Understanding Islam

WoodrowX2

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I like this link you posted -

World's top Muslim leaders condemn attacks on Iraqi Christians Vatican Radio

however are these statesmen or clerics?

Are these Islamic religious leaders world wide condemning ISIS or is this a group of government officials and is the picture in response to ISIS?

They were part of a group of Muslims invited to the Vatican as part of an interfaith movement to end ISIS.

We do not have any ordained clergy, at one time or another every Muslim will function as a cleric. Including women.

What is usually considered a Top-Muslim leader is a Muslim that has become well known and respected. I am familiar with the 2 named in the Link.

Madani would be more in the line of a Statesman, but he is considered the world's top lawyer in the field of Islamic Jurisprudence. Sort of the highest authority on what constitutes Shariah law.

The other is Mehmet Gormez, one of, if not the most respected Muslim Clerics and an expert on the establishment of a Calphate. He is a spiritual leader not a Statesman.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by dcalling
If Muhammad is a Jew than that point holds. However unlike Judaism Islam also believe Yeshua as the Messiah, and Muhammad said he is here to confirm the Torah and Gospel. As we all know Gospel's direction is much different, no more violence for the people. With this Muhammad's actions are no longer in according to God (yes Christians does not follow Gospel fully either, but things should be different for God's messenger).
You believe it was some kind of violence free-for-all in Judaism? We were not authorized to random violence. If you believe that, you aren't paying enough attention when reading the Tanach.

The New Testament describes wars that will happen when Jesus returns, so it isn't like violence is completely missing.
There were a lot of battles and wars back in the 1st century within the Jewish state of Israel and Jerusalem.......

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE 70ad

Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem. While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero ; whereupon, not knowing what the will of the future emperor might be, he prudently resolved to suspend, for the present, the execution of his design. Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years ; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed, but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity.

The flame of civil dissension again burst out and, With more dreadful fury. In the heart of Jerusalem two factions, contended for the sovereignty, raged a against each other with rancorous and destructive animosity. A division of one of these factions having been excluded from the city (vide page 26,) forcibly entered it during the night. Athirst for blood, and inflamed by revenge, they spared neither age, sex, nor infancy ; and the morning beheld eight thousand five hundred dead bodies lying in the streets of the holy city. They plundered every house , and having found the chief priests Anaius and Jesus, not only slew them, but, insulting their bodies, cast them forth unburied.

Matthew 24:6
"Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles/wars/polemouV <4171> and hearings of battles.
Be seeing no be being alarmed, for it is binding to be becoming, but not as yet is the END.
Mar 13:7
And when ye shall hear of wars/battles G4171 and rumours of wars, G4171 be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Luk 21:9
But when ye shall hear of wars/battles G4171 and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Rev 12:7
And there came a battle/war in the heaven;
Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,''







.
 
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dcalling

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I think you're referring to the verse that says there is no compulsion in religion? Some scholars do say that it was abrogated, but none of the scholars took this to mean that there was no option for the jizyah to the best of my knowledge. If the Muslims conquered a non-Muslim land, they were not allowed to force the people to become Muslims. Instead, the able-bodied adult men from the non-Muslims were to pay jizyah.

First you said the verse might be abrogated, the next sentence you seems to be firm that forced conversion is not allowed. Is both a maybe?

As for the hadeeth you quoted,

The term “people” here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (19/20)]

“Let there be no compulsion in religion.” | IslamToday - English

When Muhammad is alive, you can say that he knows who God allows to fight. But when he is dead, who is talking to God to know who should they fight? Yet after Muhammad's death, there are lot of wars and expansions. Christianity shows the wisdom of God, since God knows once his prophets are not there, people will misuse God's words, so God didn't leave any thing violent at all. People will choose to transgress, but they can't blame God for it.

Jesus was sent by the same Lord Who sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them both) as the final Messenger.
Muhammad claimed that his message is the same, yet do you see how different the 2 are?

Anyway, I thank God that Islaam is a way of life. It gives guidelines for a variety of life situations including war. Perhaps it would have served the Christians in the past (and present) well to have such guidelines because, as we can see, pacifism was not practical for them for sustained periods of time and many of them went to the polar opposite of pacifism.

