Undecided in eschatology

[DavidPT]

So in the original Revelation of John, when the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them, there's no fire coming down and devouring them mentioned. Instead, we read that Christ will come with His armies following Him, and defeat the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.

Amillennialism inserts the binding of Satan somewhere between Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 12:17. but it's no so clear exactly where it's inserted. I think that different Amillennialists have different views on exactly where and when it happened and where it should be inserted into the text.

One thing that seems obvious to me, satan can't be bound in the pit prior to the war in heaven since he still has access to heaven in some sense until he is cast unto the earth. Which means his binding can't happen until he is cast unto the earth first. But notice what he does once he sees he has been cast unto the earth. he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. I don't see that fitting with anything involving what Revelation 20:1-3 records. Of course though, one might argue that the text indicates he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations, and not bound so that he can no longer persecute anyone. But even so, I still don't see any place in Revelation 12 that can fit what Revelation 20:1-3 is depicting. The contexts aren't even remotely the same. And the funny thing about it, Revelation 12 spans 2000 years or more, the same 2000 years Amils insist are the thousand years. Where then does Revelation 20:1-3 fit anywhere within Revelation 12? IOW, where is the starting point of his binding and where is end of his binding found within Revelation 12?

 

[Zao is life]

One thing that seems obvious to me, satan can't be bound in the pit prior to the war in heaven since he still has access to heaven in some sense until he is cast unto the earth. Which means his binding can't happen until he is cast unto the earth first. But notice what he does once he sees he has been cast unto the earth. he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. I don't see that fitting with anything involving what Revelation 20:1-3 records. Of course though, one might argue that the text indicates he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations, and not bound so that he can no longer persecute anyone. But even so, I still don't see any place in Revelation 12 that can fit what Revelation 20:1-3 is depicting. The contexts aren't even remotely the same. And the funny thing about it, Revelation 12 spans 2000 years or more, the same 2000 years Amils insist are the thousand years. Where then does Revelation 20:1-3 fit anywhere within Revelation 12? IOW, where is the starting point of his binding and where is end of his binding found within Revelation 12?

Yes, I agree with your questions, without having any answer to them, of course, and I don't think all Amillennialists are in agreement about precisely when this binding took place.

The point I was showing is that Premillenial chronology, if written down, does not need to move any scriptures around or find other interpretations of what is said in the letters of the apostles about the activities of Satan, the influence of Satan in the world and over this world's societies, etc, or by Jesus to the church in Smyrna about Satan's activities.

But Amill chronology, if written down, of necessity must rearrange the Revelation, and find other interpretations of what is said in the letters of the apostles about the activities of Satan, the influence of Satan in the world and over this world's societies, etc, or by Jesus to the church in Smyrna about Satan's activities.

And Amil, if written down, will end up adding to scripture in order to take away from scripture whatever contradicts Amil - for example adding the words in brackets below:

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more [so that he cannot gather the nations unto battle or prevent the spread of the gospel and growth of the Kingdom of Christ] until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

Added to this, Amil must of necessity insist that by a thousand years is meant thousands of years because a thousand years is meant symbolically.

Premil chronology, if written down, does not need to rearrange scripture, and does not need to add or take away from what the text says.

Still, I'm not Premil because I don't believe the new heavens and new earth follows only a thousand years after the return of Christ. I now believe that both the thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time. It's a very unique view and does not "sit well" with most Christians, because it means that the close of the thousand years is the final test of the (now resurrected) sons of Adam who like Adam have had the right to eat of the tree of life and like with Adam in the garden of Eden, the time came when God allowed Satan to test mankind.

Those who had already been tested such as those in Revelation 20:4-6 who overcame are the only people Revelation promises that the second death will have no power over them. It's silent on the rest of those who will be resurrected at the return of Christ.

When Adam sinned he lost the right to eat of the tree of life and death came to Adam and to all mankind through Adam. The last Adam bore the penalty for the first man Adam's sin, died and rose again - and Revelation Chapter 20 tells us that there will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

I don't see mortals going into the new heavens and the new earth/thousand years after the return of Christ, so the rebelling ones who have been deceived by Satan will know - just as Adam, who had been eating freely of the tree of life, knew and heard what God commanded him, and therefore knew that "you will not surely die" was in effect calling God, who said, "you will surely die", a liar.

