Undecided in eschatology

[DavidPT]

Still, I'm not Premil because I don't believe the new heavens and new earth follows only a thousand years after the return of Christ. I now believe that both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time. It's a very unique view and does not "sit well" with most Christians, because it means that the close of the thousand years is the final test of the (now resurrected) sons of Adam who like Adam have had the right to eat of the tree of life and like with Adam in the garden of Eden, the time came when God allowed Satan to test mankind.

If you place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, that technically makes you Premil, though. To be Premil doesn't mean one has to agree with other Premils about everything. As to your position here--both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time--that's been my view for sometime now since I don't see it making sense that the thousand years fit this age, nor do I see it making sense that the return of Christ does not usher in the NHNE at that time. The only way you can technically not be Premil is if you think both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth are involving the here and now before Christ returns, rather than after He returns.


If you have some extra time on hand in the future, I think you should start a thread regarding your view here. I'm interested in learning more about what you proposed in the final paragraph in your post I'm addressing. Who knows, maybe I might even end up agreeing with you about some of or maybe even all of it.

 

[5thKingdom]

As to your position here--both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time--that's been my view for sometime now since I don't see it making sense that the thousand years fit this age,

It is unfortunate that you INSIST the 1000 years are literal.
You will never find truth with that assumption.

During the 1000 years Satan is "bound"...
you imagine the "new heavens and earth" commence when Satan is "bound"...
not understanding that Satan is "bound" at the Cross.

You imagine AFTER Satan is released there is a Fourth Beast...
the Revelation Beast... the Great Tribulation... the RULE of the Anti-Christ...

Of course that contradicts everything the Bible teaches about the Fourth Kingdom.
Your eschatology is very confused.

The reality is simple

The Saints "lived and ruled with Christ" DURING the A-Millennial Christian Kingdom of the Church Age.
AFTER the "End of the Age" [Mat 28] AFTER all the Saints are "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]
THEN and only then can the Fourth Beast arise.

When you INSIST the 1000 years are literal,
then you have gone OUTSIDE of what the Bible teaches
and you will NEVER be able to harmonize ALL RELATED passages.
It really is as simple as that.

/

 

[DavidPT]

It is unfortunate that you INSIST the 1000 years are literal.
You will never find truth with that assumption.

One reason I take the thousand years as literal years is because all throughout the Bible, unless one can prove otherwise, every time a cardinal number is followed by years, it is always meaning the literal amount specified. And since a thousand is also a cardinal number, and that when it too is followed by years, the same should be true of it as well. Why would that be the pattern throughout both testaments when involving all other cardinal numbers followed by years, but that this doesn't also apply to a thousand when it is followed by years?

Which means, if the thousand years are a literal thousand years, there goes Amil out the window since Amil for certain can't work in that case. The same wouldn't be true of Premil though, assuming the thousand years weren't literal years. Premil would still work, regardless. Therefore, I find it interesting that Premil still works whether the thousand years are literal or not, and that Amil only works if they aren't literal years. By literal years I'm meaning a literal thousand years.

 

[5thKingdom]

One reason I take the thousand years as literal years is because all throughout the Bible, unless one can prove otherwise, every time a cardinal number is followed by years, it is always meaning the literal amount specified. And since a thousand is also a cardinal number, and that when it too is followed by years, the same should be true of it as well. Why would that be the pattern throughout both testaments when involving all other cardinal numbers followed by years, but that this doesn't also apply to a thousand when it is followed by years?

I will have to consider this, test it against Scripture.
And there must be SEVERAL examples to support your theory...
care to cite a few examples?

Which means, if the thousand years are a literal thousand years, there goes Amil out the window since Amil for certain can't work in that case. The same wouldn't be true of Premil though, assuming the thousand years weren't literal years. Premil would still work, regardless. Therefore, I find it interesting that Premil still works whether the thousand years are literal or not, and that Amil only works if they aren't literal years. By literal years I'm meaning a literal thousand years.

No doubt about that.
If the 1000 years is literal then the A-Millennial position is already false.
The Church Age has lasted about 2000 years.

However, are you aware that the A-Millennial position is the "traditional" understanding
and the position taught by the Apostles?

(1) There can be no doubt the Apostles taught the Lord's Return would happen
AFTER a great "falling away"... and the "Man of Sin" would be revealed.
But... does that happen in the Third Beast or the Fourth Beast?
This understanding is critical to find Truth.


And the Bible PROMISES the truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast / the Great Tribulation
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints... until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the "Time-of-the-End". In other words... the Bible PROMISES all "interpretations"
before the "Time-of-the-End" MUST BE WRONG because they were developed
when the TRUTH remained "closed-up" and "sealed".


Therefore... we can know absolutely that any "interpretation" about the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation
developed 100 - 200 - 500 years ago MUST BE WRONG... when was YOUR "interpretation" developed...
(about 500 years ago)... or do you simply REJECT what the Bible says in Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10?
This is a critical question. Answer carefully. You are not REJECTING my words...
you would be REJECTING the clear teaching of the Word of God.



(2) What you need to consider is whether the "Little Horn", the "False Prophet" and the "Man of Sin"
all occur during the FOURTH BEAST... the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation.
So the QUESTION you need to answer is WHAT was the THIRD BEAST?

If you cannot DEFINE the Third Beast and the Fourth Beast
then you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on WHAT they were
or WHAT events happen during their "Kingdom".

Clearly the Bible teaches the "Little Horn" and "False Prophet" and "Man of Sin"
happen during the FOURTH BEAST. So this is a critical question to answer.



(3) If the Church Age was the Third Beast (and I can show Scripture proving that)
then the A-Millennial position is PROVEN by the existence of a Fourth Beast
AFTER the end of the Great Commission of the Church Age.