Pacifism is not suited for the world, we trust God will be the salvation for us. See how the ISIS fighters are so anxious, killing all include women/children? I have read in some genocide commited by Muslims they go and kill all the young people. See how you are so worried and so angry whenever there is something tiny that seems to oppose Islam? All those are deep insecureness, that you are trusting the world, not God, for your causes.

ISIS is doing what Muhammad was doing, just more extreme. God didn't promise Muhammad any land, yet he go on conquer even to people who are peaceful, totally opposite to what Jesus teaches. I pray to God that some day you might see this.
 
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First you said the verse might be abrogated, the next sentence you seems to be firm that forced conversion is not allowed. Is both a maybe?

No, I said that some scholars say it's abrogated. Being abrogated doesn't mean that forced conversions are allowed.

When Muhammad is alive, you can say that he knows who God allows to fight. But when he is dead, who is talking to God to know who should they fight? Yet after Muhammad's death, there are lot of wars and expansions.

Again, Islaam gives clear guidelines of war (all praises belong to Him).

Christianity shows the wisdom of God, since God knows once his prophets are not there, people will misuse God's words, so God didn't leave any thing violent at all. People will choose to transgress, but they can't blame God for it.

And look at how Christians have behaved throughout history. They have one of the bloodiest histories of any group. So again, I say that perhaps they would have done well with clear guidelines for war and we may not have seen so many genocides & indiscriminate massacres on their part.

Muhammad claimed that his message is the same, yet do you see how different the 2 are?

No, I know how similar they are. They both told the people to worship their Lord and our Lord, Allaah. They both taught that they were mere men and had no claim to divinity in any sense.

What I do see is how some people have corrupted the teachings of my beloved Prophet, Jesus, peace be upon him and ask God to guide them to that which pleases Him (i.e. Islaam)

See how you are so worried and so angry whenever there is something tiny that seems to oppose Islam?

I'm sorry, "so worried and so angry" about what "tiny" things?

All those are deep insecureness, that you are trusting the world, not God, for your causes.

No, bad analysis. It's anger at injustice and presenting a different view to those who are fed propaganda against Islaam/Muslims in the mainstream media.

ISIS is doing what Muhammad was doing, just more extreme.

Or, if we go by your logic, maybe they're doing similar to what God/Jesus (according to Judaism/Christianity) commanded and killing all the inhabitants of some cities....just less extreme.

Anyway, my Prophets (Jesus, Muhammad, and the rest, peace be upon them) are far above what ISIS is doing.
 
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LoAmmi

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As far as I can tell, pretty much everybody except ISIS think ISIS is a bad group. I haven't seen much in the way of support coming from Muslims and if there are Muslims supporting them, they are wrong.

Look at the history of people publicly condemning the Holocaust while it was going on. Lots of silence from Christians when the majority of people in the Nazi party were Christian. In fact, one could argue that without Christianity the Holocaust would never have happened because of how Christians did not take what is now called the proper message from the New Testament and mistreated Jews throughout Europe leading up to the 20th Century.

Read Of The Jews And Their Lies by Luther if you want to see what some Christians called for during that time.
 
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however are these statesmen or clerics?

Are these Islamic religious leaders world wide condemning ISIS or is this a group of government officials and is the picture in response to ISIS or just a group picture without an ISIS purpose at the time?

First of all, Muslims as a whole should not be expected or asked to apologize or condemn the actions of ISIS. I posted this piece in another thread.

Secondly, lots of Muslims (including those who do not give two hoots of what the West and/or non-Muslims want Muslims to do) were condemning ISIS even before they became a household name in the West. But, of course, that's largely ignored. Conclusive scholarly opinions on ISIS | Islam21c

if there are 1 Billion Muslims and 2 Billion Christians

*1.7 & 2.2 billion respectively.

why is it that for every one muslim incident of capturing someone and then chopping their head off on video -- we don't have two Christians doing the same thing?

How come Muslims haven't dropped 1 atomic bomb on an entire city since Christians dropped 2? God forbid.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
I like this link you posted -

World's top Muslim leaders condemn attacks on Iraqi Christians Vatican Radio

however are these statesmen or clerics?

Are these Islamic religious leaders world wide condemning ISIS or is this a group of government officials and is the picture in response to ISIS or just a group picture without an ISIS purpose at the time?
As far as I can tell, pretty much everybody except ISIS think ISIS is a bad group. I haven't seen much in the way of support coming from Muslims and if there are Muslims supporting them, they are wrong..........