 

[5thKingdom]

Hi 5thKingdom,

Jesus NEVER revealed about the Body of Christ till He ascended to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit to reveal it to the Apostle Paul. (Eph. 3: 5)

Ok... this is how a discussion is SUPPOSED to happen:
I made a statement. You need to show Scripture that refutes my comment
or you have not actually responded at all.

And the statement you made has NOTHING to do with my comment.

I will repost my comments

You could not be more wrong.

Jesus was very clear [Mat 13]
that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [7 verses] consists of BOTH
(1) saved "wheat/sheep" IN THE CHURCH sown by God and destined to eternal life and
(2) unsaved "tares/goats" IN THE CHURCH sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.


Mat 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children
of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are
the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear,
let him hear.


Now...
If you want to respond to this post
then do not deflect to another issue and
please provide some SCRIPTURE that refutes me
(citing verses that are not related to the subject mean nothing)
.

 

[5thKingdom]

Just because there might be a thousand years after the 2nd coming, that doesn't take away from the fact that there is only one kingdom and that it is everlasting.

I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the END OF THE AGE. Amen.


Jesus promised to be with the Saints throughout the (1000 yr) Church Age...
that is why it's called an A-Millennium Kingdom. And AFTER that thousand years
(after Satan is loosened from the Pit) there is a Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
which is also shown as the Revelation Beast and Daniel's FOURTH "Beast"


Daniel teaches about FOUR Beasts that arise on earth (four "Kingdoms")
before the Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed
and the (5th) Eternal Kingdom begins.


So the Great Commission of the church age continues WHILE Satan is "bound" in the Pit.
Satan was "bound" at the Cross so the Saints could "seek and save" all the elect.
Again, this is Christian theology 101


AFTER Satan is released from the Pit he RULE over the Fourth Beast on earth...
the Revelation Beast and/or the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mt 25:1]


When you cannot differentiate between events WHILE Satan is "bound"
and events AFTER Satan is released... then you cannot understand the chronology
of the Gospel... see below:


You could not be more incorrect when you say there is only ONE "Kingdom"

Jesus specifically NAMED the Jewish Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]... do you REJECT Christ Words there?
Jesus specifically NAMED the Christian Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses[... do you REJECT Christs Words?
Jesus specifically NAMED the Great Tribulation Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]... do you REJECT Christ's Words there?
And Jesus specifically named the Eternal Kingdom as a "Kingdom of Heaven" in many verses.


So, the BIBLE teaches there are FIVE (5) separate and distinct "Kingdoms"
Jesus NAMED the Jewish Kingdom and the Christian Kingdom and the Great Tribulation Kingdom
AND the eternal Kingdom... that is FOUR Kingdoms - the 5th is the Pre-Flood Kingdom
containing all the Saints from Adam to Noah. The BIBLE teaches there are
five (5) separate and distinct "Kingdoms" throughout history.
And history (reality) has confirmed these "Kingdoms"...
do you not believe HISTORY?


You see...
It is fine to express your "feelings" that there is only ONE Kingdom...
however your "feelings" are contradicted by Scripture and therefore,
your "feelings" are proven incorrect and meaningless.

The ONLY authority one the Gospel is Scripture
and you are contradicting Scripture.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The way I reason it, verse 21 involves the 42 month reign of the beast(Revelation 13) , and that the coming in verse 22 above is meaning at the end of/after the war involving verse 21. Which then leads to what is recorded below.

You are partially correct:


The rule of the "Little Horn" represents the FOURTH "Kingdom/Beast" on earth.
This period is shown in Scripture as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast
and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] and (4) the RULE of the Anti-Christ
during (5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being released from the Pit...
after the Great Commission of the Church Age is completed.


However, the Great Tribulation, the Fourth Beast, is NOT for 42 months.
that 42 months represent 3.5 lunar years...


