Undecided on the Rapture Timing

[BABerean2]

John witnessed the opening of the seals, because God took him to the time the seals would be opened.

The text says Christ opened the seals one at a time, and then John was told... "Come and see."
John then recorded what he was shown, by writing the Book of Revelation.

That does not mean the events John was shown have already happened.

However, the seals were opened by Christ during the first century.

.

 

[ZNP]

I do not understand your post.

Have you not heard of the 100's of movies over the last 60 years about alien reptiles attacking and taking over the earth?

Satan has already deceived and conditioned this world for all of his deceptions.

Ahh, I get it. This interpretation is strongly influenced by Hollywood.

 

[Running2win]

"Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again"

The bible makes it clear that flesh can not enter heaven, to exist in heaven your body needs to change, unless Enoch and Elijah have been wearing space suits all this time.

Not everyone has to die, those Christians alive at the rapture will not experience death.

The Bible doesn't quite say that, and that Scripture is talking about the 1st resurrection of everyone when Jesus comes back, so the time frame is then- when he is talking about inheriting the Kingdom. And we know Elijah went up to heaven without dying. The issue is reconciling Elijah coming back and dying again. If he had a resurrection body, he could not die. I agree all who are left after the great trib will be changed without seeing death.

My solution is to see God allowing him (them) into Heaven similar to the picture of Joshua below. They are given clean clothes, and of course their sin is taken away because they are believers in Jesus- they looked forward, we look back.

Remember Adam and Eve could still be in Gods presence after they sinned, and Moses saw Gods back parts. Moses doesn't have a resurrection body yet, but is seen talking with Jesus and Elijah when Jesus was transfigured. Notice this was not a "vision", they both appeared and a cloud formed over the mount and God spoke out of it.

2Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; 3and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. 5Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 6For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. 7Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!” 8All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone.

And,

16For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.



Heaven is outside of this universe. It is a different realm and is unseen to us now but close too. Angels watch us right now as we type at the computer. They are in the unseen spiritual realm, and sometimes they can appear in our earthly realm. And just like the Garden of Eden, it has air, water, trees, everything we read in Rev 21-22. One day it will be visible and will set down on the Earth. This is proof enough to me that a human could survive and thrive in Heaven.

I mean we will have real, material bodies in the Heavenly city. That's what a resurrection body is all about! We will have flesh and bones, be able to eat, work, play, fellowship and see God! If we believe we will be spirits floating around on clouds with harps, we have lost the true picture of what Heaven will be like. No wonder people love this world so much, nobody wants to go to a place where it is just one long, boring Church service.

This would not be a normal thing, but an exception that God allows in order to fulfill His word. You need to read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. It changed my viewpoint on what Heaven will be like.

50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.” 5Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.

 

[ZNP]

Who or what would dare to not allow you to click "I agree"?

If the post entertains you, feel free to laugh as loud and long as you wish.

Then provide Scripture to disprove my "intricately constructed Biblical interpretation".

That could be difficult, since you agree that the interpretation is Biblical.

No, I agreed with your post. There were other posts not by you that I thought were funny. I didn't see any reason to treat them as serious until I learned from the moderator that I had hurt their feelings by clicking it was funny. I feel terrible, I shouldn't have laughed.

 

[Running2win]

No, I agreed with your post. There were other posts not by you that I thought were funny. I didn't see any reason to treat them as serious until I learned from the moderator that I had hurt their feelings by clicking it was funny. I feel terrible, I shouldn't have laughed.

Hard to judge how to take a post sometimes.

 

[Jamdoc]

Nice points, and it looks like you are pre-wrath too! But we must remember, as far as being "raptured", it means to take/snatch upward (in the clouds). It is a mistake to think anything like the rapture Paul described has ever taken place.

If you compare 1st Cor. 15, we get a new body when the rapture takes place and it cannot die. So that means there is a contradiction in the word of God, or our interpretation is wrong.

Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again- if they got a new immortal body. It says Elijah was taken into Heaven by a chariot-by angels. This could be how Enoch went too, it don't say.

Angels carry our souls to Heaven when we die and do the harvesting when Jesus comes back. They are our "ride", and it's going to be cool! I believe the "horses" we are riding on are these angels (cherubs), in Rev 19. Notice in second coming context in Psalm 18, what Jesus rides on, so...

7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.

8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.

9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.