Read Of The Jews And Their Lies by Luther if you want to see what some Christians called for during that time.
First of all, Muslims as a whole should not be expected or asked to apologize or condemn the actions of ISIS. I posted this piece in another thread.

Secondly, lots of Muslims (including those who do not give two hoots of what the West and/or non-Muslims want Muslims to do) were condemning ISIS even before they became a household name in the West.

But, of course, that's largely ignored. Conclusive scholarly opinions on ISIS | Islam21c...................
Thank you for that info and links.



.
 
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dcalling

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No, I said that some scholars say it's abrogated. Being abrogated doesn't mean that forced conversions are allowed.

Anyway, a peaceful verse is abrogated, allowed Muhammad to attack peaceful cities.

Again, Islaam gives clear guidelines of war (all praises belong to Him).

Jesus said ""Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.". It is very clear. There are common people who can't follow such commands, but it will be very strange a prophet of God can't follow such.

And look at how Christians have behaved throughout history. They have one of the bloodiest histories of any group. So again, I say that perhaps they would have done well with clear guidelines for war and we may not have seen so many genocides & indiscriminate massacres on their part.

You can see even with God clearly states that no violence, people commit violence. God knows how people will behave, and why will he change his message to be more violent again?

No, I know how similar they are. They both told the people to worship their Lord and our Lord, Allaah. They both taught that they were mere men and had no claim to divinity in any sense.

What I do see is how some people have corrupted the teachings of my beloved Prophet, Jesus, peace be upon him and ask God to guide them to that which pleases Him (i.e. Islaam)

Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemy. I don't see the central Christian message been corrupted, I only see it not obeyed.

Now why would Muhammad attack peaceful people? Do you mean that is also a corrupt of teaching?

I'm sorry, "so worried and so angry" about what "tiny" things?

No, bad analysis. It's anger at injustice and presenting a different view to those who are fed propaganda against Islaam/Muslims in the mainstream media.

Or, if we go by your logic, maybe they're doing similar to what God/Jesus (according to Judaism/Christianity) commanded and killing all the inhabitants of some cities....just less extreme.

God repeatedly told the Jews that he is given the land to them. God repeatedly said how bad the inhabitants were (burn their kids to other Gods). God told the Jews to drive them out, and only give the 'extermination' command on rare occasions (My Jewish friends can correct me if I was wrong). God also shows dispose when some Jews attacked peaceful people.

Muhammad on the other hand, was not given land by God, give peaceful messages then later abrogated them, attacked and looted peaceful people that didn't do anything to him. His message is self conflicting, else in this day of information, why would so many young people join the violent ISIL?

Anyway, my Prophets (Jesus, Muhammad, and the rest, peace be upon them) are far above what ISIS is doing.
 
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dcalling

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As far as I can tell, pretty much everybody except ISIS think ISIS is a bad group. I haven't seen much in the way of support coming from Muslims and if there are Muslims supporting them, they are wrong.

Look at the history of people publicly condemning the Holocaust while it was going on. Lots of silence from Christians when the majority of people in the Nazi party were Christian. In fact, one could argue that without Christianity the Holocaust would never have happened because of how Christians did not take what is now called the proper message from the New Testament and mistreated Jews throughout Europe leading up to the 20th Century.

Read Of The Jews And Their Lies by Luther if you want to see what some Christians called for during that time.

There will always be people who misuse the word of God. But compare to Quran, the Gospel make it a lot harder to misuse.
 
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Rationalt

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There will always be people who misuse the word of God. But compare to Quran, the Gospel make it a lot harder to misuse.

That is true.There are some christians who tend to veer towards OLD way and they create problems.But, those christians will have a hard time justifying those actions in the light of gospels.
 
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Islam_mulia

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Jesus said ""Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.".
Why did Jesus said that? What is the context?

Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemy.
I have not read any Christian soldier, general, military leader, who follow this. Could this teaching been made impractical or only for non-combatants only?
 
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7he4uthor

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does islamb eat lamb ?
or just ram?
does islamb have the lamb of god?
isnt gods lamb the best lamb?
new zealand lambs have quite the zeal
i have herd from the herd ... but bah's the rumor
and maaaaaahm's the word
IsLamb at peace with the Lion ?
 
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dcalling

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Why did Jesus said that? What is the context?

Matthew 26:52, the Romans come to arrest Jesus before put him on the cross. Some followers wanted to fight and that is when Jesus said that.

