UNDER THE LAW!

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
works of the law is a concept tied to the adherence of Judaism & it’s teachings/commandments/rituals(the oral law).

If that is true, then how can "the doers of the law(of Moses) be justified"?
Isn't that the opposite of what you are claiming?

not under law · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless

You think that refers to the entire law? So it was possible in your view, for people to commit no sin/perfectly obey the law? Why did Jesus die on the cross if that is the case?
Do you believe, neither Elizabeth or Zechariah ever had a single impure thought, even as teenagers? Without slip they always perfectly loved all their neighbours?

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You have it backwards. IMHO
A product of your own presuppositions. "Under the law" means one thing only.
It is one of two options. Under the law, or under grace. Take your pick.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

If you’re living life in disobedience to God’s law, then you’re not under grace.

I’ve already proven that the phrase “under the law” is used in several different ways, and even @not under law quoted the different ways it’s used, even though they weren’t quoted in agreement with me.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
Why didn't you include verse 18?

It was my post. I get to choose.
Why didn't you include verses 20-21? (disproves your claim?)

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
If that is true, then how can "the doers of the law(of Moses) be justified"?
Isn't that the opposite of what you are claiming?

The law of Moses and Judaism are 2 different things.

Judaism and the law of Moses are opposed.

do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
No he doesn't. He's quoting the Torah.

"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.
He didn't say: "It is written in the law..." Why not?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Then in the Sermon on the Mount we see Christ referring to the law as hearsay.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
It was my post. I get to choose.
Why didn't you include verses 20-21? (disproves your claim?)

LOL!

I did include them. Apparently you didn't read carefully enough.

For your review:

Excerpt from: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Lawlessness.

Obviously those verses don't describe those who have come to faith.

19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Paul makes it clear that those who break the law, are under the law; and that they'll be left speechless upon verdict. Those who break the law are under the consequence of breaking the law.

20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin, is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Should we then abandon the law?

Of course not! Works of the law is obedience to the law. It's against the law to speed in the U.S.. People who respect that law make a conscious effort to stay within the limits; however they inevitably get distracted sometimes and exceed them. Maybe they don't get caught; because their normal mode of behavior is to respect the law. YHWH sees all.

Now, one day maybe a law abiding driver does get caught. Maybe it was the first time in his life that he was ever distracted. Is that a defense for the violation; that he never broke the law before? NO! He wasn't supposed to break the law. Keeping the law is what was expected of him; but a righteous judge will take the driver's will to obedience into consideration, and extend grace.

21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), 22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),

This passage pertains to YHWH's righteousness, as in his patience, he passes over former sins, for those who come to faith. Does this mean that the law is abolished? Of course not, When the judge shows grace for a misstep; it's not a free pass to continue in lawlessness.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.
He didn't say: "It is written in the law..." Why not?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Then in the Sermon on the Mount we see Christ referring to the law as hearsay.

Nonsense. if you knew the Torah; you'd know what he was talking about.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
They made him shave his head and pay for temple sacrifices to clarify any confusion about his obedience to the law; yet it seems some remain confused.

No. It was to save his life from rabid lovers of the law. (zealots)

At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. - Galatians 4:29

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Apostle Paul had a reputation as well.
Someone earlier on this thread had mentioned this passage below as proof that Paul was upholding the law. And verse 24 seems to indicate that. But look at the reputation of Paul as stated in verse 21. What did Paul teach about circumcision and about the law? We have the epistles to confirm all this. You can't toss out the book of Galatians based on one verse in Acts. (Acts 21:24)

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
If you’re living life in disobedience to God’s law, then you’re not under grace.

I’ve already proven that the phrase “under the law” is used in several different ways, and even @not under law quoted the different ways it’s used, even though they weren’t quoted in agreement with me.

Then I disagree with both of you.

And I said nothing of God's law. (not the same as the law, which I said at the beginning) Something we should discuss here.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
do you agree that the law of Moses is the law of God?

Yes, I agree with that. In the sense that God directed Moses to write it down. Moses didn't create "the law"; it is the law of God. (not the same as "God's law", though)
I also believe that "the law of Moses" (except in reference to the books) and "the law" are the same thing.

- the law
- God's law
- Christ's law
Three different things.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
No. It was to save his life from rabid lovers of the law.

Is that why Paul went out and circumcised Timothy right after the meeting; because Paul was a zealot? If Paul is you Messiah, perhaps you should be more zealous for the law.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
Nonsense. if you knew the Torah; you'd know what he was talking about.

Oh course. But why did he state it that way? The passage is unique it that sense. It was intentional.

Saint Steven said: ↑
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.
He didn't say: "It is written in the law..." Why not?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Then in the Sermon on the Mount we see Christ referring to the law as hearsay.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
- the law
- God's law
- Christ's law
Three different things.

- the law: when it comes to Paul, ambiguous. Which law?

God's law = Christ's law

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
Is that why Paul went out and circumcised Timothy right after the meeting; because Paul was a zealot? If Paul is you Messiah, perhaps you should be more zealous for the law.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

This whole issue was supposed to be settled in Acts chapter fifteen. Any questions?

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
- the law: when it comes to Paul, ambiguous. Which law?

God's law = Christ's law

My turn to say it; "Nonsense!"

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.

He didn't say hearsay.

If you went to hear the Torah read, every Shabbat, you would have heard it said too. You might better understand Yahshua too; as most of what Yahshua spoke came right out of the Torah. He spoke his Father's words.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
- the law: when it comes to Paul, ambiguous. Which law?

The point is ONLY valid when the word "of" follows "the law".
That is not the case here. (no "of")

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Yes, I agree with that. In the sense that God directed Moses to write it down. Moses didn't create "the law"; it is the law of God. (not the same as "God's law", though)
I also believe that "the law of Moses" (except in reference to the books) and "the law" are the same thing.

- the law
- God's law
- Christ's law
Three different things.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

I’m glad you agree. Some posters will not agree, even with multiple witnesses from both the Law/Prophets & the NT.

God only has 1 law, and it is the law he gave to Moses, which you agree that the “law of Moses” is the law of God.

“God’s law” is modern, English phrasing. It didn’t exist in the Bible days, because they didn’t speak and write the way we do with the English language.

Hebrew is similar to Spanish, in the sense that they write the object and say who/what it belongs to.

For example, soy milk in Spanish is “leche de soya”, which means milk of soy. We don’t talk like that in English - we say Soy milk. we are saying the same thing, but in 2 different ways)

God’s law is the law of Moses

God’s law = the law of God

“the law” being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 9 is the pesky oral law that keeps popping up

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
He didn't say hearsay.

That is so lame. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.

UNDER THE LAW!

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