Said another way...
If the THIRD BEAST is the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
(we know it's the 3rd because it came after the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom and after the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom)

If the THIRD BEAST is the Christian "Kingdom" then the FOURTH BEAST (the LAST Beast before the Eternal Kingdom)
PROVES that Rev 20 is NOT talking about LITERAL years. Because you have to account for 1000 year of Satan being "bound"
(what happens on earth then?) and you must account for what happens AFTER Satan is released. What happens on earth then?
Tell me WHERE in your scenario (developed when the Truth was "closed-up" and "sealed"... where does Christ Return?



(4) Along those lines:
In your "interpretation" (developed while the Truth was "closed-up" and "sealed")
what is the chronology of the end?

The Church Age started about 2000 years ago...
what happens AFTER the Church Age?

If the 1000 years happen AFTER the Church Age...
then what happens DURING Satan being "bound"... chapter and verse please...
and what happens AFTER Satan is released?... again, I need chapter and verse.

I bet your answer to this question can (easily) be dis-proven by Scripture.

I must say... I am enjoying this discussion.
Do not be frustrated by not understanding everything I say... I am covering a lot of ground
with the FOURTH BEAST. I am enjoying the discussion and encourage you to ask questions
rather than simply ignoring or discounting what I have said. I am prepared to prove Scripture
for everything I say... everything.

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

One reason I take the thousand years as literal years is because all throughout the Bible, unless one can prove otherwise, every time a cardinal number is followed by years, it is always meaning the literal amount specified. And since a thousand is also a cardinal number, and that when it too is followed by years, the same should be true of it as well. Why would that be the pattern throughout both testaments when involving all other cardinal numbers followed by years, but that this doesn't also apply to a thousand when it is followed by years?

The immediate problem I have (before checking out your claim)
is that it's OBVIOUS that spiritual language is used in Rev 20...

Or do you believe the chains binding Satan are PHYSICAL chains?
Do you believe there was a PHYSICAL "seal" placed on Satan?
Do you believe there is a PHYSICAL "bottomless" Pit somewhere?

In order for the 1000 years to be Literal...
you must ignore all the SPIRITUAL language surrounding it.
We have no Biblical reason for doing such a thing.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Which means, if the thousand years are a literal thousand years, there goes Amil out the window since Amil for certain can't work in that case. The same wouldn't be true of Premil though, assuming the thousand years weren't literal years. Premil would still work, regardless. Therefore, I find it interesting that Premil still works whether the thousand years are literal or not, and that Amil only works if they aren't literal years. By literal years I'm meaning a literal thousand years.

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and THEY sat upon them [who are these people?],
and judgment was given unto them [what does this mean?]: and I saw the souls [not the bodies]
of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the Beast [the THIRD Beast or the FOURTH Beast... this is a critical question you MUST answer],
neither his image [you cannot DEFINE what the "image" represents... this does not lend support to your theories],
neither had received his mark [you cannot DEFINE what the "Mark" represents.... again, this questions your theory]
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


When in your scenario do the Saints "live and reign with Christ"?
Is it in the THIRD Beast, the FOURTH Beast...
or some other period of time?
You MUST have an answer.


Secondly... WHO are these people?
Are they not the SAME PEOPLE who are alive BEFORE Satan's "Little Season" (during the 1000 years)?
Notice Satan's "Little Season" is referred to in verse 11... this event happens BEFORE Satan's "Little Season"...
WHILE Satan is "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. How do you account for that?


Rev 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw UNDER the altar THE SOULS [not the bodies]
of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [during which Beast?]
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them [before or after the Great Tribulation?];
and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a LITTLE SEASON, until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [When in time are these "fellowservants" killed?]


Jim

 

[DavidPT]

I will have to consider this, test it against Scripture.
And there must be SEVERAL examples to support your theory...
care to cite a few examples?

Here are some random examples from both testaments.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Genesis 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.


Genesis 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.


Genesis 41:53 And the seven years of plenteousness, that was in the land of Egypt, were ended.


Leviticus 25:3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

Deuteronomy 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Joshua 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.


2 Kings 8:2 And the woman arose, and did after the saying of the man of God: and she went with her household, and sojourned in the land of the Philistines seven years.


2 Kings 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 20:31 And Jehoshaphat reigned over Judah: he was thirty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Azubah the daughter of Shilhi.

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;


Jeremiah 52:1 Zedekiah was one and twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.


Zechariah 7:5 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?


Mark 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?


Acts 9:33 And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

 

[DavidPT]

Clearly the Bible teaches the "Little Horn" and "False Prophet" and "Man of Sin"
happen during the FOURTH BEAST. So this is a critical question to answer.

I for certain agree with this. As to this 3rd beast, the issue I have is you applying it to the time of the martyrs per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast. In order for you to be correct, you first have to show that there was an image to worship or not worship, that there was a mark upon the foreheads, or in the hands, to take or refuse to take, before that of the time of the 4th beast. The only place I know of in the Bible that mentions things like that in particular, is Revelation 13. Except all of that is involving the time of the 4th beast. Therefore, I find it unreasonable that when the saints per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast, nor his image, that their martyrdom did not occur during the era of time Revelation 13 is involving.

And if it does occur during the era of time Revelation 13 involves, though I realize you disagree, but let's assume you changed your mind eventually and agreed instead, what then? Can Amil still work?

 

[Zao is life]

I for certain agree with this. As to this 3rd beast, the issue I have is you applying it to the time of the martyrs per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast. In order for you to be correct, you first have to show that there was an image to worship or not worship, that there was a mark upon the foreheads, or in the hands, to take or refuse to take, before that of the time of the 4th beast. The only place I know of in the Bible that mentions things like that in particular, is Revelation 13. Except all of that is involving the time of the 4th beast. Therefore, I find it unreasonable that when the saints per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast, nor his image, that their martyrdom did not occur during the era of time Revelation 13 is involving.

And if it does occur during the era of time Revelation 13 involves, though I realize you disagree, but let's assume you changed your mind eventually and agreed instead, what then? Can Amil still work?

When I present SCRIPTURE and you reject that Scripture (like Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-100
then you are not REJECTING my comments... you are REJECTING Scripture.

