• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Understanding Islam

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ValleyGal, Aug 22, 2014.

  1. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    The issues about abrogation have to do with Jurisprudence more than the Qur'an. When the Madhabs of Islamic Jurisprudence were developing (About 200 years after the Quran) questions came up as to what Surat should be usedas guides. the consensus was to use the newest ones.

    The abrogations in the Qur'an were not a surah replacing an older one but as how the later Surah developed from the older., very similar to how the OT led to the development of the NT.

    The best example is how alcohol came to become forbidden. First there was no prohibition mentioned. Then Drunkenness was forbidden then excessive use of alcohol and finally the prohibition of any amount of alcohol.
     
  2. simplegifts

    simplegifts Guest

    +0
    One issue I see is that any Muslim who wants to do harm or cause a fellow Muslims to do harm can easily get away with it. LOL!! Remember Geraldine - "The devil made me do it"? THE DEVIL MADE ME BUY THIS DRESS! - YouTube

    Muslim beheads someone and says - My religion made me do it!!

    Interesting thought the "Old" Quran = peaceful. The "New" Quran = violent. How exactly does a violent verse develop from a peaceful vere?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2014
  3. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    It doesn't.

    The Meccan and Medinah eras are 2 separate things.

    The Meccan era deals with the teaching of Allaah(swt) and his love, mercy and justice.

    The Medina era deals with the actions of people. It also speaks of the wars when the the Muslims were attacked frequently by the non-Muslims and nearly destroyed. The ayyats should not be taken as commands or justifications to harm people simply because they are not Muslim.

    I did find a quite good paper about the differences in the Mecca and Medinah phases of Muhammad(saws)'s life and the differences in the people. The link is a bit lengthy and is more from an historical few rather than Religious. It is by a non-Muslim but it does give quite a bit of insight. You can read it
    HERE
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2014
  4. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +116
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I still think you are (in good faith) making the Quran more Gospel like, you are doing reverse abrogation, abrogating the more violent verses with the peaceful ones.

    In searching for verse 9:5 I found this link. It seems Quran is not only conflicting with itself, but changing.

    “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful” (Surah 2:192).
    “But there is no compulsion in religion” (Surah 2:256).


    All went away with verse of the sword. Not only that, Muhammad broke the peace treaty without a time limit with verse of the sword as well, remember in Torah when the Israelite went into Canaan and was deceived a treaty? They can't break it.


    And Muhammad even claimed God changed center of worship. All the Bible (OT and NT) claim Jerusalem is the center of worship, so does early verses of Quran, but changed. It almost seems like after Muhammad got stronger, he did what the Catholic church did, starting to want more Money and power, and throw God's word away.
     
  5. simplegifts

    simplegifts Guest

    +0
    What? You said -The abrogations in the Qur'an were not a surah replacing an older one but as how the later Surah developed from the older...

    2 separate things. - Yes peaceful versus violent/political Islam.
     
  6. steve_bakr

    steve_bakr Christian

    +193
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    It seems that you may not understand the true historical background of the so-called violent verses, an understanding which I find essential to understanding the Quran.

    There is an argument out there that says it is more appropriate for the more universal Meccan revelations to abrogate the more circumstance-oriented Medina revelations. Also, that peace abrogates violence.

    It should be noted that almost through the entire career of Muhammad, he had to deal with those whose goal was to eliminate, through treachery and violence, Muhammad himself and the religion of Islam. Islam's primary enemies were the polytheist Arabs who vastly outnumbered the monotheist Muslims.
     
  7. Supreme

    Supreme British

    +442
    Protestant
    Single
    Indeed. It certainly helps to put these verses in a historical context.
     
  8. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +116
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Me and Woodrow has going through this a lot now.

    It is Muhammad's own action (in hadithes) that tells how he is interpreting Quran. See the following Ahadithes. The violent verses are also in direct contradiction of the peaceful parts of the Quran, such as no forced conversions (If not converted attack will follow)

    When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

    Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
     
  9. steve_bakr

    steve_bakr Christian

    +193
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    The Quran tells Muslims not to be the aggressors and of course not to compel others to accept their religion. The Quran has to be the standard against which all these hadiths (ahadith) are measured.

    How many ahadith are there? I read somewhere in the neighborhood of 750,000. The entire system of the validation of ahadith needs to be re-evaluated.

    Many of these ahadith were invented to justify the agendas of groups and individuals, even if they do have "credible" isnads.

    So, it doesn't really hold water to select certain ahadith to justify your agenda because there are also ahadith that support an entirely different view.

    I think that--as difficult as this may be--it is better to rely on the Quran and biographical material such as that expressed by contemporary scholar Martin Lings (Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources).
     
  10. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    The total number of Ahadith that are in various collections is well over 1,000,000

    But only about 35,000 have been authenticated and of those there are varying levels of Authenticity and Reliability.

    For the person not well versed in the Study of Hadith it is best to not rely upon them as a source of information.
     
