Undecided

[rockaction]

Please don't expect us to buy the had-it-and-it-didnt-work-for-me story, either.

I wouldn't expect you to. But I'd expect people who maintain a level of humility about their beliefs to feel sympathetic.

We are all saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and to say you tried it and it didn't work is tantamount to blasphemy.

In fact, if I read your testimony right, you are saying you had faith and one time, and it left you, despite all your attempts to keep it from abandoning you.

Despite Jesus saying, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

(Not to mention the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption; which apparently came prematurely in your case.)

In my opinion -- (which I know you didn't ask for) -- you were either never saved in the first place; or you were saved and sill are, but backslidden.

I hope the latter -- but I'm not your judge.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. (Seeing how you're Baptist it makes sense).

Since I don't believe in the Christian God, I don't believe anyone is "saved". But when I was a Christian, I believed I was saved. Take that for what it's worth. I will likely not ever become a Christian again unless new evidence comes along that shows its validity.

If this God was real and sent me to hell, I'd ask him A) why he didn't write a better book and B) why he created a universe where the smartest people all agreed that it could exist without him.

 

[driewerf]

if you are seeing with the same eyes, I don't think you should. It is only when we put on corrective eyewear that things become more focused. What does I Cor. say, we see through a glass dimly...our vision of the Spiritual is clouded, until we learn to see with different eyes, I don't think we can expect to see any better.

Typically. Believe works only when one already believes. And it works only for the believer.

And that is the big difference with the world of science: it works, wheteher you believe it or not.
My computer works, and is unaffected by the question if I believe he will work or not. Medecines and drugs work, whether you believe it or not.

What you ask is to be already biased toward christianity.

 

[AV1611VET]

I will likely not ever become a Christian again unless new evidence comes along that shows its validity.

I hope you didn't take me the wrong way.

I'm praying you were sincere enough back then to make the right choice.

In any event, if and when you do decide to come back to the fold, you'll find yourself welcomed with open arms -- the same arms that were there for you before.

 

[razzelflabben]

Typically. Believe works only when one already believes. And it works only for the believer.

And that is the big difference with the world of science: it works, wheteher you believe it or not.
My computer works, and is unaffected by the question if I believe he will work or not. Medecines and drugs work, whether you believe it or not.

if you don't believe the computer works, why turn it on? that is the point, when you believe something, you act on it, that is true for the spiritual world as well as the physical one. But having faith in your computer means that you trust it completely, which I'm hoping you know better than to do especially since mine crashing is still fresh in my mind and still in the shop. Anyway, faith is living what you believe, it's putting your trust and confidence in that thing without waiver. One can believe in God without ever fully trusting or having confidence in that God. Sometimes, our faith is misguided, sometimes we believe without faith, which was the point. A good test of faith is about what you live out in your everyday life, and it's from the depths of you being, not just the peer pressures you allow in.

What you ask is to be already biased toward christianity.

no, not at all, in fact, for most people, faith comes way after belief. You could make the argument that belief is to be biased, though I would ask you about the evidence in that case, but faith is about being convinced beyond all reason that what you believe is truth. It's about living with trust and confidence that your belief is truth and good. We can have faith in anything, but that faith plays out in our everyday life as we trust and have confidence in that thing, or person, whatever or whoever that is. Just for the record, My comments were about how to know faith, not about what your faith is in.

 

[Gawron]

I read over the first three pages of this thread and then jumped to the end. Going back to the OP:

Any Christian who would read over a few evolution websites and then claim to be losing his faith in God was having serious trouble with that faith long before he or she read anything about evolution. The atheist propaganda on many of those websites promotes exactly that ideal, "study the evolutionary truth, and the evolutionary truth shall set you free!" Appears to me like the OP has fallen into the trap.

The study of evolutionary science and the practice of your belief in God are not mutually exclusive. The atheist only use that approach in an attempt to drive a wedge between believers. Believers in God, especially Christians, are both ignorant and stupid, say the atheist. The more you learn about evolution, they say, the less you will believe in God. So everyone must study evolution.

This approach is all a bunch of crap. Evolutionary Science is the only discipline which, whole-heartedly, apparently, embraces the additional agenda of attempting to disprove the existence of a divine creator. They will deny this, but it is an assumed assumption. All well and good. But the problem is found with those who promote the evolutionist agenda, an agenda designed to accomplish exactly what the OP is articulating, the weakening and eventual destruction of a Christians faith in God.