10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

13The LORD also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

So, as far as the two witnesses, it could be them or Moses (my pick)-because he was on the mount of transfiguration, and he does represent the law with Elijah representing the prophets. Elijah is one of them for sure-Jesus said so.

We are appointed to die once and then face the judgment-they are linked in the passage. Does that mean we could not die and then God raise us up without changing us if He wanted- like Laz, and the young girl in Luke 8. They died twice as far as we know, and my wife is a nurse in the ICU and has seen plenty of people die for a short time and come back. If you are right about only dying once, then Enoch and Elijah are it, but they never got a resurrection body, this we can know for certain.

We must remember, as true born again Christians we have passed from death unto life, and our sin has already been judged on the cross. Our works await judgment-which will happen after the resurrection. The unsaved will be raised and judged only on the merits of their works, and none of them are righteous enough to pass Gods judgement.

The 24 elders would have be those raised after Jesus was raised and would be the "wave " offering of grain along with Jesus who is the first fruits. They would have new bodies, and are shown as such in Rev. All this is rooted in the appointed feasts the Lord gave Israel. Jesus will fulfill all the feasts, the feast of trumpets is next.

Who knows what deception will happen in the coming years? If we believe Jesus, believe the word, and trust what He taught us in the Olivet Discourse, we cannot be deceived. He told us before. Who are we going to believe is the question I ask to everyone?




Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Correct in the sense of what Paul was talking about that's never happened before but we do have biblical examples of people ascending to Heaven without dying in Enoch and Elijah. When I read about Enoch I always just thought.. that seems so random, but God doesn't do things in vain, so.. that's why he's my choice... also I think he would be the one to explain about the depravity of the world before the flood.

as far as NEAR death experiences I don't put a lot of stock into them, because Hebrews 9:27. I don't think God just lets people die over and over. Some people will be blessed to never die at all, and be raptured, which I believe happens at the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and everyone is mourning on the earth. Those in Christ will rise to be with Him, those on the earth will be subject to the wrath of God. There's the rapture, the annointing of the 144000, and then destruction comes.

I was taught pretrib when I was young but it never felt right, you know, the spirit just rejected it, and as I read the bible myself I realized why, because Jesus told us that we'd experience persecution for His name's sake Matthew 24:9. Being raptured away early to not experience that testing furnace just seemed unbiblical.
Then Revelation 6 and 7 2 things stood out, #1, the darkening of the sun and moon just like Jesus describes in the Gospels, and #2, in Revelation 7:9 there is suddenly a great multitude of people of all nations and tongues, standing before the throne of God praising Him. The 24 elders didn't know who they were and they asked John "who are these people?" John told them he DID know them in Revelation 7:14, where the Elder realized who they were they were they which came out of great tribulation.
It all clicked, in ways that no other rapture position did. It was consistent with scripture, it was consistent with how God lets bad things happen to us when evil people use their free will to harm us. Following Christ was never supposed to be easy, it was never supposed to be free of tribulation. My spirit accepted it, and it turned me to understand that I would need to condition myself to endure.

Somewhere I believe that pre tribbers also feel this they just don't want to admit it because it WILL be a horrible time they have to endure. I watched a Michael Pearl video just last night about how to be prepared and he would talk about the tribulation but always have to step in and try to qualify for himself "I think we won't have to go through it", okay so why are you preparing yourself to endure it?
It seems like wishful thinking to me, you don't WANT to experience the Great Tribulations so you try to hash together a way that you won't experience them (short of dying before them). They can't justify a pre trib rapture position with scripture alone, they have to take things like "well in a Jewish wedding..." or "in this Jewish feast.." all cultural references rather than scriptural references.

Post Trib I can understand but the main problem (and also a problem with pre trib) is understanding that the wrath of God is separate from the tribulations. The tribulations are caused by men, not God. It's persecution of Christians by men, God allows that to happen, God ordains the evil for the purpose of ultimately fulfilling good. But the trumpets and vials, THAT God has not appointed for us. Post trib correctly sees us goting through Tribulation, they just miss the part in the 6th seal and Revelation 7 to realize oh, the saints have been pulled out just before the trumpets start.
Pre wrath it just takes scripture and scripture alone, comparing scripture with scripture.. and you arrive at that position, without wishful thinking, without trying to justify with outside sources.
I believe it because that is what scripture says.