The duration of the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast / Fourth Beast
is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


You cannot understand the chronology of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"
when you do not even understand the four "watches of the night".
If you need information, just ASK a question...
instead of expressing your "feelings".


BTW... the reason the period exists for 3.5 "times/days/years/watches"
is because the period is "shortened" for the elect...
or else "no flesh" would be saved.


Mat 24:21-2
For then shall be Great Tribulation [during the Fourth Beast, the Revelation Beast and Satan's "Little Season"],
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's [the Last Saint's] sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

How does one propose the beast is slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame, unless there is a bodily return of Christ first? How can the one meant in verse 9 above not be meaning Christ, based on the following, for one?

The Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is slain and given to the "Burning Flame"...
also shown as "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 19:20]
Clearly men are cast into "hell" here.


But HERE is the real question:


How can the "rest of the Beasts" [the previous kingdoms] continue to exist on earth
for a period NAMED the "Season and Time" AFTER the destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast?
You cannot EVER cite Daniel 7:11 without also including Daniel 7:12...
verses 11-12 go together - you separate them. Why?


Dan 7:12
As concerning the rest of the Beasts, [before the FOURTH Beast]
they had their dominion [authority] taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a Season-and-Time.


The Bible clearly teaches there is a "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed....
AFTER the PEOPLE of the Fourth Beast has been cast hell ("Burning Flame" and "Lake of Fire"]
Do you understand the "Season and Time"... because I understand the period.
Do you have any QUESTIONS about that period?

How does one propose verse 12 above gets fulfilled unless there is still another period of time after Christ has returned?

The Bible did NOT say Christ Returned in Dan 7:11... you are ADDING that from your imagination.
The Bible said the Fourth Beast is destroyed... it did NOT Say Christ Returned.

Revelation 19 involves the bodily 2nd coming in the end of this age.

No, you are wrong again....


Rev 19:20 (like Dan 7:11) shows the destruction of the Revelation Beast...
It does NOT show the Return of Christ.


You will notice there is a time period BETWEEN Rev 19:20 and Rev 20:10


Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Earlier I asked you whether you understand the "Season and Time" after destruction of the Fourth Beast [Dan 7:11 and Rev 19:20]
this period is also shown as the "Time-of-the-End" in Daniel 12. This is a time when the Last Saints "shall understand"
Biblical mysteries that remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all (Jewish and Christian) Saints until
the Last Saints "shall understand" at a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End"


You are struggling to understand the "Season and Time" or the "Time-of-the-End"...
I understand this period and I would be happy to explain it to you....
just ask any questions you have.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the Time-of-the-End:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [about the Gospel] shall be increased.


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the Time-of-the-End.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] shall understand.

Because, after all, in order for the beast to be taken and cast into the LOF(Revelation 19:20), it requires that someone has to bodily come and do it. It's not like Joe Biden is going to take the beast and cast it into the LOF. Somebody has to do that, though.

You think GOD could not do it?

And since Christ is present in Revelation 19,

Please show me WHERE "Christ is present" in Rev 19:20... you are ADDING to the text.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

These souls went on to "live" and reign with Christ a 1000 years. And the very next verse tells us they take part in the first resurrection. Meaning the first resurrection after Christ returns.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You have made an assumption that contradicts Scripture.
You assume the "first resurrection" happens at the resurrection... it does not.


The "first resurrection" is when we are "born again" or "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit.
The "first resurrection" is when we were DEAD and we are made ALIVE with Christ.


Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;


Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


The Gospel teaches that all men are born spiritually DEAD (because of "original sin")
and, when we are regenerated, we are made ALIVE...
this is the "first resurrection".


And this all "fits" into Rev 20.
This is the "traditional" understanding of the "first resurrection"
This is not a NEW doctrine. I am surprise that you have not hear this doctrine before...


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Your view for the most part tends to confuse me. I can't follow what it is that you believe,
in regards to what I quoted above. You lost me a long time ago, unfortunately.

That would be strange - because I have prevented SCRIPTURE to support my Gospel
However, the Bible does PROMISE that information about the Gospel increases at the "Time-of-the-End".