Don't believe me? Just watch the flames which follow this post.

 

[sandwiches]

Please don't expect us to buy the had-it-and-it-didnt-work-for-me story, either.

We are all saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and to say you tried it and it didn't work is tantamount to blasphemy.

In fact, if I read your testimony right, you are saying you had faith and one time, and it left you, despite all your attempts to keep it from abandoning you.

That's exactly what happened.

Despite Jesus saying, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

Shows you that the Bible is merely a book not to be taken literally.

(Not to mention the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption; which apparently came prematurely in your case.)

In my opinion -- (which I know you didn't ask for) -- you were either never saved in the first place; or you were saved and sill are, but backslidden.

I hope the latter -- but I'm not your judge.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[sandwiches]

I am not religious, and yet I love my Lord with a passion to rival any in this life. But God isn't about feelings either, it is important to not confuse the two

You mentioned feelings as signs of faith in the post I quoted. How is it not about feelings now?

 

[sandwiches]

I read over the first three pages of this thread and then jumped to the end. Going back to the OP:

Any Christian who would read over a few evolution websites and then claim to be losing his faith in God was having serious trouble with that faith long before he or she read anything about evolution. The atheist propaganda on many of those websites promotes exactly that ideal, "study the evolutionary truth, and the evolutionary truth shall set you free!" Appears to me like the OP has fallen into the trap.

Please link to a scientific website that promotes what you just claimed, otherwise, you're merely lying to make your point.

The study of evolutionary science and the practice of your belief in God are not mutually exclusive. The atheist only use that approach in an attempt to drive a wedge between believers. Believers in God, especially Christians, are both ignorant and stupid, say the atheist. The more you learn about evolution, they say, the less you will believe in God. So everyone must study evolution.

More lying. And I thought Christians were supposed to be better about this. If you had actually bothered to read the replies in this very thread, you would've seen that most atheists indeed agreed that evolution and Christianity do not have to be mutually exclusive. I really don't get why you have to be dishonest to make your point about this.

This approach is all a bunch of crap.

At least you got that right.

Evolutionary Science is the only discipline which, whole-heartedly, apparently, embraces the additional agenda of attempting to disprove the existence of a divine creator. They will deny this, but it is an assumed assumption.

I'm guessing that's why almost half of all evolutionary scientists are Christians? I like how you set up your lies. "If they deny it, this will only confirm my claims." Why not back up your claims with facts instead of lies, champ?

All well and good. But the problem is found with those who promote the evolutionist agenda, an agenda designed to accomplish exactly what the OP is articulating, the weakening and eventual destruction of a Christians faith in God.

Poor paranoid people. It reminds me of the claims of those homophobes regarding the 'homosexual agenda.'

Don't believe me? Just watch the flames which follow this post.

Martyrdom doesn't fit you, tiger. Just tell the facts or show us evidence of your claims of this evolutionary agenda or you're simply lying. Nothing more.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's exactly what happened.


Shows you that the Bible is merely a book not to be taken literally.



Thanks for your opinion.

not long ago, I was talking with a man in SS. He fell from an incredible height, and lived to tell about it. Anyway, he also had the same concept, the same idea about God (and he still believes) anyway, he talked about God meeting him at the bottom of the fall. I asked him where God was during the fall, to which he replied, right there with me...the point is this, we can argue all day about whether or not scripture is right on the issue of who left, but in the end, I have never met an honest person that didn't respond as this one did....God was there, it was me who had to met Him...is this always the case? I can't interview every person in this world to know, but of those who show honesty, I've never seen a different answer. Most of us don't understand that part of God. We think that since we did X, Y or Z it was God that was not there, it was God that moved, but when we discuss the situation, when we talk about the details, like the man in SS, we discover that God didn't move, we did...

So, think about this...if, you once found God, once knew Him, once were compelled by Him, what changed? Did God move? Did He change, or did your ideas change, your vision, your understanding change?

 

[driewerf]

I read over the first three pages of this thread and then jumped to the end. Going back to the OP:

Any Christian who would read over a few evolution websites and then claim to be losing his faith in God was having serious trouble with that faith long before he or she read anything about evolution. The atheist propaganda on many of those websites promotes exactly that ideal, "study the evolutionary truth, and the evolutionary truth shall set you free!" Appears to me like the OP has fallen into the trap.