@5thKingdom

First, you need to abandon the false idea that your understanding of the prophetic Word, as given by the apostles in the New Testament, and as given by Jesus in His Revelation, and in other statements and parables that Jesus uttered, is 100% correct at all times,

and you may also abandon the false idea that anyone who disagrees with anything you say is "rejecting scripture".

You are not the Holy Spirit and your human mind is as fallible as mine and anyone else's.

There are two separate times in the book of Daniel that the word "abomination" is associated with the temple of God, and there is a major difference between the two:

1. The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, rededicated, and reconsecrated to God.

2. The abominations (plural) that were committed in Daniel 9:27 would result in the destruction of the temple.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the biblical type of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:4:

The Type: Antiochus IV Epiphanes

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done.

37 He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.

The anti-type: The man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; but because A4E is also the biblical type of the man of sin, Daniel Chapter 12 also projects forward to the time of the end, and is also the first part of the prophecy which is complemented (completed) by Jesus in Revelation Chapter 10:

Daniel 12:7-9:
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

Revelation 10:4-7:
4 And when the seven thunders spoke their sounds, I was about to write. And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Seal up what things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write these things.
5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven,
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

In Daniel Chapter 12, the final 3.5 years is mentioned. In Revelation Chapter 10 the final 3.5 years has now passed, and the 7th trumpet is about to sound. Revelation chapter 10 complements Daniel chapter 12.

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and HE had the final say on all these matters. The sealed mystery referred to in Daniel 12:9 will only be unsealed when the 7th trumpet is about to sound - ACCORDING TO JESUS.

@DavidPT

I agree with everything you say regarding this. There are no chapter divisions in the Revelation (they were only inserted in 1227 A.D), and people being killed for refusing to worship the beast (or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name) is mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4). This makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation Chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of the beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

Applying Revelation 20:4-6 to any saints who were not beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast will never suffice for those who refuse to add another meaning to scripture that is not implied in the text.

Besides this, the beheading of any saint/s is only mentioned twice in the New Testament (Mark 6:16 and Revelation 20:4-6), and each time, for any saint to be seen living (záō) after their having been beheaded, is associated with their bodily resurrection (anastasis).

And since the word zao is never used anywhere in the multitude of New Testament verses where the word is found in reference to anything except people alive in their bodies, and since the word anastasis (plus all the other words associated with the resurrection in the New Testament) likewise is never used in reference to anything except bodily resurrection, one has to be willfully blind and in denial of scripture to place Revelation 20:4-6 before the beast that caused their beheading had even risen from the abyss.

One also has to be willfully blind to the fact that there is no mention of the binding of Satan in Revelation chapters 12-13.

And since Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world", and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ),

and since Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age,

and since Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7),

and since:

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired,

since all these things are the case, the only way someone can claim that Satan is already bound, is through sheer conjecture and mentally adding to the words "bound him a thousands years" the words [bound only in the sense that he is unable to prevent the spread of the gospel and deceive the nations so as to gather them to battle against the camp of the saints].

Amillennialism is mental addition to the Revelation in order to take away from the meaning, i.e adding a different meaning to scripture in order to take away from scripture - which is what Eve did in the garden of Eden and the church/elect of God of whom she is the mother (being the mother of all living and the wife of Adam, the son of God), has done so ever since.

The forth beast of Daniel is the same one that is destroyed by Christ. It's the same as the beast of Revelation 13. No matter how anyone spins it.

 

[Zao is life]

If you place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, that technically makes you Premil, though. To be Premil doesn't mean one has to agree with other Premils about everything. As to your position here--both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time--that's been my view for sometime now since I don't see it making sense that the thousand years fit this age, nor do I see it making sense that the return of Christ does not usher in the NHNE at that time. The only way you can technically not be Premil is if you think both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth are involving the here and now before Christ returns, rather than after He returns.


If you have some extra time on hand in the future, I think you should start a thread regarding your view here. I'm interested in learning more about what you proposed in the final paragraph in your post I'm addressing. Who knows, maybe I might even end up agreeing with you about some of or maybe even all of it.

I don't actually want to start a thread. Been there, done that a few times with regard to other topics, and my t-shirt always gets burned.

I would need to list the scriptures giving the reasons why I believe the NHNE follows the return of Christ. That may be a long post, so I will do that separately for you, if you like.

If the NHNE and the thousand years commence at the same time, then we should consider who exactly those are who will follow Satan's last rebellion, because by this time the beast and false prophet are already in the LOF, and the resurrection of all the saints who died in Christ has already occurred.

There is no death mentioned in Revelation 21 for those who are in New Jerusalem (in the NHNE) for at least a thousand years, "but the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

The second death is also mentioned in Revelation 20:

14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

So scripture teaches us that:-

1. Adam's death was the first death.
2. There will be a 2nd death, but there will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins, and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

The garden of Eden's sabbath was brought to a close by the fall of Adam. How long after Adam became a living soul when God breathed the Spirit of life into him did God permit Satan to test him? Also, how responsible was Adam for his sin, since:

1. He had been created in the image and likeness of God and God walked with him and talked with him in the garden; and

2. Adam received the command directly from God. Adam heard God Himself speak and say, ".. you will surely die." Why did he believe another Word which implied that God is a liar? (".. you will not surely die).

3. Adam could eat freely of the tree of life and live forever before his sin, before the first death came to man.

So Adam lost access to the tree of Life.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame."

Romans 11
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!
22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

So how long after Adam became a living soul when God breathed the Spirit of life into him did God permit Satan to test him?

We are not told how long, but we do know that it was during God's sabbath rest, and we do have this statement in scripture:

"For a thousand years in Your sight are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalms 90:4

"But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8.

The above statement in scripture does not prove anything, but it is something we can bear in mind.

There is no zao mentioned in the verses talking about the dead standing before the GWT, and no anastasis. In other words the dead are not said to have been alive in a body and then died, then resurrected before they stand before God at the GWT. This is in stark contrast to those who had been beheaded:

Revelation 20
5 And they lived [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. * This is the first resurrection [anástasis].
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection [anástasis]. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6).

