Understanding Evolution

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DogmaHunter

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You have not pointed out where atheist Darwinist creationism is anything but humanity being created by ONLY random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanisms acting on a single life form of long long ago.

I don't need to point out anything when all you have is strawman nonsense.

Again, how many times must it be repeated that your mantra is not representative of the theory as established in mainstream biology?


If you have any other impetus taught by atheistic Darwinist creationism other than ONLY naturalistic mechanisms, post it....as I've asked you to repeatedly not.

And I've answered every time that there are no non-natural mechanisms known to play a role in the process.

You (dishonestly) pretend that that means that non-natural mechanisms are not allowed. But that is your problem, not mine.

I've asked you this before and you blatantly ignored it. Here is that question again...
Do you understand the difference between these two statements:

- non-natural mechanisms are not allowed
- there are no non-natural mechanisms known to play any kind of role in the process

I'ld expect you to understand the difference... but your relentless repeats of your strawmanning mantra suggests otherwise.

There is not a single lie or falsehood.

Your mantra is a lie. You've been explained dozens, if not hundreds, of times how it is wrong and you continue to repeat it.

To lie = to say things you know aren't true.
 
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DogmaHunter

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All you need to do is point out a life form which wasn't a bird but that produced a bird. When you do, the birds will be birds will be birds claim will fall quickly.

I have a lot of trouble taking you seriously. If I didn't know any better, I'ld say you are just trolling and acting like a Poe.

A "bird" is a taxonomical classification. This classification is hierarchical and vertical in nature.

A dog is a canine. A canine is a mammal. A mammal is a tetrapod. A tetrapod is build from eukaryote cells.

All dogs are canines, mammals, tetrapods and eukaryotes.
All mammals are tetrapods and eukaryotes.
All tetrapods are eukaryotes, but not all tetrapods are mammals.
Not all mammals are canines.
All canines are mammals.


Just like all thumbs are fingers. But not all fingers are thumbs.

The "birds produce birds" thing works downwards. The descendents of birds will be birds. That doesn't mean or imply that the ancestors of birds must also be birds.

But hey, don't let intellectual honesty get in the way of your silly crusade against science.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I take note of your unwillingness to answer my question.
Evasion much?

Here's something for you to look up. That which wasn't a bird which produced a bird. Is that so hard?

Dinosaurs.

Of course the birds only produce birds which will only produce birds claim will have to modified at that point in time, won't it?

No.

Birds produce birds: yes.
But birds don't produce their own ancestors. They produce off spring.
Birds coming from non-birds doesn't break the "birds produce birds" concept.

A tetrapod will not produce a non-tetrapod.
A mammal will not produce a non-mammal.
A primate will not produce a non-primate.
A human will not produce a non-human.

Humans as a whole were produced by non-humans. But humans are primates and the ancestral non-human was also a primate: primates produce primates.

Primates as a whole were produced by non-primates. But primates are mammals and the non-primate ancestor was also a mammal: mammals produce mammals.

Mammals as a whole were produced by non-mammals. But mammals are tetrapods and the non-mammal ancestor was also a tetrapod: tetrapods produce tetrapods.


You see?
Speciation always happens vertically downwards. A species splits in subspecies. It moves towards more and more "specialization" if you wish.

Eukaryote => tetrapod => mammal => primate => homo sapiens.

All descendents of sapiens will be a sapiens, primate, mammal, tetrapod and eukaryote.
All descendents of primates will be a primate, a mammal, a tetrapod and eukaryote.
All descendents of mammals will be mammals, tetrapods and eukaryotes
etc....



I don't know how to explain it any easier. And I wonder why I even bother.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No new life form would occur without mutations.

With only mutations and no selection, life would have been extinct long ago.
While, off course, changes must be introduced in some way, the core of the mechanism is natural selection.

If you wish to identify one part of the process as the "engine", I'ld say that "natural selection" best fits the role. But that's just my opinion, I don't see how it's really relevant either way though. All aspects of the theory are important in the end...

No mutations = no changes
no selection = no filtering of changes.
Both need to be present for the process to work.


What DNA evidence is there that natural selection produces new life forms without random/chance mutations?

This loaded question implies thing that I have never said.
Your dishonesty is showing again.


For example, the development of the eye is allegedly the result of random/chance mutations, not natural selection.

It is the result of both.
Without mutations, there would no changes to "select".
Without selection, there would no functioning eyes.

Random changes don't produce natural camera's.
Random changes followed by non-random selection is what produces natural camera's.
 
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DogmaHunter

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When I say created, birds for example, I mean that non-bird life form from which the first bird came. Something created it....the first bird.

So you do really mean that there is a pair of non-bird individuals that gave birth to a bird?

You do really mean to say that at one point in time, in a specific generation, a member of species A gave birth to a member of species B?

Is that correct? Is that what you think evolution theory says?
 