 

[Timtofly]

The text says Christ opened the seals one at a time, and then John was told... "Come and see."
John then recorded what he was shown, by writing the Book of Revelation.

That does not mean the events John was shown have already happened.

However, the seals were opened by Christ during the first century.

If the seals were opened, then the church is already complete. Which is it? You cannot say the church exist today, if the seals have been opened. Jesus Christ is not currently in Jerusalem. I am to believe that for 1900 years, there was just a blank time space? The church was complete in the 1st century? We have been on hold since then? It is not biblical nor logical to say the seals have been one long nondescript event. It may be reasonable because some refuse to accept that God did allow John directly to witness current events. Revelation 1:10-11
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John tells us that he was taken in the Spirit. His body by the Spirit was moved to the time of the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the last Millennium. He was to witness and then write a book that had 7 copies. It was not a prophecy. It was not a vision. It was the literal view of the end. Some chapters are written in symbolic words about events over the history of the church. Some chapters are literal events, but Christ is given applicable names for those events. John uses alliteration, in places. It is a complex book, but it is not just symbolism. Literal events do not need symbols, nor do they need to be applied as symbolism, where they do not fit. That is called historism. Any one can make words fit history.

Some may even accuse me of calling the Lord's Day something it is not. But you cannot pick and choose what time is or is not a Lord's Day. Any time I see the Lord's Day, I choose not to be ignorant and accept in heaven, it is a day, on earth it is 1000 years. Since John is a witness to a particular Lord's Day and even gave the length in Revelation 20 as 1000 years, I can only assume John knows what he is talking about. He did not cover the 2000 years of the church age. He covered the Lord's Day, when Christ would literally reign on earth. The church from the 1st century already understood the kingdom was spiritual. They did not know how long a spiritual church would be on earth. Nor does John say. John only recorded the events leading up to and about the Lord's Day. The church age is not the Lord's Day.

Each church was given a warning specific to each church. That was a vision about those churches. From chapter 4, John is witnessing the Lord's Day. But John was there on the Lord's Day from chapter 1.

 

[Jamdoc]

"God promised us tribulation in this world"
yes, but what he said is we would face tribulation from the world.
The 7 year tribulation is the world facing tribulation from God. Christians are spared that.

That's where you're wrong. The Great Tribulation is a period of men led by the Antichrist persecuting Christians. Those who do not worship the world leader (the beast) will be killed. That's by the hand of men, that's Satan and his antichrist. after the 7th seal is when the wrath of God begins. The saints are pulled out before that after the 6th seal.

Seal 1/White Horse: Conquest, 2 ways this can be, a conqueror who does so by annexing other countries, because violence/world war is the 2nd horseman not the first, OR it can be a disease, that conquers the world without war, I actually lean towards this second possibility. The coronavirus has opened my eyes to this possibility, seeing the way the world reacts to a pandemic. I don't necessarily think that this coronavirus is the white horseman, but I do think a coronavirus that is far more deadly may be the white horseman, as Coronavirus is named for its appearance of having a corona, which means "crown" and a crown was given unto him, maybe a mutant strain deriving from this one. If so, praise the Lord that Jesus will return to us soon.
Seal 2/Red Horse: Violence, most likely a world war, but in general peace being taken from the earth, it could just be civil unrest, but it'd need to be violent and people being killed in great numbers, worldwide.
Seal 3/Black Horse: Economic collapse and famine
Seal 4/Pale Horse: the death tallies from all these events that total 1/4 of the world's population, including some increase in animal attacks.
Seal 5/Martyred saints start appearing: THIS is where you really see the great tribulations, people killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ, and John describes them as souls, He knows they are not whole people but just their spirits.
Seal 6/Sun and Moon Darken, Matthew 24 describes the same event as the gathering of the elect. This is the rapture.
Seal 7/God's Wrath begins.

 

[BABerean2]

If the seals were opened, then the church is already complete.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


.

 

[Jamdoc]

Ahh, I get it. This interpretation is strongly influenced by Hollywood.

Nah you missed something. What he's saying is that Satan has been influencing the world to fight against Jesus when He eventually comes back, there's a ton of movies about the world being invaded from space. So when Jesus returns, that is how the world will perceive it; an invasion.