That Bible is very clear that understanding about Daniel's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation)
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" the mysteries
at a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End"


We are currently in the "Time-of-the-End"
and the Last Saints are preaching Biblical mysteries that were "closed-up" and "sealed"


The Bible PROMISES that Biblical Truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast - the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation Kingdom
would remain "closed-up" until the Last Saints "shall understand" THAT MEANS that any and all "interpretations"
about Daniel's Fourth Beast made BEFORE the "Time-of-the-End" MUST BE WRONG because
they were developed while the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


Your understanding of the Fourth Beast MUST be wrong because it was developed during a time
when the Bible PROMISES the Truth would be "closed-up" and "sealed"....
your "interpretations" MUST be wrong because they were
developed 500 years ago.


Make no mistake,
When the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and they are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and they are
NOT preaching the Gospel of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom...


Instead, when the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are preaching the historical fulfillment
of Great Tribulation prophecies Jesus PROMISED they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33]
and the Last Saints are preaching Biblical mysteries that remained "closed-up" and "sealed'
from all previous saints - until the Last Saints "shall understand' at the period
named the "Time-of-the-End"

 

[Zao is life]

I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the END OF THE AGE. Amen.


Jesus promised to be with the Saints throughout the (1000 yr) Church Age...
that is why it's called an A-Millennium Kingdom. And AFTER that thousand years
(after Satan is loosened from the Pit) there is a Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
which is also shown as the Revelation Beast and Daniel's FOURTH "Beast"


Daniel teaches about FOUR Beasts that arise on earth (four "Kingdoms")
before the Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed
and the (5th) Eternal Kingdom begins.


So the Great Commission of the church age continues WHILE Satan is "bound" in the Pit.
Satan was "bound" at the Cross so the Saints could "seek and save" all the elect.
Again, this is Christian theology 101


AFTER Satan is released from the Pit he RULE over the Fourth Beast on earth...
the Revelation Beast and/or the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mt 25:1]


When you cannot differentiate between events WHILE Satan is "bound"
and events AFTER Satan is released... then you cannot understand the chronology
of the Gospel... see below:


You could not be more incorrect when you say there is only ONE "Kingdom"

Jesus specifically NAMED the Jewish Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]... do you REJECT Christ Words there?
Jesus specifically NAMED the Christian Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses[... do you REJECT Christs Words?
Jesus specifically NAMED the Great Tribulation Age as a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]... do you REJECT Christ's Words there?
And Jesus specifically named the Eternal Kingdom as a "Kingdom of Heaven" in many verses.


So, the BIBLE teaches there are FIVE (5) separate and distinct "Kingdoms"
Jesus NAMED the Jewish Kingdom and the Christian Kingdom and the Great Tribulation Kingdom
AND the eternal Kingdom... that is FOUR Kingdoms - the 5th is the Pre-Flood Kingdom
containing all the Saints from Adam to Noah. The BIBLE teaches there are
five (5) separate and distinct "Kingdoms" throughout history.
And history (reality) has confirmed these "Kingdoms"...
do you not believe HISTORY?


You see...
It is fine to express your "feelings" that there is only ONE Kingdom...
however your "feelings" are contradicted by Scripture and therefore,
your "feelings" are proven incorrect and meaningless.

The ONLY authority one the Gospel is Scripture
and you are contradicting Scripture.

.

The blood of Christ became necessary for the salvation of mankind the moment Adam fell, and the moment Adam fell, God promised that the seed of the woman would come into the world. Ever since the fall of Adam, faith in the word of God (like Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Moses etc had) became the only way to inherit the promised blessing, whether before or since the crucifixion of Christ.

Seth was the son of Adam, the son of God. His line represented the sons of God. The Kingdom of Heaven has been in the world since the fall of Adam. It's always been with us, it's with us now, and it's coming. This is because Christ is He who is, who was, and who is to come. The Almighty. His blood shed for sins covers all sins of all time. There is only one Kingdom of Heaven. It's is Christ's Kingdom. He came into the world in the fullness of time:

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come under Law,

Ephesians 1:10-11 For an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him, in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.