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justlookinla

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From the abstract of a recent Science paper 'Sustained miniaturization and anatomical innovation in the dinosaurian ancestors of birds' (Lee, Cau, Naish & Dyke, 2014):

"The theropod lineage directly ancestral to birds undergoes sustained miniaturization across 50 million years and at least 12 consecutive branches (internodes) and evolves skeletal adaptations four times faster than other dinosaurs. The distinct, prolonged phase of miniaturization along the bird stem would have facilitated the evolution of many novelties associated with small body size, such as reorientation of body mass, increased aerial ability, and paedomorphic skulls with reduced snouts but enlarged eyes and brains."

Its behind a pay-wall, but there are some others that aren't. Downsized Dinosaurs: The Evolutionary Transition to Modern Birds (Luis M. Chiappe, 2009) is a short (9 pages) intro into the subject of the therapod to avian transition, and its freely available for download.

Again, from the abstract:

"The origin of modern birds from animals similar to Tyrannosaurus rex is among the most remarkable examples of an evolutionary transition. A wealth of recently discovered fossils has finally settled the century-old controversy about the origin of birds and it has made the evolutionary saga toward modern birds one of the best documented transitions in the history of life. This paper reviews the evidence in support of the origin of birds from meat-eating dinosaurs, and it highlights the array of fossils that connect these fearsome animals with those that fly all around us."


Read. Learn. Enjoy. ;)

I did read, I learned and did enjoy. Thank you for actually taking the time to post something of content instead of making the usual 'we have evidence' claim with no accompanying information.

Unfortunately, the opening sentence of the abstract offers nothing but a claim without underlying support.

"Recent discoveries have highlighted the dramatic evolutionary transformation of massive, ground-dwelling theropod dinosaurs into light, volant birds."​

I also read the Chiappe abstract and found nothing identifying the non-bird life form which produced the first bird. Simply saying "dinosaurs" doesn't identify the life form.

The article continues......

"Here, we apply Bayesian approaches (originally developed for inferring geographic spread and rates of molecular evolution in viruses) in a different context: to infer size changes and rates of anatomical innovation (across up to 1549 skeletal characters) in fossils."​

I wasn't familiar with the term "Bayesian approaches" and found that it's simply a series of guesses and suppositions used to arrive at a conclusion. Randomness, chance and uncertainty is part of the equation in this approach also.

"Bayesian methods are characterized by the following concepts and procedures:

The use of random variables, or, more generally, unknown quantities, to model all sources of uncertainty in statistical models. This also includes uncertainty resulting from lack of information (see also the aleatoric and epistemic uncertainty).

The need to determine the prior probability distribution taking into account the available (prior) information.

The sequential use of the Bayes' formula: when more data becomes available, calculate the posterior distribution using the Bayes' formula; subsequently, the posterior distribution becomes the next prior.

For the frequentist a hypothesis is a proposition (which must be either true or false), so that the frequentist probability of a hypothesis is either one or zero. In Bayesian statistics, a probability can be assigned to a hypothesis that can differ from 0 or 1 if the truth value is uncertain."​

I'm finding the usual uncertainties, could be's, might be's, probably's and 'we suppose' language that always accompany certain evolutionary views.

To continue, from the article....

"These approaches identify two drivers underlying the dinosaur-bird transition."​

The mention of "drivers" certainly piqued my interest. Regretfully, no "drivers" were identified in the remainder of the summary nor in the Chiappe abstract you referenced so we still haven't identified the impetus, the 'driver' which produced the first bird from a non-bird (unidentified) source.

But, to continue.....

"The theropod lineage directly ancestral to birds undergoes sustained miniaturization across 50 million years and at least 12 consecutive branches (internodes) and evolves skeletal adaptations four times faster than other dinosaurs."​

How? Why? And this is only addressing birds being birds being birds.

"The distinct, prolonged phase of miniaturization along the bird stem would have facilitated the evolution of many novelties associated with small body size, such as reorientation of body mass, increased aerial ability, and paedomorphic skulls with reduced snouts but enlarged eyes and brains."​

"Miniaturization"? Again, how? Why? And yet again addressing birds being birds.

The editors summary is interesting also.....

"Most paleontologists agree that birds are descended from dinosaurs. How did such large terrestrial or aquatic animals evolve into small feathered fliers?​

Right...how? Now, note the usual phrases and words in the remainder of the summary....

" Lee et al. used two large databases of theropod morphology to explore possible evolutionary patterns that may have driven this dramatic transformation (see the Perspective by Benton). They found no clear pattern of miniaturization across the entire clade of Theropoda. However, several lines of evidence suggested that the lineage leading to birds underwent sustained miniaturization. Within that lineage, body sizes decreased and species evolved faster. They also developed ecological and morphological innovations linked to smaller body sizes."​

While the articles were interesting, they were no more than the usual guesses and suppositions, without evidence that ONLY random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanisms produced new life forms. To be fair, they did not actually suggest that particular impetus in the articles....they never identified the 'driver'. But if the impetus was something other than that, the identification of that non-naturalistic impetus would be interesting also.

