better resources. They just weren't on Martha's Vineyard in September.

-- A2SG, but don't think I didn't notice you ignoring DeSantis' underhanded and deceptive handling of the situation....
 
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RDKirk

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Texas has quite a bit more space than Martha's Vineyard. The real issue is not if Martha's Vineyard is equipped to help migrants, the issue is why in the world did Desantis spend taxpayer money to remove migrants and transport them from Texas to Martha's Vineyard?
These people can't be just shipped out to west Texas, and you know that. The amount of money it cost to ship a migrant to Massachussetts (let's say $500) is less than the state would spend on that person in a week. How do I know? Because I've personally and directly been involved with our church's effort to maintain an illegal immigrant family while they got their situation straightened out. The effort ended horribly, btw, a complete failure in all ways. It taught me a personal lesson that the federal government policy is wrong for everyone. And it cost us some church membership.
 
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These people can't be just shipped out to west Texas, and you know that. The amount of money it cost to ship a migrant to Massachussetts (let's say $500) is less than the state would spend on that person in a week. How do I know? Because I've personally and directly been involved with our church's effort to maintain an illegal immigrant family while they got their situation straightened out. The effort ended horribly, btw, a complete failure in all ways. It taught me a personal lesson that the federal government policy is wrong for everyone. And it cost us some church membership.
Taxpayer money paid for the flights which will now cost even more due to the lawsuits. Dismiss as you like but that is the truth.

Ship the problem out, not help the people. It was a failed political stunt.

What Desantis did has led to these migrants getting put to the front of the line for a path to a visa based on being victims of crime.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Excellent albeit long article​

Inside Ziklag, the Secret Organization of Wealthy Christians Trying to Sway the Election and Change the Country

A network of ultrawealthy Christian donors is spending nearly $12 million to mobilize Republican-leaning voters and purge more than a million people from the rolls in key swing states, aiming to tilt the 2024 election in favor of former President Donald Trump.

These previously unreported plans are the work of a group named Ziklag, a little-known charity whose donors have included some of the wealthiest conservative Christian families in the nation, including the billionaire Uihlein family, who made a fortune in office supplies, the Greens, who run Hobby Lobby, and the Wallers, who own the Jockey apparel corporation. Recipients of Ziklag’s largesse include Alliance Defending Freedom, which is the Christian legal group that led the overturning of Roe v. Wade, plus the national pro-Trump group Turning Point USA and a constellation of right-of-center advocacy groups.

“We are in a spiritual battle and locked in a terrible conflict with the powers of darkness,” says a strategy document that lays out Ziklag’s 30-year vision to “redirect the trajectory of American culture toward Christ by bringing back Biblical structure, order and truth to our Nation.”

Ziklag’s 2024 agenda reads like the work of a political organization. It plans to pour money into mobilizing voters in Arizona who are “sympathetic to Republicans” in order to secure “10,640 additional unique votes” — almost the exact margin of President Joe Biden’s win there in 2020.

But Ziklag is not a political organization: It is a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt charity, the same legal designation as the United Way or Boys and Girls Club. Such organizations do not have to publicly disclose their funders, and donations are tax deductible. In exchange, they are “absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office,” according to the IRS.

The reporting by ProPublica and Documented “casts serious doubt on this organization’s status as a 501(c)(3) organization,” said Roger Colinvaux, a professor at Catholic University’s Columbus School of Law.

“I think it’s across the line without a question,” said Lloyd Hitoshi Mayer, a University of Notre Dame law professor.

“Dominion Over the Seven Mountains”​

Ziklag has largely escaped scrutiny until now. The group describes itself as a “private, confidential, invitation-only community of high-net-worth Christian families.”

Ziklag appears to be the first coordinated effort to get wealthy donors to fund an overtly Christian nationalist agenda, according to historians, legal experts and other people familiar with the group. “It shows that this idea isn’t being dismissed as fringe in the way that it might have been in the past,” said Mary Ziegler, a legal historian and University of California, Davis law professor.

To address their concerns about education, Ziklag’s leaders and allies have focused on the public-school system. In a 2021 Ziklag meeting, Ziklag’s education mountain chair, Peter Bohlinger, said that Ziklag’s goal “is to take down the education system as we know it today.”

The Seven Mountains theology embraces a different, less democratic approach to gaining power. “If the Moral Majority is about galvanizing the voters [i.e. a grassroots effort to sway voters to your message], the Seven Mountains is a revolutionary model: You need to conquer these mountains and let change flow down from the top,” said Matthew Taylor, a senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies and an expert on Christian nationalism. “It’s an outlined program for Christian supremacy.”

The Ziklag files detail not only what Christians should do to conquer all seven mountains, but also what their goals will be once they’ve taken the summit. For the government mountain, one key document says that “the biblical role of government is to promote good and punish evil” and that “the word of God and prayer play a significant role in policy decisions.”

For the arts and entertainment mountain, goals include that 80% of the movies produced be rated G or PG “with a moral story,” and that many people who work in the industry “operate under a biblical/moral worldview.”
 
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essentialsaltes

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Trump-loving dentist's chilling threats to critics who disagreed with his views... read his sick messages to prominent reverend

A 60-year-old Florida dentist has been charged with sending death threats to Donald Trump critics online, telling more than 40 victims 'we are going to kill you.'

Richard Glenn Kantwill, a US army veteran turned dentist from Tampa, could spend up to 15 years in jail if convicted on three counts of interstate transmission of a threat to injure.

Reverend Chuck Currie, from Oregon, identified himself as one of the victims, saying: 'People like Kantwill may make threats, but Donald Trump inspires them.'

The message labelled him an 'anti-Christian piece of [poop]' and told him, 'we are going to kill you. Torture first, then death.'

It added: 'You will deny Christ, just like Judas because you are a coward. Either way... prepare to die.'

'You won't see Christ ... because you as re [sic] an immoral degenerate.'

[If you declare people 'anti-Christian' for not supporting your political candidate, [and threaten them with torture] you might just be a Christian Nationalist. Also, a switch to decaf may be in order.]

According to court documents, Kantwill 'blamed the Government, minorities, and other entities for being the reason he had been speaking out.'
 
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essentialsaltes

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Christian Nationalist Pastor Joel Webbon Apparently Traumatized By Non-Christians In His Neighborhood

“I walk around my neighborhood and it’s not that there are [just] different shades of white and brown,” he added. “No, it’s like full, straight-up Hindu garb at our neighborhood swimming pool that my daughter is asking [about and] I’m trying to explain.”
Texas pastor Joel Webbon is a radical Christian nationalist who advocates something called general equity theonomy, a far-right Christian theology that asserts that laws and rules set out in the Old Testament still apply today.

"In [ancient] Israel, and this should be the law of the land in our country ... If you perjure yourself by bearing false witness accusing somebody else, whatever the penalty would have been for that person had they been found guilty, then that penalty should fall on your head for falsely accusing them."

"If that were to occur and the just penalties were to be enforced, you, the false accuser, is now put to death," Webbon declared. "And that's a public death. It's a public sentence, publicly carried out, then the citizens of these United States of America, you know what they would do? #MeToo would end real fast. False accusing, playing the victim when you're actually not; you know how to end that real fast? All you have to do is publicly execute a few women who have lied."
 
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