The Kingdom of Heaven is God in creation, tabernacled among his people. The Old Testament Temple system was a shadow of it. Before the Law God still worked in creation, and God still spoke to Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc.

There is and always has been only one Kingdom of Heaven. It's been complete since before creation, because Christ exists from eternity, but it has also been unraveling since Adam. The kingdoms of man - the unbelieving portions of man - make NO difference. Each of them are given but a brief lease in the world.

 

[5thKingdom]

First you admit that there is a season and time after the 4th beast is destroyed. A lot of Amils around here disagree, though.

First... It is EXPECTED (during any Kingdom) that the Truth is not known to many... only the Saints,
and in this case only the Last Saints "shall understand" Daniel's prophecies during
the "Season and Time"... also known as the "Time-of-the-End" [Dan 12:8-10]

Secondly... those Amils that disagree with the existence of a "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed... they are disagreeing with SCIPRIPTURE,
so they cannot offer an "informed opinion".

Meaning any Amils who are not Preterists, but agree that Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming in the end of this age. These Amils see that as the last day of this age, therefore, no more days for a season and a time to fit once the 4th beast is cast into the LOF.

The (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" did not understand the END of their Kingdom... or the subsequent Christian Kingdom.

The (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" did not understand the END of their Kingdom... or the subsequent FOUTH BEAST
Because that information remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all (Jewish and Christian) Saints until
the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End" [Dan 12:8-10}
which is also called the "Season and Time".

Bottom Line:
The Bible PROMISES Biblical Truths about Daniel's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast and Great Tribulation)
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "Time-of-the-End" or "Season and Time"...
so all previous "interpretations" MUST be wrong because they were developed
before the Last Saints "shall understand".

Do you not agree that Revelation 19 involves the bodily return in the end of this age?

No... Rev 19:20 does NOT show the Lord's Return.
It only shows the Fourth Beast being destroyed... the remaining Beast
have their dominion/authority taken away, but their lives are prolonged ON EARTH
The Bible teaches that people continue to exist on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed.

Dan 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20 do NOT show the Return of Christ...
there are still people living on earth for a "Season and Time".

.

 

[5thKingdom]

The blood of Christ became necessary for the salvation of mankind the moment Adam fell, and the moment Adam fell, God promised that the seed of the woman would come into the world. Ever since the fall of Adam, faith in the word of God (like Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Moses etc had) became the only way to inherit the promised blessing, whether before or since the crucifixion of Christ.

That is interesting...
but it has NOTHING to do with what I said:


5thKingdom said:
I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.

Seth was the son of Adam, the son of God. His line represented the sons of God. The Kingdom of Heaven has been in the world since the fall of Adam. It's always been with us, it's with us now, and it's coming. This is because Christ is He who is, who was, and who is to come. The Almighty. His blood shed for sins covers all sins of all time. There is only one Kingdom of Heaven. It's is Christ's Kingdom.

That is interesting...
but it has NOTHING to do with what I said:


5thKingdom said:
I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.

.

 

[Zao is life]

That is interesting...
but it has NOTHING to do with what I said:


5thKingdom said:
I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.




That is interesting...
but it has NOTHING to do with what I said:


5thKingdom said:
I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.

.

I also cannot believe that you would say what you say knowing what David has said and what his non-Amil poistion is. But why should whatever David has said prevent you from offering your opinions, as you are doing?

Likewise, David isn't prevented from saying anything just because your opinion differs from his and he has already stated something which you still express disagreement with.

 

[Zao is life]

5thKingdom said:
I cannot believe you said that knowing my (AMillennial) Gospel teaches the 1000 year period
is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" which is the Great Commission of the church age.
This is Christian theology 101.

.

Your gospel? The only gospel we have is God's gospel, and it's not Amillennial either, because it's existed since the day God told satan in the hearing of Adam and Eve about the seed who was coming. The good news preached by the disciples is that He is come, has died for our sins and risen again from the dead, has ascended into heaven, and is coming again to judge the living and the dead. It's God's gospel, not yours or mine, and it has nothing to do with whether you are incorrect or correct about whether or not the Revelation Jesus gave us about the thousand years is symbolic for thousands of years.