* The words crossed out above (Revelation 20:5a) are listed as spurious by Tischendorf's Spurious Passages of the Greek New Testament because they do not appear in the Bible’s oldest Greek manuscript of the Revelation, the Codex Sinaiticus. Nor are they found in the oldest Aramaic manuscript, the Khabouris Codex, and only appear as notes in the margins of some other manuscripts (I'm only mentioning this as a statement of fact, I'm not making a statement about whether or not the sentence should be there).

It's noticeable that those whom John saw in Revelation 20:4-6 living after they had been beheaded for the Word of God and their testimony to Christ (and their refusal to worship the beast or his image), had been tested the way Adam was, and overcame, and it's also noticeable that these souls are the only people of whom it is said that the second death has no power over them - but the text of Revelation Chapter 20 is completely silent about all the other saints who will have part in the first resurrection, whom the New Testament tells us will be raised from the dead when Christ returns (i.e the resurrection in Christ, who IS the resurrection and the life).

So those who have been martyred and remained faithful till death have been tested, and have overcome. What about those who have died in Christ but have never been tested and yet will be raised with Christ at the last day?

If God allowed Adam to be tested while Adam was in the garden of Eden and partaking of the tree of life (and God did allow Adam to be tested), then it means that God allowed mankind to be tested - but not all individuals will have been tested - some who will rise from the dead at the last day (and who died in Christ) were martyred and tested and the 2nd death will have no power over them.

But there are others who will have never been tested.

What's good for one (Adam) is good for all, in my opinion, and God is always 100% fair and just. Not fair for the sons of Adam who have never been tested the way Adam was when he sinned, to receive the same blessings in eternity that those who were martyred will receive.

Jesus represents all mankind - but God will know who are the sons of the first man Adam who sinned and who are the sons of the last Adam who obeyed and gave up his life as a ransom for many. God already does know, but He is 100% just and each one will have the opportunity to prove by his actions ("works") whose son he is:

No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death. Revelation 12:11.

Revelation 2
10 Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

I do not believe that this means that we all have to be martyred for our faith to be tested - but we do need to be tested the way Adam was when the whole world is faced with a choice between worshiping the beast or worshiping the Christ at the close of this age, and between following Satan or remaining faithful at the close of the thousand years, in the case of those who had died in Christ without having ever been tested.

So I believe that there is reason to believe that if Adam was living forever and eating from the tree of life freely, but was capable of dying when he sinned, then death - the 2nd death mentioned at the close of Revelation 20 - is still possible, even post-anastasis. There is no zao or anastasis mentioned when the dead are standing before God at the GWT.

 

[DavidPT]

So I believe that there is reason to believe that if Adam was living forever and eating from the tree of life freely, but was capable of dying when he sinned, then death - the 2nd death mentioned at the close of Revelation 20 - is still possible, even post-anastasis. There is no zao or anastasis mentioned when the dead are standing before God at the GWT.

Your post over all, I think you could be on to something here the more I think about it. Some interpreters insist that Adam never ate from the tree of life while in the garden, but, that if he ate from it after he fell, he would have become an instant immortal. Yet, God never told Adam he was to not eat of the tree of life as well. He told Adam, all the trees in the garden, he can freely eat from, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was not to eat from. Because when he does, in the day he does he shall surely die. If we then factor in 2 Peter 3:8, and then note that Adam lived 930 years then died, that this indicates that in the day he ate of the forbidden tree, he then died in that same day, meaning within that thousand year day. And to this day, not one person has ever lived an entire thousand years.

Which could mean, though I realize that you disagree there will be any mortals living during the thousand years, that mortals get to live an entire thousand years and then some, meaning those remaining per Zechariah 14:16-19, then are tested at the end. And even though they lived an entire thousand years in a perfect world, they still rebelled in the end. Or it could be what you are proposing instead. I don't know yet since I haven't had time to fully consider what you are proposing.

Getting back to the tree of life. If one insists that if you eat of it just one time, that this makes you an instant immortal, why does Revelation 22 record that it is being consumed on a continual basis? Which then makes me think the tree of life is the link to immortality, but not instant immortality. Meaning, as long as one keeps eating from it, they continue to live, but take away access from it, one then eventually dies.

Those that have part in the LOF obviously have no access to the tree of life, which could be why it's called the 2nd death. Losing access to it caused the first death for everyone, IMO. Not having access to it after having been brought back from the first death, thus the resurrection of the dead, results in the 2nd death which there is no returning from. As you pointed out, there is no resurrection from the 2nd death. Which, BTW, the fact I debate Universalism from time to time, this alone proves that view is not Biblical. Because, in order for it to even be possibly Biblical it requires that there has to be a resurrection from the 2nd death, except there obviously isn't. Why anyone might think Universalism is Biblical to begin with, is beyond me. Yet, many apparently do. And IMO, this alone debunks that view, that there is no resurrection from the 2nd death.

 

[JulieB67]

The "first resurrection" is when we are "born again" or "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit.

Christ specifically tells us what the first resurrection is after his return. We are talking about two separate resurrections at that point. We are not talking about anything prior.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Would you say anyone is "ruling" with Christ at this time in the world?

And when do you place this event?

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

When will they sit upon twelve thrones, judging?

I place it here,

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"

Which coincides with this,


Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[DavidPT]

And when do you place this event?

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

When will they sit upon twelve thrones, judging?

I place it here,

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"

Which coincides with this,


Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Since it is obvious to a lot of us that Matthew 19:28 belongs during the era of time Matthew 25:31 is involving, this then means that there has to be a period of time following the 2nd coming but prior to when 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 are meaning. Unless one wants to argue that Matthew 19:28 is involving all of eternity, as if it makes sense, that once 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 are fullfilled, what is recorded in Matthew 19:28, it continues in that manner throughout eternity.