 

[Timtofly]

Correct in the sense of what Paul was talking about that's never happened before but we do have biblical examples of people ascending to Heaven without dying in Enoch and Elijah. When I read about Enoch I always just thought.. that seems so random, but God doesn't do things in vain, so.. that's why he's my choice... also I think he would be the one to explain about the depravity of the world before the flood.

as far as NEAR death experiences I don't put a lot of stock into them, because Hebrews 9:27. I don't think God just lets people die over and over. Some people will be blessed to never die at all, and be raptured, which I believe happens at the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and everyone is mourning on the earth. Those in Christ will rise to be with Him, those on the earth will be subject to the wrath of God. There's the rapture, the annointing of the 144000, and then destruction comes.

I was taught pretrib when I was young but it never felt right, you know, the spirit just rejected it, and as I read the bible myself I realized why, because Jesus told us that we'd experience persecution for His name's sake Matthew 24:9. Being raptured away early to not experience that testing furnace just seemed unbiblical.
Then Revelation 6 and 7 2 things stood out, #1, the darkening of the sun and moon just like Jesus describes in the Gospels, and #2, in Revelation 7:9 there is suddenly a great multitude of people of all nations and tongues, standing before the throne of God praising Him. The 24 elders didn't know who they were and they asked John "who are these people?" John told them he DID know them in Revelation 7:14, where the Elder realized who they were they were they which came out of great tribulation.
It all clicked, in ways that no other rapture position did. It was consistent with scripture, it was consistent with how God lets bad things happen to us when evil people use their free will to harm us. Following Christ was never supposed to be easy, it was never supposed to be free of tribulation. My spirit accepted it, and it turned me to understand that I would need to condition myself to endure.

Somewhere I believe that pre tribbers also feel this they just don't want to admit it because it WILL be a horrible time they have to endure. I watched a Michael Pearl video just last night about how to be prepared and he would talk about the tribulation but always have to step in and try to qualify for himself "I think we won't have to go through it", okay so why are you preparing yourself to endure it?
It seems like wishful thinking to me, you don't WANT to experience the Great Tribulations so you try to hash together a way that you won't experience them (short of dying before them). They can't justify a pre trib rapture position with scripture alone, they have to take things like "well in a Jewish wedding..." or "in this Jewish feast.." all cultural references rather than scriptural references.

Post Trib I can understand but the main problem (and also a problem with pre trib) is understanding that the wrath of God is separate from the tribulations. The tribulations are caused by men, not God. It's persecution of Christians by men, God allows that to happen, God ordains the evil for the purpose of ultimately fulfilling good. But the trumpets and vials, THAT God has not appointed for us. Post trib correctly sees us goting through Tribulation, they just miss the part in the 6th seal and Revelation 7 to realize oh, the saints have been pulled out just before the trumpets start.
Pre wrath it just takes scripture and scripture alone, comparing scripture with scripture.. and you arrive at that position, without wishful thinking, without trying to justify with outside sources.
I believe it because that is what scripture says.

If Christians reject the rapture because it is an escape, they are too comfortable in their lives. They should move to countries where they behead Christians, to remain consistent in their false teachings. I am sure there are Christians who have lost loved ones to a martyr's death, who would be willing to change places. Or not, some Christians live for God, not the riches of this world. This "escape" view of the rapture is evil and from Satan. Not all Christians on earth even live close to what poverty is in some God blessed nations. People should really think about what they say these days. God will use their words and theology against them in judgment. We are in the trib, so pre trib is out of the picture any ways. If some think 2020 was a normal, human planned year, they are missing out on God’s timing of God's Will. The whole year will be God's plan changing everything around just as God willed, and John recorded in Revelation 6.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The church is not complete. Revelation is about death and dying. The church a "martyr". The white horse is not a good victory. It is an end to life as we know it. It is a sign that the church has fallen into apostasy, the great falling away. The church is dead, the world is wicked. It will never go back to normal ever.

 

[Running2win]

Interesting series of posts here. I'm of the opinion that the Beast empire will be a revised Muslim Caliphate. While the whole world is worrying about covid19, listen to this guy that is tracking things in Turkey, and what their prez is saying. The Caliphate/Beast will arise again with the head being Turkey. They have the biggest army in that area. Joel Richardson has free resources is anyone wants more info on this.

Resources - Joel's Trumpet

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt

 

[BABerean2]

The church is not complete. Revelation is about death and dying. The church a "martyr". The white horse is not a good victory. It is an end to life as we know it. It is a sign that the church has fallen into apostasy, the great falling away. The church is dead, the world is wicked. It will never go back to normal ever.