I have not read any Christian soldier, general, military leader, who follow this. Could this teaching been made impractical or only for non-combatants only?

Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemy, not many people can do that, except those who truly follow God and put their trust in God.

The early Christians did that, they are easily arrested and killed, because most of them don't lie and don't fight back against the Romans, yet God helped them and they prevailed.
 
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Anyway, a peaceful verse is abrogated, allowed Muhammad to attack peaceful cities.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying or what Islaam says and we're going around in circles. I'm going to stop here.

Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemy. I don't see the central Christian message been corrupted, I only see it not obeyed.
Prophet Jesus' (peace be upon him) central message has been altered from
'there being no deity worthy of worship except Allaah' to God's slave & Messenger, Jesus, being worshipped. Prophet Jesus is free from such blasphemous claims.

His message is self conflicting, else in this day of information, why would so many young people join the violent ISIL?
1.) Do you also think Jesus' message was conflicting since the religious, knowledgeable Christian leaders approved of the Crusades and many people, young and old, participated?

2.) As for why some people have joined ISIS, they might agree with their extremist views, they might have believed that ISIS was going to be an actual khilaafah that ruled according to the Qur'aan & sunnah, or they might be double agents working for Assad (because, really, Assad benefited from ISIS) or others.

3.) You never answered. What "tiny" things had me "so worried and so angry"?
 
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simplegifts

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Why did Jesus said that? What is the context?

I have not read any Christian soldier, general, military leader, who follow this. Could this teaching been made impractical or only for non-combatants only?
Jesus had previously told the Disciples.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus considered 2 swords enough? Were the swords for protection for the Disciples? Was it for Jesus to give one more teaching? Perform one more miracle?

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Luke 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?
 
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dcalling

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I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying or what Islaam says and we're going around in circles. I'm going to stop here.

Prophet Jesus' (peace be upon him) central message has been altered from
'there being no deity worthy of worship except Allaah' to God's slave & Messenger, Jesus, being worshipped. Prophet Jesus is free from such blasphemous claims.

Why can't God put a part of himself into a human? i.e. God can put his spirit into a human, so that human acts/speaks exactly as what God would?

1.) Do you also think Jesus' message was conflicting since the religious, knowledgeable Christian leaders approved of the Crusades and many people, young and old, participated?

I can pull up a number of NT verses and tell those knowledgeable Christian leaders they are in conflict with the Bible. The moment I pull up Quran verses that indicates the Gospel is not corrupted, all Muslims will disagree. and you and Woodrow can't even agree upon if Islam is peaceful.

2.) As for why some people have joined ISIS, they might agree with their extremist views, they might have believed that ISIS was going to be an actual khilaafah that ruled according to the Qur'aan & sunnah, or they might be double agents working for Assad (because, really, Assad benefited from ISIS) or others.

With ISIS massacre Syrian soldiers on mass, and do you really believe they are double agents for Assad? ISIS actions is not too far from what Muhammad's understanding of the Quran from some Hadith, else how would all those people from all the nations keep flocking there (even a report that some Chinese Muslim, upon failing to get out of the country to support ISIS, killed many civilians in a train station).

3.) You never answered. What "tiny" things had me "so worried and so angry"?
A lot, from many of your posts, there were anti Muslim protests by Buddhists because a Muslim guy rapped a girl, you were angry (for the protests, not the rape), for all the extrem Isis actions, only Assad was reported.

And you never answered my question, if you have a choice, do you want to be ruled under ISIS, Assad or Israel?
 
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Why can't God put a part of himself into a human? i.e. God can put his spirit into a human, so that human acts/speaks exactly as what God would?

You might as well be asking me why God can't become part Satan and part, I don't know, tree (I seek refuge with God from such blasphemy). God is the Most High and we don't believe Him becoming His creation is befitting to His Majesty.

The Names and Attributes of God told to us in Islaam make so much more sense to me than anything else. There is nothing like unto Allaah, as He told us in the Qur'aan. God also does not tire, eat, drink, have to excrete the waste from those things. He cannot be overcome and He definitely cannot be killed. To say this would be to go against the Qur'aan and what we know of Allaah. If you are interested in learning more about God's Names/Attributes, you can read it here.