Amils simply have no Scriptures to support this extra time needed to fulfill certain events after that of the 2nd coming. Premils do. The Scriptures Premils have that support this extra time post the 2nd coming, Amils misapply those same Scriptures, and then apply them in a manner that makes nonsense of the text, rather than sense of the text.

 

[JulieB67]

is involving, this then means that there has to be a period of time following the 2nd coming but prior to when 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 are meaning. Unless one wants to argue that Matthew 19:28 is involving all of eternity, as if it makes sense, that once 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 are fullfilled, what is recorded in Matthew 19:28, it continues in that manner throughout eternity.

I believe so as well.

And the scripture is specific in that right now he is on the right hand of God but when he comes with his holy angels "then" he will sit upon the throne of his glory". It doesn't make sense to me that he would come with his angels, then he will sit upon the throne of glory and then immediately hand it over to our Father?

I try and take the bible as a whole. We are often told we rely completely on Revelation 20 but I try not to let one chapter dictate my beliefs. I will admit that I do ponder and study still on scriptures that have me puzzled within how they fit into certain time frames but I still see evidence within the scriptures that tell me there is a period of time following the 2nd coming.

And I will never believe Christians are co reigning/ruling at this point -far from it. And spreading the gospel is not ruling. Many are being turned off of Christianity right now. ( believing good is evil/evil is good so to speak) If anything we are going backwards. Reigning speaks of a higher purpose/position and that's not happening. Reign means to rule. And we can't change that definition into meaning something else to suit our beliefs.

 

[DavidPT]

It doesn't make sense to me that he would come with his angels, then he will sit upon the throne of glory and then immediately hand it over to our Father?

Exactly! And to add to that, it doesn't make sense, that the very same day He returns, those that are promised to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, they only get to do this for 24 hours or less. How can anyone possibly find that reasonable?

As to them judging the 12 tribes of Israel, I don't see that as meaning they are co judges with Christ at the great white throne judgment or something, which is what some Amils might be taking it to mean, but that I see meaning judging in the sense pertaining to what 1 Corinthians 6 is involving, as an example.


Or maybe even better yet, in the sense the following in the OT is meaning.

Deuteronomy 16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

But even if judging the 12 tribes of Isreal can't fit anything in 1 Corinthians 6 nor anything similar to Deuteronomy 16:18, I still can't see it fitting being co judges with Christ at the great white throne judgment. How does it make sense, the fact that judgment also involves judging people that are not a part of any of the 12 tribes, that these who sit upon twelve thrones, they judge those pertaining to the 12 tribes but no one else as well? It doesn't make sense, that being the point. And it doesn't make sense that they only judge the twelve tribes of Israel for 24 hours or less, then Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father so that God may be all in all.

What Amils are not grasping, and let's take Zechariah 14:16-19 as an example. That this is obviously meaning after Zechariah 14:12 has been fulfilled, and that Zechariah 14:12 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, and that verses 16-19 involve being punished for failing to comply, that unless there is something that prevents that from taking place throughout all eternity, one then has to conclude it will be like that throughout all eternity, what is depicted in verses 16-19. Unless they can somehow convincingly prove that verses 16-19 are not even pertaining to post the 2nd coming. Except they somehow have to get around verse 12 to prove it, though. Because, clearly, verses 16-19 are meaning post the 2nd coming if it is meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled. Factor in a thousand years and a little season, now one has something preventing verses 16-19 from involving all of eternity.

 

[Zao is life]

If we then factor in 2 Peter 3:8, and then note that Adam lived 930 years then died, that this indicates that in the day he ate of the forbidden tree, he then died in that same day, meaning within that thousand year day. And to this day, not one person has ever lived an entire thousand years.

Well, Adam's lifespan can surely only have begun to be measured in terms of years once he began to age, i.e once he died spiritually, i.e once he had been prevented from eating of the tree of life?

So the time between God breathing eternal life into Adam and the day Adam began to die is what I had in mind - not the 930 years following Adam's expulsion from Eden.

Also, I believe that the words "..in Him was life and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4) and "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst." (John 6:35) are telling us that the tree of life and the bread of life are the same - the Word of God, Jesus. And I believe that the river of life is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

I see Genesis as an account of an actual event, but like in so many books of the Bible and in so many passages in the Bible's apocalyptic literature, metaphor is being used - the serpent is a metaphor for Satan.

So I agree with you that we need to eat of the bread/tree of life continually, and the Lord feeds us continually.

Some interpreters insist that Adam never ate from the tree of life while in the garden, but, that if he ate from it after he fell, he would have become an instant immortal.

I've seen some interpreters say this, but this will mean that since we believers partake of the bread of life, we have become immortals before the resurrection, and our bodies will never die. We also only began to partake of the bread of life subsequent to the fall of Adam.

I believe that In Him (Jesus, the Word of God) is that eternal life that Genesis is talking about. So I don't believe that "the tree of life" is some magical actual "tree", but the Word of God.

Adam rejected the Word of God (you shall surely die) in favor of the lie (you shall not surely die).

And since the fall of Adam, the blood of Christ became necessary for any man's salvation - whether before the crucifixion or subsequent to it, and faith in the Word of God has always been what qualified Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, prophets, apostles, all the faithful and now us, to be forgiven for our sins and eat of the tree of life, i.e the Word of God.

And Jesus is the Word of God. Praise Jesus. He is also the Word by Whom all things were created - so the sabbath rest in Eden was in Christ.

Which could mean, though I realize that you disagree there will be any mortals living during the thousand years, that mortals get to live an entire thousand years and then some, meaning those remaining per Zechariah 14:16-19, then are tested at the end. And even though they lived an entire thousand years in a perfect world, they still rebelled in the end. Or it could be what you are proposing instead. I don't know yet since I haven't had time to fully consider what you are proposing.