  11. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +116
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The second is from Sahil Muslim, "Sahih Muslim is a collection of hadith compiled by Imam Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Naysaburi (rahimahullah). His collection is considered to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet".

    Initially I tried to dismiss all Ahadithes, but when encountered the verse of the sword, I was told to seek the historical context. That is when I noticed Muhammad's own interpertation of Quran is contradict with early Quran.

    The verse of the sword is thought to be the last verse Muhammad revealed. At the time he is very strong. Many told me to see the verse in context, but it is clear not only is this verse contradict to the early verses that goes with the principle of the Bible, Muhammad's own actions also indicate the same.

    And yesterday, I realized that Muhammad is like Solomon or Saul, God might have called on him to deliver something, but after he is strong, he went off course.
     
  12. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the only 2 collections in which all the Ahadith are Authenticate. Authenticity meaning the original reporter is know to have lived and did live in the vicinity and time of Muhammad(saws) the Hadith has be traced back to having actuallt reported by the named witness.

    What we do not always know from the Ahadith alone are:

    Who was being spoken to?

    What was the occasion?

    What was being discussed?

    When was the Hadith recorded?

    What was meant by it?

    Why did it impress the witness to cause him to record it?
     
  13. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +116
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Woodrow, the problem is I kept encountering them. Just today I was going through Sahil Muslim and saw book 19 4292, about raid the disbelievers. Apparently only in the earlier days of Isam to extend an invitation, and no longer required later on (is that because the Muslims are strong in number?).

    Also notice how they were attacked by just not accept Islam? Again a clear violation of the peaceful verses of Quran.

    There are violent verses in OT, but at least I can say that maybe after several thousand years it became corrupt and Jesus come and clarified. Can you claim the same of Quran? If you can't, then why is Muhammad (a prophet, not just a common man) doing things clearly prohibited by Quran?

    book 19, 4292:
    Chapter : Regarding permission to make a raid, without an ultimatum, upon the disbelievers who have already been invited to accept Islam.
    Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before making them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.
     
  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

    +246
    Non-Trinitarian
    Private
  15. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Not quite as clear as it seems. One problem with reading ahadith in translations. Different translators lay them out differently and sometimes add their own commentary.

    Muslim Book 19 titled 'The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wal-Siyar Deals with the rules of war. It contains 181 Ahadith the first one 4292 is essentially a question that is answered in following Ahadith.

    To read the first 10 Ahadith in the book with out any comments of the Translator we have. (The red highlights are my doing)

    For the Entire 181 Ahadith in Book 19 see HERE
     
  16. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Be certain to read the disclaimer on the page

     
  17. simplegifts

    simplegifts Guest

    +0
    002.106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

    Of course in our [followers of Christ] minds peace should always abrogate violence!! That is what Christ taught.

    Not the same with Mohammad. The truth of Islam is that the Quran verses placed in chronological order and the violent verse are the later verses.

    The Quran is set up so that if a person wants to be violent they can and it will please allah.
     
  18. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    You are misunderstanding what is meant by abrogation. It does not mean any Surat were thrown out or replaced. This all has to do with Islamic Jurisprudence. the concept of abrogation is a legal concept that has to do with the legal systems of the nations not the following of the Qur'an. This developed about 200 years after Muhammad(saws) and is a concept used in the 4 madhabs to determine what is the maximum punishment permitted for crimes.

    No where was the Qur'an changed, it grew as the people became familiar with Islam.

    The big differences between the Mecca and Madinah Surat are the people they were revealed to. the People of Mecca were all non-Muslims when the Revelations began. It was an era of learning about Allaah(swt) and the reasons He is to be worshiped. The people of Medinah had already accepted Islam and the revelations were directed to Muslims, mostly admonishments for errors they were continuing with.

    Another thing to keep in mind most Muslims do not read the Qur'an as a single book, most of us read it as 30 Juz and typically the First Juz read is Juz 30 which contains the earliest revelations.

    Today the Qur'an can be found bound in several different forms. Like these:

    HERE


    The thirty volume set is the one generally used for learning the Qur'an typically the student first learns Juz 29 and 30 which are the earliest revealed Surat.

    From there the next step will be to study one with full tajweed and written in the Uthman Script. It is not as confusing as it seems.

    In most Muslim Households the Mother will be the first teacher of the Qur'an and the teaching methods will differ, but most often you will find the order of teaching begins with Juz 30 and then by the teacher's preference. Most kids with even rudimentary Islamic education are aware of the order the Surat were revealed.







     
  19. simplegifts

    simplegifts Guest

    +0
    Yes I understand.

    The problem is that the Quran allows for a violent leaning person to be violent. It also points to the fact that the Quran is an incomplete book. Supposedly a fully detailed a final and complete word from allah the Quran is a fail.
     
  20. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +116
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That is also one of my concerns. God/Jesus knows people are sinners so the Gospel is all peaceful (even then men will still be violent). And when there are vague and violent verses in Quran, all hell break lose.