The study of evolutionary science and the practice of your belief in God are not mutually exclusive. The atheist only use that approach in an attempt to drive a wedge between believers. Believers in God, especially Christians, are both ignorant and stupid, say the atheist. The more you learn about evolution, they say, the less you will believe in God. So everyone must study evolution.

This approach is all a bunch of crap. Evolutionary Science is the only discipline which, whole-heartedly, apparently, embraces the additional agenda of attempting to disprove the existence of a divine creator. They will deny this, but it is an assumed assumption. All well and good. But the problem is found with those who promote the evolutionist agenda, an agenda designed to accomplish exactly what the OP is articulating, the weakening and eventual destruction of a Christians faith in God.

Don't believe me? Just watch the flames which follow this post.

No flames, but some quotes, (with the link) from those "atheist websites" should be welcome.
To date, the only ones who link evolution with religious matters are the creationists and biblical literalists.

 

[ranunculus]

The atheist propaganda on many of those websites promotes exactly that ideal, "study the evolutionary truth, and the evolutionary truth shall set you free!"

source?

 

[razzelflabben]

You mentioned feelings as signs of faith in the post I quoted. How is it not about feelings now?

I mentioned peace, and joy and love, these are not feelings...these are deeper...there is a whole list, but these are the three I focused in on, so let's talk about them a moment.

Peace is an inner calm that comes from a perfect trust. In other words the "feelings" associated from peace are really rooted in the attitude and action of trust.

Joy likewise is an inner attitude of confidence in that thing that we take joy in, an inner confidence so great that it spurs us to have a joy when the world says we should not.

Love also is one of these things that transcend both emotions and actions and attitudes if you will. It is an action in which one puts others above self, and cannot be done unless the condition of the heart is in line with scripture. IOW's, it is something supernatural in nature, something that defies the world and it's laws. It isn't just a compassion, it goes way beyond compassion. It isn't just mercy, it goes way beyond mercy, it's an act of true servanthood. You know what is funny? I've been trying for a long time to get anyone on the forum to talk about God's love according to scripture, and no one is willing to, that is how big and impressive it is...ah well, these things all go beyond emotions which is the point and I apologize for getting a bit zealous about all I have been learning about real love.

 

[Gawron]

You know, sandwiches, it is easy, pitifully easy, to come on and simply start calling names. Your entire response amounts to nothing more than "liar liar pants on fire". I could have gotten a better argument on the third grade playground.

Posted by driewerf:

"To date, the only ones who link evolution with religious matters are the creationists and biblical literalists."

This isn't true, but note that I am not stooping to the childish level of calling you names, I am simply saying you are mistaken.

The cry on these forums is always the same, "provide links provide links provide links or what you say isn't true!" Are we to take from this that those who ask for such proof are incapable of researching anything themselves? Regardless, here is one for you from GodbeGone, posted under the header of Atheist News:

How Endogenous Retroviruses Prove Evolution

Link: [GBG] Atheist News: How Endogenous Retroviruses Prove Evolution

Note that I am not trying to critique the article, just providing one example of an atheist website where evolutionary science is used in an attempt to disprove god.

 

[driewerf]

You know, sandwiches, it is easy, pitifully easy, to come on and simply start calling names. Your entire response amounts to nothing more than "liar liar pants on fire". I could have gotten a better argument on the third grade playground.

Posted by driewerf:

"To date, the only ones who link evolution with religious matters are the creationists and biblical literalists."

This isn't true, but note that I am not stooping to the childish level of calling you names, I am simply saying you are mistaken.

The cry on these forums is always the same, "provide links provide links provide links or what you say isn't true!" Are we to take from this that those who ask for such proof are incapable of researching anything themselves? Regardless, here is one for you from GodbeGone, posted under the header of Atheist News:

How Endogenous Retroviruses Prove Evolution

Link: [GBG] Atheist News: How Endogenous Retroviruses Prove Evolution

Note that I am not trying to critique the article, just providing one example of an atheist website where evolutionary science is used in an attempt to disprove god.

1) What is wrote is true. Creationists are the ones who link the Theory of Evolution (and geology, asteronomy, cosmology etc) with religious matters. I can provide 1, 5 or even tens of quotes that show this.

2) I have carefully read the article you linked to. The only thing the article writes is that ERV's proof evolution. Nothing about christianity, religion or atheims.
Untill now you haven't show anything. So yes

"liar liar pants on fire"

 

[Gawron]

In addition, I have posted the following a number of times both on these forums and others around the web asking the atheist to reconcile these words with their supposed non-belief. To date, I have yet to get a response.

