Undecided

[Brewserx]

Sorry driewerf, what I meant is without faith you go to hell, according to christianity.

If as time passes certain parts of the bible are deemed to not be literal anymore, how do we know what part(s) will meet that fate next. It appears more and more to me that believing Jesus is the son of god isnt that much different then when our ancestors believed in Genesis or the great flood and Noah. I cant demand proof because Im told I have to have faith. What about the people in ancient times that had faith genisis and other stories that arent taken literally anymore. It turns out their faith was misplaced and for nothing. Just so many questions.

 

[Brewserx]

driewerf, if it is true what you say, that some creationist believe that evolution will destroy their beliefs then it wont matter what evidence you present them. There is already so much proof and still they (creationists) turn away. This tells me that they will never believe anything other then creationism. Which is really sad. Instead of enriching their lives by learning more about what god created they latch onto the bible at all costs.

 

[driewerf]

driewerf, if it is true what you say, that some creationist believe that evolution will destroy their beliefs then it wont matter what evidence you present them. There is already so much proof and still they (creationists) turn away. This tells me that they will never believe anything other then creationism. Which is really sad. Instead of enriching their lives by learning more about what god created they latch onto the bible at all costs.

What I wrote is true. Look at these two youtube videos:
YouTube - Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 22)
YouTube - Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 23)

(The complete serie of "Why people laugh at creationists" is fanatastic.)

Not a single creationist article, video or what ever can stand the critical scrutiny. They are either stuffed with gross distortions, baseless statements or blatant lies.

 

[driewerf]

I guess I would call myself a christian. Do I make it every sunday? No, I dont. I actually find myself going less and I know why. Lately I have really been into evolution and other theories that, for some, bring into question some of our beliefs. To me it appears that evolution is on the verge of becoming fact, some scientists already consider it so. I guess what I am asking is, have I heard all the information? Truthfully I have never felt more distant from christianity in my life.

Now, to correct some things in your OP:
Evolution is not accept by "some" scientists. It is accepted by more than 95% of the scientists, among who all Nobel prize winners (in relevant sciences).
It is taught at all science departments of all universities through the world.
It is a fact, and it has been observed.
Here you will find a list of observed speciation:
Observed Instances of Speciation

Transitional fossils have been found, that have a blend of two types of animals, that form literally a transition from one life form to another:
List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ

 

[Doveaman]

Faith come with all religion. If you dont have faith you go to a firey hell. Without faith our religion falls apart. Without it the unanswered questions become to much. I just cant believe that our all powerfull god, who created what we know and what we dont would expect us to follow blindly. A god with the extreme scientific knowledge he must have would want us to question everything and eventually uncover his secrets. He would not want us to always remain in a state of ignorance called faith.

From the way you describe faith (as being blind and ignorant) it is clear you have no clue what Christian faith is, and probably never had it. So you are only being critical of what you never understood.

The bible is where faith is defined and explained.

And yet you still don’t understand what it is. You either don’t read the Bible or you are reading it wrong, because Christian faith is not blind and ignorant. Christian "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." - Heb 11:1.

There is nothing blind and ignorant about Christian faith. However, there is something blind and ignorant about those who don’t understand what faith is.

This brings me to my same issue, why should I believe what is written in the bible?

If you have faith you will. If you don’t have faith you can’t.

Im not concerned about what individual men wrote. I can throw together a book and claim it to be inspired-directed by god. My book would most definately suck as I am a poor author but no one could 100% prove me to be wrong.

If your book ‘suck’ I am 100% certain you would be proven wrong.

 

[Doveaman]

Then god is to blame for my lack of faith. He can't send me to hell for not having faith, he's the one who didn't gave it to me.

Just because we don't have faith doesn't mean it is not our fault. It is God will to give everyone faith, but some of us are just too stubborn to receive it:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of His kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed. - Rom 2:4-5.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

From the way you describe faith (as being blind and ignorant) it is clear you have no clue what Christian faith is, and probably never had it. So you are only being critical of what you never understood.
And yet you still don’t understand what it is. You either don’t read the Bible or you are reading it wrong, because Christian faith is not blind and ignorant. Christian "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." - Heb 11:1.

There is nothing blind and ignorant about Christian faith. However, there is something blind and ignorant about those who don’t understand what faith is.
If you have faith you will. If you don’t have faith you can’t.
If your book ‘suck’ I am 100% certain you would be proven wrong.

So your basically saying the christian faith is wishfull thinking?

Honestly though I wish you could atleast man up enough to say "Yeah they got the same thing, but I believe they are wrong".

Rather then that you try to find new ways to say the same thing which is fooling noone and leaves your only remaining defense "Well you do not understand you never had it"

I am sorry but I just call it the way I see it.

 

[Doveaman]

I am sorry but I just call it the way I see it.

Don't we all?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

As a Christian, do you have a personal relationship with Christ? Because that's what Christianity is, you know.

Usually when a person's faith is troubled by evolution it is because their faith is in the wrong things. If your faith is in Jesus, then being right or wrong about evolution is neither here nor there. Remember, Christ lived before Darwin, and many faithful Christians lived and died before Darwin was born and died.

Christianity has nothing to do with weather or not evolution is correct, it has to do with weather or not Jesus is correct, and if you believe Jesus is correct then put your faith in Him and keep it there.