I never said the church is complete.

I said Christ opened the seals during the first century, and showed John what was under the seals. John then recorded what he saw.

.

 

[Jamdoc]

If Christians reject the rapture because it is an escape, they are too comfortable in their lives. They should move to countries where they behead Christians, to remain consistent in their false teachings. I am sure there are Christians who have lost loved ones to a martyr's death, who would be willing to change places. Or not, some Christians live for God, not the riches of this world. This "escape" view of the rapture is evil and from Satan. Not all Christians on earth even live close to what poverty is in some God blessed nations. People should really think about what they say these days. God will use their words and theology against them in judgment. We are in the trib, so pre trib is out of the picture any ways. If some think 2020 was a normal, human planned year, they are missing out on God’s timing of God's Will. The whole year will be God's plan changing everything around just as God willed, and John recorded in Revelation 6.

You get me wrong, there is a rapture. If you read Revelation you will see it come after the martyrs but before the wrath of God.

Where IN SCRIPTURE ALONE is the rapture said to take place before the great tribulation?
Scripture shows multiple times when the gathering of the elect takes place after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
Revelation 7:14 "they which came out of great tribulation"

Don't separate people "oh well those are the Tribulation saints but not us!" Instead separate the tribulations from the wrath of God and understand that they are 2 different things. The wrath of God comes AFTER the tribulations.

Note that if there was a pre trib rapture, there would be nobody on the earth to preach the gospel these so called Tribulation saints. How do they convert with nobody to preach? Romans 10:11-17.
The 144000 come after the 6th seal but before the 7th seal.
Do you see how neatly this all lines up?
The four horsemen, the great tribulations, then the rapture, the 144,000 sealed that preach the word of God to REPLACE the saints who were raptured. They take over, and they are protected from the wrath of God, that is why the Angel tells the other angels to wait until they are sealed to hurt the earth Revelation 7:3. Then the wrath of God comes.

 

[Jamdoc]

Interesting series of posts here. I'm of the opinion that the Beast empire will be a revised Muslim Caliphate. While the whole world is worrying about covid19, listen to this guy that is tracking things in Turkey, and what their prez is saying. The Caliphate/Beast will arise again with the head being Turkey. They have the biggest army in that area. Joel Richardson has free resources is anyone wants more info on this.

Resources - Joel's Trumpet

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt

I have a... darker idea of how the beast will work, though islam is involved.

 

[Running2win]

I have a... darker idea of how the beast will work, though islam is involved.

Pretty please?

 

[Running2win]

Correct in the sense of what Paul was talking about that's never happened before but we do have biblical examples of people ascending to Heaven without dying in Enoch and Elijah. When I read about Enoch I always just thought.. that seems so random, but God doesn't do things in vain, so.. that's why he's my choice... also I think he would be the one to explain about the depravity of the world before the flood.

as far as NEAR death experiences I don't put a lot of stock into them, because Hebrews 9:27. I don't think God just lets people die over and over. Some people will be blessed to never die at all, and be raptured, which I believe happens at the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and everyone is mourning on the earth. Those in Christ will rise to be with Him, those on the earth will be subject to the wrath of God. There's the rapture, the annointing of the 144000, and then destruction comes.

I was taught pretrib when I was young but it never felt right, you know, the spirit just rejected it, and as I read the bible myself I realized why, because Jesus told us that we'd experience persecution for His name's sake Matthew 24:9. Being raptured away early to not experience that testing furnace just seemed unbiblical.
Then Revelation 6 and 7 2 things stood out, #1, the darkening of the sun and moon just like Jesus describes in the Gospels, and #2, in Revelation 7:9 there is suddenly a great multitude of people of all nations and tongues, standing before the throne of God praising Him. The 24 elders didn't know who they were and they asked John "who are these people?" John told them he DID know them in Revelation 7:14, where the Elder realized who they were they were they which came out of great tribulation.
It all clicked, in ways that no other rapture position did. It was consistent with scripture, it was consistent with how God lets bad things happen to us when evil people use their free will to harm us. Following Christ was never supposed to be easy, it was never supposed to be free of tribulation. My spirit accepted it, and it turned me to understand that I would need to condition myself to endure.