Well, will there be any mortals after the return of Christ, considering these verses?:

Daniel 12
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24
15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

If Premils can believe that mortal believers can be in the millennium who are survivors of the Day of the LORD and 'made it' through their repentance when they saw what was coming upon them, then Premils can believe that the resurrection of the just and the unjust will take place before the commencement of the millennium - and that at the close of the millennium there will be one last rebellion when Satan has been released for his final 'little season'. In my opinion there is no reason to believe that those who repented "when the clock struck midnight" and survived the Day of the LORD have to be non-resurrected mortals in the millennium.

I don't know the answer regarding the above, but though it seems a cop-out, I don't believe we have been told everything - because both Daniel and John were told to seal certain things up and the mystery of God which He revealed to the prophets will only be made known when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

To me the fact that there is no agreement about it is proof of the fact that it is not as clear as many believe it is. The closing verses of Revelation 20 are not clear to me, but for now I don't believe it's referring to another resurrection, i.e the resurrection of the unjust.

Getting back to the tree of life. If one insists that if you eat of it just one time, that this makes you an instant immortal, why does Revelation 22 record that it is being consumed on a continual basis? Which then makes me think the tree of life is the link to immortality, but not instant immortality. Meaning, as long as one keeps eating from it, they continue to live, but take away access from it, one then eventually dies.

Yes, exactly - Adam's rejection of the Word of God in favor of the lie of Satan in Eden will replay itself in the case of those who follow Satan in the final rebellion.

Those that have part in the LOF obviously have no access to the tree of life, which could be why it's called the 2nd death. Losing access to it caused the first death for everyone, IMO. Not having access to it after having been brought back from the first death, thus the resurrection of the dead, results in the 2nd death which there is no returning from.

I agree. It's really good to know there's someone who sees what I see. It's a lonely road in this hood, the one you and I are on.

Which, BTW, the fact I debate Universalism from time to time, this alone proves that view is not Biblical. Because, in order for it to even be possibly Biblical it requires that there has to be a resurrection from the 2nd death, except there obviously isn't. Why anyone might think Universalism is Biblical to begin with, is beyond me. Yet, many apparently do. And IMO, this alone debunks that view, that there is no resurrection from the 2nd death.

Fully agree brother.

 

[Zao is life]

Exactly! And to add to that, it doesn't make sense, that the very same day He returns, those that are promised to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, they only get to do this for 24 hours or less. How can anyone possibly find that reasonable?

As to them judging the 12 tribes of Israel, I don't see that as meaning they are co judges with Christ at the great white throne judgment or something, which is what some Amils might be taking it to mean, but that I see meaning judging in the sense pertaining to what 1 Corinthians 6 is involving, as an example.


Or maybe even better yet, in the sense the following in the OT is meaning.

Deuteronomy 16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

But even if judging the 12 tribes of Isreal can't fit anything in 1 Corinthians 6 nor anything similar to Deuteronomy 16:18, I still can't see it fitting being co judges with Christ at the great white throne judgment. How does it make sense, the fact that judgment also involves judging people that are not a part of any of the 12 tribes, that these who sit upon twelve thrones, they judge those pertaining to the 12 tribes but no one else as well? It doesn't make sense, that being the point. And it doesn't make sense that they only judge the twelve tribes of Israel for 24 hours or less, then Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father so that God may be all in all.

Besides this Jesus is the only judge. He does not need helpers. And the GWT verses state very clearly that what judges them is the fact that their names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life. And those books are metaphor for those whom Christ knows, whom the Father knows. God does not need books with lists of names in case He forgets.

It's judging in the sense that the judges in the book of Judges judged. They never had a king over them, except God. Our only King is Jesus. It's another way of saying "you will rule over the nations". Jews are only one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Benjamin and Judah were the two tribes of the southern kingdom. Benjamin is amalgamated with Judah today. The other ten tribes are the fullness of the Gentiles - so the apostles will be our judges too, and I'm happy with that - because they knew what they were talking about, unlike too many of the teachers of the churches that are in the hand of the Gentiles .

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Clearly the Bible teaches the "Little Horn" and "False Prophet" and "Man of Sin"
happen during the FOURTH BEAST. So this is a critical question to answer.

I for certain agree with this.

Ok... The question now becomes:
Was the Fourth Beast in existence WHILE Satan is "bound"
or AFTER he is "loosened" for his "Little Season"

The broader issue is understanding:
Daniel's Fourth Beast = the Revelation Beast = the Great Tribulation = the RULE of the Anti-Christ
DURING Satan's "Little Season".

Would you be so kind as to tell me whether you understand this reality?
Do you understand the Fourth Beast is shown as these other periods?

----

The Chronology of the History of Mankind is very simple. There are Four (4) Beasts/Kingdoms on earth

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven" [shown in many verses]

The ISSUE you seem to overlook is that Jesus specifically NAMED
each of these periods as a separate "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth.
Please look-up the verses I cited. If JESUS specifically called each of
these "Beasts" a "Kingdom of Heaven"... then you must deal with that.

Satan's "binding" must occur during ONE of those Kingdoms/Beasts
and Satan's "Little Season" must occur during ONE of those Kingdoms/Beasts.
ONE of those Kingdoms is the Church Age (3rd Beast) and ONE of them is the
Great Tribulation Kingdom (4th Beast)... which is which?

Or... maybe you could show an alternative chronology for the History of Man?
Please be specific.

As to this 3rd beast, the issue I have is you applying it to the time of the martyrs per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast. In order for you to be correct, you first have to show that there was an image to worship or not worship, that there was a mark upon the foreheads, or in the hands, to take or refuse to take, before that of the time of the 4th beast.

I have already shown that fact.
ONE Beast exists WHILE Satan is "bound" (the 3rd Beast)
and ONE Beasts exists AFTER Satan is "bound" (4th Beast)
That is exactly what the text says... it is YOU that wants to ASSUME
Rev 20 only shows ONE Beast (instead of two)

Listen... I understand this is a NEW teaching for you.
The Bible PROMISES the truth about the Fourth Beast would remain
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during
a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End" (also shown as the "Season and Time")

The issue is not whether this information is NEW...
the issue is WHAT is the 3rd Beast and WHAT is the 4th Beast.