I can pull up a number of NT verses and tell those knowledgeable Christian leaders they are in conflict with the Bible.
Yet we still have the Christians' extremely bloodthirsty & violent history to look at throughout centuries with no sustained period of time where they ruled with justice and peace. Muslims, on the other hand, did....and we're the ones with the clear guidelines for war.

The moment I pull up Quran verses that indicates the Gospel is not corrupted, all Muslims will disagree.
No, they won't. Who were the Muslims on this forum who disagreed with the notion that the current scriptures that the Jews & Christians hold today are corrupted? I think the only people who keep trying to claim this are non-Muslims.

and you and Woodrow can't even agree upon if Islam is peaceful.
What do you mean? I don't think either of us believe that Islaam is a pacifist religion. And I would venture to guess that both of us believe that Islaam brings peace, both in the spiritual sense and in the societal sense.

But even if we disagreed, what's your point?

With ISIS massacre Syrian soldiers on mass, and do you really believe they are double agents for Assad?
ISIS has killed lots of Syrian rebels (including those whom the West would label as "Islamists") en masse as well and there were reports from the other Syrian rebels that Assad would not engage ISIS in fights. In fact, one big criticism leveled against ISIS by scholars and rebels is that they are often found fighting against the rebels instead of against Assad. They also swoop in at the last minute when the rebels have just about won against the Syrian government in some places and claim the victory and freed area as theirs.

Either Assad has his supporters infiltrating ISIS or he just leaves them alone for the most part because he knows they're beneficial to him. Not only do they fight against the rebels, thus forcing the other rebels to fight on two fronts, but it also stokes the West's fears which may lead to them fighting against the Syrian rebels.

ISIS actions is not too far from what Muhammad's understanding of the Quran from some Hadith,
ISIS' actions are much more similar to what your scriptures say God commanded at times. This is getting repetitive.

else how would all those people from all the nations keep flocking there (even a report that some Chinese Muslim, upon failing to get out of the country to support ISIS, killed many civilians in a train station).
I already gave some options:

1.) They agree with ISIS' extremist views
2.) They actually believed that ISIS was going to have a real khilaafah (i.e. they were sincere but very misinformed)
3.) They are some sort of infiltrators.

A lot, from many of your posts, there were anti Muslim protests by Buddhists because a Muslim guy rapped a girl, you were angry (for the protests, not the rape), for all the extrem Isis actions, only Assad was reported.
What? I don't know which incident you're talking about, but I can generally say that I am angry because Buddhist extremists/terrorists are targeting Muslims in Burma and Sri Lanka. In Burma, for instance, a Muslim Rohingya woman's three children were burned to death and another 2 of her children died on a boat as they were fleeing the persecution. And I can't find it right now, but another parent was describing the impaling of their child on a sword by the extremists.

Neither Burma's actions nor Assad's are "tiny" things.

And you never answered my question, if you have a choice, do you want to be ruled under ISIS, Assad or Israel?
I never answered because I haven't responded to the post yet.

God protect me from such a terrible decision and may He help those who have to live under the oppression of any of those three.
 
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BaconWizard

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God is the Most High and we don't believe Him becoming His creation is befitting to His Majesty.

God is not subject to your judgement, by your lack of imagination, by what you consider to be moral or appropriate behaviour. If he was, he would not be a god. What is being attacked or debated in such conversations is not God's majesty, but yours. God is perfectly well able to defend himself should he choose, or even care.

If you actually believe in God as much as you claim, then you must submit as the name Islam suggests.

You do not get to speak for God, God gets to speak for you.

This reduces the response of any offended theistic party to bruised ego and nothing more.
 
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God is not subject to your judgement, by your lack of imagination, by what you consider to be moral or appropriate behaviour. If he was, he would not be a god. What is being attacked or debated in such conversations is not God's majesty, but yours. God is perfectly well able to defend himself should he choose, or even care.

If you actually believe in God as much as you claim, then you must submit as the name Islam suggests.

You do not get to speak for God, God gets to speak for you.

This reduces the response of any offended theistic party to bruised ego and nothing more.

And God says,

[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (Ash-Shuraa 42:11)

Say: He is Allaah, the One. Allaah, the Self-Subsisting. He begets not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. (Surah al-Ikhlaas 1-4)

Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - so worship Him and have patience for His worship. Do you know of any similarity to Him?" (Surah Maryam 19:65)

He, Himself, said that there is nothing (i.e. His creation) like unto Him. His Names and Attributes are what make God, God.
 
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