Again, I do appreciate your response.
 
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justlookinla

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I don't need to point out anything when all you have is strawman nonsense.

Again, how many times must it be repeated that your mantra is not representative of the theory as established in mainstream biology?

Point out where it's wrong. Identify which part of random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless is in error.

And I've answered every time that there are no non-natural mechanisms known to play a role in the process.

You (dishonestly) pretend that that means that non-natural mechanisms are not allowed. But that is your problem, not mine.

Of course non-naturalistic mechanisms are not allowed. That's the reason there are court cases when such impetuses are suggested.

I've asked you this before and you blatantly ignored it. Here is that question again...
Do you understand the difference between these two statements:

- non-natural mechanisms are not allowed
- there are no non-natural mechanisms known to play any kind of role in the process

I'ld expect you to understand the difference... but your relentless repeats of your strawmanning mantra suggests otherwise.

The final conclusion is there is no difference. Construct the sentence however you wish, the conclusion of either constructs is that ONLY naturalistic mechanisms are allowed as the impetus for the alleged single life form of long long ago producing humanity.

Your mantra is a lie. You've been explained dozens, if not hundreds, of times how it is wrong and you continue to repeat it.

To lie = to say things you know aren't true.

LOL. Call me a liar but aren't calling me a liar? LOL.

I know that only random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanisms are permitted as the impetus for the creation of humanity from an alleged single life form of long long ago in atheistic Darwinist creationism.
 
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justlookinla

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I take note of your unwillingness to answer my question.
Evasion much?

Dinosaurs.

Which one?

No.

Birds produce birds: yes.
But birds don't produce their own ancestors. They produce off spring.
Birds coming from non-birds doesn't break the "birds produce birds" concept.

I haven't said that birds produce their own ancestors. I'm asking for the non-bird which produced a bird. Also, if that is the case, then birds have the ability to produce something other than a bird.

A tetrapod will not produce a non-tetrapod.
A mammal will not produce a non-mammal.
A primate will not produce a non-primate.
A human will not produce a non-human.

Humans as a whole were produced by non-humans. But humans are primates and the ancestral non-human was also a primate: primates produce primates.

Primates as a whole were produced by non-primates. But primates are mammals and the non-primate ancestor was also a mammal: mammals produce mammals.

Mammals as a whole were produced by non-mammals. But mammals are tetrapods and the non-mammal ancestor was also a tetrapod: tetrapods produce tetrapods.


You see?

I see the claim but I don't see the evidence.

Speciation always happens vertically downwards. A species splits in subspecies. It moves towards more and more "specialization" if you wish.

A an alleged single life form from long long ago becoming a human and a pine tree is not explained by speciation.

Eukaryote => tetrapod => mammal => primate => homo sapiens.

All descendents of sapiens will be a sapiens, primate, mammal, tetrapod and eukaryote.
All descendents of primates will be a primate, a mammal, a tetrapod and eukaryote.
All descendents of mammals will be mammals, tetrapods and eukaryotes
etc....

I don't know how to explain it any easier. And I wonder why I even bother.

I appreciate your effort. But all you're doing it presenting guesses and suppositions without underlying evidence.
 
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justlookinla

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With only mutations and no selection, life would have been extinct long ago.
While, off course, changes must be introduced in some way, the core of the mechanism is natural selection.

Only mutations would produce new life forms, not natural selection.

If you wish to identify one part of the process as the "engine", I'ld say that "natural selection" best fits the role. But that's just my opinion, I don't see how it's really relevant either way though. All aspects of the theory are important in the end...

How does natural selection produce new life forms?

No mutations = no changes
no selection = no filtering of changes.
Both need to be present for the process to work.

The filtering does not produce new life forms. Only mutations would introduce new mechanisms in the life form.

This loaded question implies thing that I have never said.
Your dishonesty is showing again.

What? How is this a "loaded question" and what part of it is dishonest?

"What DNA evidence is there that natural selection produces new life forms without random/chance mutations?"​

Amazing the character assassination attacks you come up with.

It is the result of both.
Without mutations, there would no changes to "select".
Without selection, there would no functioning eyes.

Random changes don't produce natural camera's.
Random changes followed by non-random selection is what produces natural camera's.

I'm going to resist comparing a camera to the eye and asking which is designed.
 
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justlookinla

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So you do really mean that there is a pair of non-bird individuals that gave birth to a bird?

You do really mean to say that at one point in time, in a specific generation, a member of species A gave birth to a member of species B?

Is that correct? Is that what you think evolution theory says?

I really mean to say that at some point in time, birds didn't exist. Then at some point in time, birds existed. The how and why is the question.
 