Here is something you MUST understand:
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom

HOWEVER... THE ANTI-CHRIST (LITTLE HORN, FALSE PROPHET, MAN OF SIN)
ONLY EXISTS DURING THE FOURTH BEAST

(1) Revelation 20 DOES NOT say an Anti-Christ exists... only the "Beast/Image/Mark"
(2) The PEOPLE in Rev 20... the PEOPLE in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom who did not take the "mark"
are also shown in the passage below. And this passage gives us a TIME STAMP... it occurs BEFORE
Satan is "loosened" during his "Little Season"... see verse 11


So, here we see the PEOPLE in Rev 20 are the SAME PEOPLE in Rev 6...
they both existed WHILE Satan was "bound" in the Pit...
during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

AND they both must WAIT for Satan's "Little Season" (after being released)
before they are "avenged".

Rev 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them [Christian Saints]
that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice,
saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a LITLE SEASON,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [during the FOURTH Beast]


This is called "harmony of Scriptue"

In Rev 20 AND Rev 6 we see the PEOPLE existing in the (3rd) Christian Beast...
the period WHILE Satan is "bound"... the period BEFORE Satan's "Little Season"
This PROVES my chronology and DISPROVES yours.
Rev 20 and Rev 6 show the SAME PEOPLE.

The only place I know of in the Bible that mentions things like that in particular, is Revelation 13. Except all of that is involving the time of the 4th beast. Therefore, I find it unreasonable that when the saints per Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast, nor his image, that their martyrdom did not occur during the era of time Revelation 13 is involving.

Except.. the people in Rev 20 exist BEFORE Satan is released for his "Little Season" (the Fourth Beast)
There is NOTHING in Rev 20 to imply it was NOT the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
There is only your ASSUMPTION they are from the Fourth Beast because
they did not take the "mark"...

However... you cannot DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" or the "Mark" (I assume you can define the "Beast")
Your inability to DISCERN the definition of those words prevents you from offering an "informed opinion" on the matter.

WHEN you understand that EACH Kingdom had a "Beast/Image/mark" (although ONLY the Fourth Beast had THE Anti-Christ)...
when you understand THAT then you will "see" the chronology of the Four Beasts and the fact that
those in Rev 20 (AND Rev 6) represents the Church Saints BEFORE Satan's "Little Season"

OTHERWISE you must teach the people in Rev 6 are ALSO part of the Fourth Beast..
and that contradicts the fact they must WAIT for the "Little Season" to be completed
before they are "avenged".

You see... I am showing you "harmony of Scripture"
but the ONLY thing preventing you from seeing truth is your ASSUMPTION
that ONLY the Fourth Beast has an "Image/Mark"... that is an incorrect ASSUMPTION
which is proven incorrect AS SOON as you can DEFINE the meaning of "Image/Mark".

Listen... I used to think Rev 20 was showing the Great Tribulation Kingdom
until I was able to understand the MEANING of "Beast/Image/Mark"...
until I understood it happens WHILE Satan is "bound".

And if it does occur during the era of time Revelation 13 involves, though I realize you disagree, but let's assume you changed your mind eventually and agreed instead, what then? Can Amil still work?

Yes, Rev 13 is ONLY talking about the Revelation Beast.
So that does not effect the reality of Rev 20 talking about BOTH
the Third Beast (Christian Age) and the Fourth Beast (Great Tribulation Age)

Now... if you want to discuss Rev 13... I can show you things you have not understood
about the Fourth Beast consisting of TWO woes and TWO trumpets and TWO "head/kings"
and TWO "Beasts".... one during the First Woe (the 7th head/king) and another during the Second Woe
(the 8th "head/king".

But, if we are going do discuss Rev 13
let's focus on that separately.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

@5thKingdom

First, you need to abandon the false idea that your understanding of the prophetic Word, as given by the apostles in the New Testament, and as given by Jesus in His Revelation, and in other statements and parables that Jesus uttered, is 100% correct at all times,

First, let's remember the Bible PROMISES (Dan 12) the Truth about the Fourth Beast
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during
a period NAMED as the "Time-of-the-End" (after the Great Commission of the Church age)

Second... I would be GLAD to revise my doctrines AS SOON as you show a contradiction in Scripture
You have not (even tried to) REFUTE my doctrines from Scripture. Instead you have only DENIED
my words - based on your "feelings".

Please prove at least ONE VERSE that contradicts my doctrine
BEFORE you assume there is an error.
Is that fair enough?

and you may also abandon the false idea that anyone who disagrees with anything you say is "rejecting scripture".

How unfair.
I have said that Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10 teaches the Biblical Truth of the Fourth Beast
remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"

Anyone that disagrees with Dan 12 is REJECTING Scripture.
I did not write Dan 12... I was able to "understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"...
exactly as the Bible PROMISED.

And (again) the process of Bible study is simple:
Someone presents a doctrine. Then others can show some contradiction in Scripture
(proving that doctrine incorrect) or they must concede the doctrine stands.

At NO TIME in history has the process been
Someone (me) presents a doctrine and others (you) do not REFUTE the doctrine with Scripture...
instead you simply DENY the doctrine without any supporting Scripture... you only express your "feelings" on the issue.

If you want me to "abandon" some doctrine
all you need to do is provide ONE VERSE that contradicts that doctrine.
I am always GLAD to be corrected FROM SCRIPTURE (but not from someone's "feelings")

You are not the Holy Spirit and your human mind is as fallible as mine and anyone else's.

No, I am not the Holy Spirit.
That is a STRAWMAN argument that proves NOTHING.
That is a cheap shot.

However...
Remember the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
about the Fourth Beast during the "Time-of-the-End"
This is what the Bible PROMISES
And this must happen.

Do you ACCEPT or REJECT what the Bible PROMISES about NEW INFORMATION in Dan 12?

There are two separate times in the book of Daniel that the word "abomination" is associated with the temple of God, and there is a major difference between the two:

We have not even BEGUN to discuss the "Abomination of Desolation"
However... I can easily prove the event happens during the FOURTH BEAST.
And that fact REFUTES your understanding. Would you like to discuss the Abomination?