I originally found this posted on ScienceBlogs on the ERV page. It is titled the "atheist dream sequence," and I qoute in its entirity.

"*atheist dream sequence*

Churches turned into libraries. The mega churches into schools. Pews chopped into lumber to rebuild New Orleans. All the shiny s*** melted into scrap metal and all those god awful 'Christian Rock' CDs thrown into a food processor. The Bible is required reading for an ancient literature course that students dread more than Herodotus. Crazy motherf***ers like Kern living in compounds in the hills, waiting for THE HOMO MAN to come eat their children, but never in a political office. Never daring to speak their hateful thoughts around humans."

If atheism is such a benign non-belief, explain this.

 

[Gawron]

Posted by driewerf:

"Untill now you haven't show anything."

You can't be serious. You asked for a link to an atheist website with an example of how evolution is used in an attempt to disprove the existence of god.

Does GodbeGone not qualify as an atheist website? The article was posted under the header of Atheist News, or did you miss that? And please stop being such a myopic literalist. Are you actually trying to take the position that an article about ERVs posted on GodbeGone dot com under the header of Atheist News ISN'T targeted at Christians and/or Creationist?

Or that the Atheist Dream Sequence posted on ScienceBlogs of all places supports your point of view? Please....

 

[driewerf]

Posted by driewerf:

"Untill now you haven't show anything."

You can't be serious. You asked for a link to an atheist website with an example of how evolution is used in an attempt to disprove the existence of god.

Does GodbeGone not qualify as an atheist website? The article was posted under the header of Atheist News, or did you miss that? And please stop being such a myopic literalist. Are you actually trying to take the position that an article about ERVs posted on GodbeGone dot com under the header of Atheist News ISN'T targeted at Christians and/or Creationist?

Or that the Atheist Dream Sequence posted on ScienceBlogs of all places supports your point of view? Please....

The link between the promotion of atheism and evolution exists only in your eyes. None of these subjects is mentionned in the article.

 

[driewerf]

In addition, I have posted the following a number of times both on these forums and others around the web asking the atheist to reconcile these words with their supposed non-belief. To date, I have yet to get a response.

I originally found this posted on ScienceBlogs on the ERV page. It is titled the "atheist dream sequence," and I qoute in its entirity.

"*atheist dream sequence*

Churches turned into libraries. The mega churches into schools. Pews chopped into lumber to rebuild New Orleans. All the shiny s*** melted into scrap metal and all those god awful 'Christian Rock' CDs thrown into a food processor. The Bible is required reading for an ancient literature course that students dread more than Herodotus. Crazy motherf***ers like Kern living in compounds in the hills, waiting for THE HOMO MAN to come eat their children, but never in a political office. Never daring to speak their hateful thoughts around humans."

If atheism is such a benign non-belief, explain this.

No, you didn't.
The whole page reads

Sally Kern: Hate filled [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] for Jesus, Part Deux

Must be read to be believed.

Seriously, thank you to the True Christians who had the decency to step up and defend your god against people like Kern.

Do it again.

Louder, if you really love the beautiful religion of Christianity.

*atheist dream sequence*

Churches turned into libraries. The mega churches into schools. Pews chopped into lumber to rebuild New Orleans. All the shiny [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] melted into scrap metal and all those god awful 'Christian Rock' CDs thrown into a food processor. The Bible is required reading for an ancient literature course that students dread more than Herodotus. Crazy mother[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ers like Kern living in compounds in the hills, waiting for TEH HOMO MAN to come eat their children, but never in a political office. Never daring to speak their hateful thoughts around humans.​

... I dont think its TEH HOMOZ you need to be worried about, Mizz Sally Kern. I think its a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing mirror.

 

[Gawron]

This is what is amazing about attempting to discuss this issue with atheist. How can you guys be so intellectually enlightened and superior while at the same time incapable of drawing an inference or extrapolating to a conclusion based on compiling evidence all at the same time?

 

[ranunculus]

How Endogenous Retroviruses Prove Evolution

Link:

Note that I am not trying to critique the article, just providing one example of an atheist website where evolutionary science is used in an attempt to disprove god.

What you've found is 1 atheist who thinks that believing in god is bad. It's not 'atheist propaganda'. It's one guy voicing his opinion. And then you extrapolate this to mean that atheism is a club that tries to 'disprove' god or make christians choose between god and evolution.
Note that the science article itself says nothing of the sort.