That's odd. How do you have a personal relationship with someone you can't hear, see or touch? That's like asking, do you have a personal relationship with Abraham Lincoln.

Oh, and you're right, christianity doesn't have anything to do with the "weather."

 

[Doveaman]

That's odd. How do you have a personal relationship with someone you can't hear, see or touch?

Not all creatures experience reality through hearing, seeing and touching.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Not all creatures experience reality through hearing, seeing and touching.

Yes, they do.

 

[Doveaman]

Yes, they do.

Nope. Reality does not require the human senses to experience it. If that was so then all creatures would have human senses.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Nope. Reality does not require the human senses to experience it. If that was so then all creatures would have human senses.

"Creatures" in your context was in reference to humans. Nice semantic prestidigitaions there. I would expect nothing less from a creationist.

And you still have not answered how a human might have a relationship with someone/something you cannot touch, hear, or see.

 

[sandwiches]

From the way you describe faith (as being blind and ignorant) it is clear you have no clue what Christian faith is, and probably never had it. So you are only being critical of what you never understood.
And yet you still don’t understand what it is. You either don’t read the Bible or you are reading it wrong, because Christian faith is not blind and ignorant. Christian "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." - Heb 11:1.

There is nothing blind and ignorant about Christian faith. However, there is something blind and ignorant about those who don’t understand what faith is.
If you have faith you will. If you don’t have faith you can’t.
If your book ‘suck’ I am 100% certain you would be proven wrong.

Wow... that's a mighty big change from brotherly helpfulness to bitter attacks and even mocking. Not surprising coming from you, just sad really.

What can one do if one doesn't have faith but wants to have it, Doveaman?

I feel like I'll get some nonsense like: "If you REALLY wanted to have faith, you'd have it."

 

[Doveaman]

"Creatures" in your context was in reference to humans. Nice semantic prestidigitaions there. I would expect nothing less from a creationist.

And you still have not answered how a human might have a relationship with someone/something you cannot touch, hear, or see.

Well, you've obviously missed the point. Reality in an experience. Not all creatures have that experience through the same means. The human senses is only one of those means, even for the human.

 

[razzelflabben]

I guess I would call myself a christian. Do I make it every sunday? No, I dont. I actually find myself going less and I know why. Lately I have really been into evolution and other theories that, for some, bring into question some of our beliefs. To me it appears that evolution is on the verge of becoming fact, some scientists already consider it so. I guess what I am asking is, have I heard all the information? Truthfully I have never felt more distant from christianity in my life.

Personally, I have never understood why people think that science and the bible are opposed to one another...in fact, I find them amazingly compatable.

As to the topic at hand, if we read carefully Gen. and construct from that account testable predictions, the amazing thing is that pretty much everything that evidences evolution also evidences creation as given us in scripture. Now that is not to say we can't reconstruct the account to include other things, but the account itself, is not brought into question by real science.

 

[sbvera13]

I guess I would call myself a christian. Do I make it every sunday? No, I dont. I actually find myself going less and I know why. Lately I have really been into evolution and other theories that, for some, bring into question some of our beliefs. To me it appears that evolution is on the verge of becoming fact, some scientists already consider it so. I guess what I am asking is, have I heard all the information? Truthfully I have never felt more distant from christianity in my life.

Among the majority of scientists (>99%), evolution is regarded as already a fact, in that it can be seen happening and observed.

Regarding your choice with Christianity: there is no need for there to be a conflict between the two. Ask yourself this: If God is all powerful, could he created the universe with natural process? Which is more divinely inspired: poofing everything by magic, or making a system so elegant in it's complexity that it creates life naturally and endlessy? Evolution, IMO, is far more incredible and awe-inspiring then some mere act of creation.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Well, you've obviously missed the point. Reality in an experience. Not all creatures have that experience through the same means. The human senses is only one of those means, even for the human.

Right.

 

[Gracchus]

Christian "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." - Heb 11:1.

"On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not", by Robert Burton

There is nothing blind and ignorant about Christian faith. However, there is something blind and ignorant about those who don’t understand what faith is.

As Mark Twain remarked, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." It is a form of dementia, delusion carefully protected from reality. So: Some of us do understand faith.

If you have faith you will. If you don’t have faith you can’t.

That doesn't follow. You don't have to be insane to understand insanity.

If your book ‘suck’ I am 100% certain you would be proven wrong.

This is rather incoherent. You have not justified the protasis much less the apodosis. And the fact that you are certain doesn't mean that you are right, or that we should believe you are, in contradiction to observation and reason. A paranoid schisophrenic may be certain of his imaginary friends, but it is not a defect of sane persons to be unable to perceive them.

 

[Doveaman]

Wow... that's a mighty big change from brotherly helpfulness to bitter attacks and even mocking. Not surprising coming from you, just sad really.

Bitter attacks? I assure you, I am not bitter. But I'm also not stupid. If you were following the thread you would have noticed like I did that He is not interested in Christian advice, even though he may pretend to be. No one who is seriously interested in the Christian faith would call it ignorant and blind.

What can one do if one doesn't have faith but wants to have it, Doveaman?

I feel like I'll get some nonsense like: "If you REALLY wanted to have faith, you'd have it."

I'm sure you would have received much good Christian advice over the years on how faith is received, advice that would have work well for those who gave you that advice. This means the advice is not the problem, but yet that advice doesn't work for you. Makes you wonder why.