1. The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, rededicated, and reconsecrated to God.

Wrong.

First, remember, the Bible PROMISES the Truth (about the Fourth Beast) would remain "closed-up" and "sealed'.

Second, remember, I can PROVE the Abomination happens during the Fourth Beast...
not during the (2nd) Jewish Beast and not during the (3rd) Christian Beast.
Would you like to discuss the Abomination?

Bottom Line:
Because your interpretation is an OLD interpretation (developed before the "Time-of-the-End]
IT MUST BE WRONG because it was developed while the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"

In other words... for you to pretend your OLD interpretation is True...
you must REJECT what the Bible PROMISED in Daniel 12.
It is really as simple as that

In Daniel Chapter 12, the final 3.5 years is mentioned. In Revelation Chapter 10 the final 3.5 years has now passed, and the 7th trumpet is about to sound. Revelation chapter 10 complements Daniel chapter 12.

You err because you do not understand the harmony of Scripture.
The Fourth Beast is NOT 3.5 years. You must harmonize ALL RELATAED passages
before you can pretend to have found Truth.



The Last Kingdom before the Lord's Return - consisting of "Ten Virgins" and "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns",
these same people are shown in other passages (by many different names) and each passage must be harmonized to have Truth.
Below is a (partial) list of Biblical names given – to represent the people living during Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven".


The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]

The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for 42 months/3.5 years [Rev 11]

The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" (the Anti-Christ's hand) for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

The "Woman" which is hidden from the face of the "serpent" for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

The "Witnesses" which are "overcome" and "killed" by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

The "Kingdom" which is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

The "Host and the Stars" that are "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]


The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"... when you cannot HARMONIZE this reality
you cannot hope to find Biblical Truth about the Fourth Beast.


BTW... the FIRST "watch of the night" was 2300 days ("evenings/mornings")
so any notion of a Great Tribulation of 3.5 years is pure fantasy.


While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth"
into the 4th Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7] as the "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns"
that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ... and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns"
that "agreed to give their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of other passages that talk about
these same people, and every one of the passages must be harmonized before we can pretend to have more than partial-truth.

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and HE had the final say on all these matters. The sealed mystery referred to in Daniel 12:9 will only be unsealed when the 7th trumpet is about to sound - ACCORDING TO JESUS.
@DavidPT

No... you ADDED that to the text.
The Bible does not teach the Saints "shall understand" at the 7th Trumpet (that's your immagination)
The Bible teaches the Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End" (also shown as the "Season and Time"
If you do not understand this reality you MUST have false doctrine.

Make no mistake:
When the Lord Returns the Last Saints are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and they are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom, and they are NOT preaching
the Gospel of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom...

Instead, when the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are preaching the historical fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies
that Jesus PROMISED they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33] and they are preaching Biblical Mysteries
that remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach)

Tell me sir...
what NEW INFORMATION do you imagine the Last Saints preach during the "Time-of-the-End" or the "Season and Time"?

Applying Revelation 20:4-6 to any saints who were not beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast will never suffice for those who refuse to add another meaning to scripture that is not implied in the text.

Are you aware there was a "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark" during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom?
Are you aware there was a "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark" during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom?
And of course there was a "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark" during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom...
there was also THE Anti-Christ during the Fourth Beast (but NOT during the 2nd or 3rd Beast)

This is NEW INFORMATION to you... but it's what the Bible teaches.

Rev 20 shows TWO different Beasts (you have not discerned that reality - so your interpretation MUST be wrong)
One Beast WHILE Satan is "bound"... those martyred during the Christian Kingdom... for not taking the "Mark"
One Beast AFTER Satan is released... those alive during Satan's "Little Season"

Unless/until you are able to discern the TWO Beasts of Rev 20
One BEFORE Satan is release and one AFTER his release...
until you "see" that, you MUST be WRONG
It's as simple as that.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
The "first resurrection" is when we are "born again" or "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit.

Christ specifically tells us what the first resurrection is after his return. We are talking about two separate resurrections at that point. We are not talking about anything prior.

(1) First, Christ doe NOT tell us the first resurrection is after His Return... you ADDED that to the text.
Rev 20:4 is showing people who were martyred during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
and NOT people from the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.

Rev 20 shows TWO Beasts...
one WHILE Satan is "bound" in the Pit
one AFTER Satan is "loosened" from the Pit

You cannot hope to find truth until you can discern the two Beasts

(2) Secondly....
I gave your verses in Ephesians that PROVE the "first resurrection" is when we are "born again"....
You INTENTIONALLY IGNORED those Scriptures... you cannot hope to find truth when you intentionally ignore Scripture.

Also... this has been the "traditional" understanding of the "first resurrection" since the days of the Apostles.
the notion of a literal 1000 year period was a heresy introduced AFTER the Apostles days.
Your position is a heresy REFUTED by the Saints since the Reformation.
That is a little context you should consider.

But MAINLY you need to DEAL with the verses I gave you.
How dare you IGNORE SCRIPTURE and try to pretend you have found truth.

Would you say anyone is "ruling" with Christ at this time in the world?

Yes, it is the "traditional" understanding of the early Saints that the Saints "lived and ruled with Christ"
during the A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission of the Church Age.

The fact that Satan is "bound" does not imply he does not exist.
It means he was LIMITED in what he could do to the Saints during that time.
He was not able to prevent all of "His sheep" from being found and saved.

The church has always understood this...
and the fact that we still have spiritual warfare,
only Satan cannot prevail against the elect.

When you imagine Satan being "bound" represents he no longer exist...
you are ADDING to the text.

BTW... do you actually think Satan is "bound" with PHYSICAL chains?
Do you imagine Satan had a PHYSICAL "seal" placed on him?
Do you think there is a PHYSICAL "bottomless" Pit exists somewhere?
This is spiritual language... not literal.
Read the text carefully

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