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Smidlee

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With only mutations and no selection, life would have been extinct long ago.
While, off course, changes must be introduced in some way, the core of the mechanism is natural selection.

.
Those who believe like this believes war is necessary to remove the weak. This belief of natural selection is in direct war with Christianity since we believe in protecting the weak and remove as much as possible the almighty natural selection from human society.
Some evolutionist believes by removing natural selection that the human race will become extinct.
 
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Dizredux

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Those who believe like this believes war is necessary to remove the weak. This belief of natural selection is in direct war with Christianity since we believe in protecting the weak and remove as much as possible the almighty natural selection from human society.
Some evolutionist believes by removing natural selection that the human race will become extinct.
I think you are confused about natural selection. It is not the selection of the strong over the weak, it is about the best adapted to the local environment resulting in more successful reproduction. Really, in many natural selection is better described as the selection of the slightly more adequate.

Dizredux
 
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Smidlee

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I think you are confused about natural selection. It is not the selection of the strong over the weak, it is about the best adapted to the local environment resulting in more successful reproduction. Really, in many natural selection is better described as the selection of the slightly more adequate.

Dizredux

I think you don't understand natural selection since it's not a real force. Death is the real force not NS. NS is all about eliminating the weak.
 
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Dizredux

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I think you don't understand natural selection since it's not a real force. Death is the real force not NS.
I never said it was a force. It is a process.

Death is not the only factor in natural selection, there are others. Sometimes, for example, it is simply about who can successfully mate.


Dizredux
 
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Smidlee

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I never said it was a force. It is a process.

Death is not the only factor in natural selection, there are others. Sometimes, for example, it is simply about who can successfully mate.


Dizredux

We (humans) are very successful at mating but we are not subject to natural selection which is why some are alarmed about our extinction. As one evolutionist put it we are less fit than caveman.
 
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Dizredux

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We (humans) are very successful at mating but we are not subject to natural selection which is why some are alarmed about our extinction.
How are we not subject to natural selection?
As one evolutionist put it we are less fit than caveman.
Cite please or is this one of the several things you vaguely remember as reading or seeing somewhere and yet report as fact.

Dizredux
 
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Smidlee

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How are we not subject to natural selection? Cite please or is this one of the several things you vaguely remember as reading or seeing somewhere and yet report as fact.

Dizredux

http://www.amazon.com/Genetic-Entropy-Mystery-Genome-Sanford/dp/1599190028

We had this debate before here where some tried to claim Sanford is misrepresent those he quotes in his book as if they support his position. The idea of man becoming less fit is agreed upon but they disagree "The fall" is the cause but the fact NS is no longer a factor to human population. (Sanford never claimed in his book they were creationists.)
 
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Dizredux

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http://www.amazon.com/Genetic-Entropy-Mystery-Genome-Sanford/dp/1599190028

We had this debate before here where some tried to claim Sanford is misrepresent those he quotes in his book as if they support his position. The idea of man becoming less fit is agreed upon but they disagree "The fall" is the cause but the fact NS is no longer a factor to human population. (Sanford never claimed in his book they were creationists.)

Here is the description of his book on Amazon
'
Dr. John Sanford, a retired Cornell Professor, shows in Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome that the "Primary Axiom" is false. The Primary Axiom is the foundational evolutionary premise - that life is merely the result of mutations and natural selection. In addition to showing compelling theoretical evidence that whole genomes can not evolve upward, Dr. Sanford presents strong evidence that higher genomes must in fact degenerate over time. This book strongly refutes the Darwinian concept that man is just the result of a random and pointless natural process.

Several points I would like to see him establish.
1."Merely" the result of mutations and natural selection.-There is quite a bit more to it than that.
2. Genomes must in fact degenerate over time. -Can he support this?
3. Just the result of a random and pointless natural process. This is very wrong just on the face of it.

If the description is accurate, I think he has a long way to go to gain any credibility for his theories.

As I suggested before, you might wish to look at some of the professional criticisms before taking what he says "whole hog". It is good to get both sides of something like this.

Right now, he sounds like just another creationist but I am taking this only from the description of his book.

Dizredux
 
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Smidlee

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Here is the description of his book on Amazon
'


Several points I would like to see him establish.
1."Merely" the result of mutations and natural selection.-There is quite a bit more to it than that.
2. Genomes must in fact degenerate over time. -Can he support this?
3. Just the result of a random and pointless natural process. This is very wrong just on the face of it.

If the description is accurate, I think he has a long way to go to gain any credibility for his theories.

As I suggested before, you might wish to look at some of the professional criticisms before taking what he says "whole hog". It is good to get both sides of something like this.

Right now, he sounds like just another creationist but I am taking this only from the description of his book.

Dizredux
In another words he's a creationist so he must be wrong at every point he makes.
 
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