Somewhere I believe that pre tribbers also feel this they just don't want to admit it because it WILL be a horrible time they have to endure. I watched a Michael Pearl video just last night about how to be prepared and he would talk about the tribulation but always have to step in and try to qualify for himself "I think we won't have to go through it", okay so why are you preparing yourself to endure it?
It seems like wishful thinking to me, you don't WANT to experience the Great Tribulations so you try to hash together a way that you won't experience them (short of dying before them). They can't justify a pre trib rapture position with scripture alone, they have to take things like "well in a Jewish wedding..." or "in this Jewish feast.." all cultural references rather than scriptural references.

Post Trib I can understand but the main problem (and also a problem with pre trib) is understanding that the wrath of God is separate from the tribulations. The tribulations are caused by men, not God. It's persecution of Christians by men, God allows that to happen, God ordains the evil for the purpose of ultimately fulfilling good. But the trumpets and vials, THAT God has not appointed for us. Post trib correctly sees us goting through Tribulation, they just miss the part in the 6th seal and Revelation 7 to realize oh, the saints have been pulled out just before the trumpets start.
Pre wrath it just takes scripture and scripture alone, comparing scripture with scripture.. and you arrive at that position, without wishful thinking, without trying to justify with outside sources.
I believe it because that is what scripture says.

Yeah, does it for me too. It's clear in the examples of Sodom, and Noah- that Jesus taught, we will not be protected from Gods wrath, but rescued from it. Out the the sphere of judgment is the only logical way to interpret the two examples. This is what made me question Post Trib the most.

 

[Timtofly]

You get me wrong, there is a rapture. If you read Revelation you will see it come after the martyrs but before the wrath of God.

Where IN SCRIPTURE ALONE is the rapture said to take place before the great tribulation?
Scripture shows multiple times when the gathering of the elect takes place after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
Revelation 7:14 "they which came out of great tribulation"

Don't separate people "oh well those are the Tribulation saints but not us!" Instead separate the tribulations from the wrath of God and understand that they are 2 different things. The wrath of God comes AFTER the tribulations.

Note that if there was a pre trib rapture, there would be nobody on the earth to preach the gospel these so called Tribulation saints. How do they convert with nobody to preach? Romans 10:11-17.
The 144000 come after the 6th seal but before the 7th seal.
Do you see how neatly this all lines up?
The four horsemen, the great tribulations, then the rapture, the 144,000 sealed that preach the word of God to REPLACE the saints who were raptured. They take over, and they are protected from the wrath of God, that is why the Angel tells the other angels to wait until they are sealed to hurt the earth Revelation 7:3. Then the wrath of God comes.

Have you ever posted the rapture was an escape?

The tribulation in Revelation is not about the church. The seals are opened up after the tribulation of the church. I see some claim they happened before the church was even persecuted in the first century. Some claim it happened even before any of the New Testament was written. The seals end the church age. They do not start nor open any place, except at the end. Now they are being opened. It is the end of the church age.

Yes, the church will be in tribulation until the very end. People have been martyred this year. Because a verse reads one way, do we interpret it to say only martyrs are Christians? If a person does not suffer tribulation nor killed for their testimony, does that mean they are not in Christ?

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you ever posted the rapture was an escape?

The tribulation in Revelation is not about the church. The seals are opened up after the tribulation of the church. I see some claim they happened before the church was even persecuted in the first century. Some claim it happened even before any of the New Testament was written. The seals end the church age. They do not start nor open any place, except at the end. Now they are being opened. It is the end of the church age.

Yes, the church will be in tribulation until the very end. People have been martyred this year. Because a verse reads one way, do we interpret it to say only martyrs are Christians? If a person does not suffer tribulation nor killed for their testimony, does that mean they are not in Christ?

In a sense it is an escape, but not from persecution by men but He won't turn His own hand against us. 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Seeing the rapture in Revelation 6:12-13 and evidenced by the saints in heaven in Revelation 7, we're not here for the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath, aside from the 144,000, but they are specifically protected.
So yes, we may suffer, we may be martyred, beheaded, starved, beaten, because it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:. However, we won't be stung by locusts that have stings that cause excruciating agony for 5 months, we won't be gnawing our tongues in pain, we won't be seeking death and unable to find it, we won't be crushed by 60 pound hailstones.
God be praised for that. We may suffer tribulation but God will be our avenger.