 

[5thKingdom]

@RoadoftheGypsy Here's a comparison for you to help you make up your mind. It's in two parts:

1. Chronology of the Revelation according to John, as written by John

The Chronology of the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is not difficult.
It is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


Matthew 25:1-1 shows the chronology of the Fourth Beat


During the first "watch of the night" the Fourth Beast RULES the Kingdom
This happens during the 1st Woe and the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head"


During the second "watch of the night" the Last Saints were silenced.
the Bible says they "slumbered and slept"


Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all [all the Ten Virgins] slumbered and slept.


During the third "watch of the night" all the Ten Virgins arose
and they began preaching a different Gospel... this is during the
2nd Woe and the Sixth Trumpet and the eighth "head/king"


Mat 25:6-27
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those [Ten] Virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps [adjusted their Gospels].


During the fourth "watch of the night" the "wise virgins" [saved Last Saints]
and the "foolish virgins" [unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom] are separated.
Then the "Final Harvest" of the "wise virgins" happens
and THE DOOR IS SHUT


Mat 25:10
And while they [The foolish virgins] went to buy,
the bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that were ready [the wise virgins]
went in with him to the marriage: AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT.


The reason why the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night" is that the FOURTH "watch" is "shortened"
for the sake of the elect Last Saints.


Mat 24:21-22
For then [during the Fourth Beast] shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's [Last Saint's] sake those days shall be shortened.


You cannot POSSIBLY understand the chronology of the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Satan's "Little Season"...
unless/until you understand the 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


.

 

[5thKingdom]

I also cannot believe that you would say what you say knowing what David has said and what his non-Amil poistion is. But why should whatever David has said prevent you from offering your opinions, as you are doing?

Likewise, David isn't prevented from saying anything just because your opinion differs from his and he has already stated something which you still express disagreement with.

First... I simply showed how your comments had NOTHING to do with what I said.

Secondly... it does not matter what you or David think, it ONLY matters what the Harmony of Scripture reveals.

Finally... I am not "preventing" you from making comments when I demonstrate your comments had
NOTHING TO DO with the comments I made.

.

 

[Zao is life]

The Chronology of the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is not difficult.
It is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


Matthew 25:1-1 shows the chronology of the Fourth Beat


During the first "watch of the night" the Fourth Beast RULES the Kingdom
This happens during the 1st Woe and the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head"


During the second "watch of the night" the Last Saints were silenced.
the Bible says they "slumbered and slept"


Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all [all the Ten Virgins] slumbered and slept.


During the third "watch of the night" all the Ten Virgins arose
and they began preaching a different Gospel... this is during the
2nd Woe and the Sixth Trumpet and the eighth "head/king"


Mat 25:6-27
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those [Ten] Virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps [adjusted their Gospels].


During the fourth "watch of the night" the "wise virgins" [saved Last Saints]
and the "foolish virgins" [unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom] are separated.
Then the "Final Harvest" of the "wise virgins" happens
and THE DOOR IS SHUT


Mat 25:10
And while they [The foolish virgins] went to buy,
the bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that were ready [the wise virgins]
went in with him to the marriage: AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT.


The reason why the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night" is that the FOURTH "watch" is "shortened"
for the sake of the elect Last Saints.


Mat 24:21-22
For then [during the Fourth Beast] shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's [Last Saint's] sake those days shall be shortened.


You cannot POSSIBLY understand the chronology of the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Satan's "Little Season"...
unless/until you understand the 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


.

You have to begin to actually show from scripture the things you say, such as "3.5 watches in the night" and how this shows why Jesus said the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

I've been trying to grasp what you seem to be so convinced about regarding the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, but you keep mixing it up with a zillion other statements like what you just said above.

I try and avoid using language that involve statements, so let me just say that I have for a long time been of the opinion that the final three trumpets are telling us about the final 3.5 years of the age - the 42-month reign of the beast and the 1,260 days of the testimony of the two prophets/witnesses.

But whether or not the two witnesses are churches or two individuals like Moses and Aaron bringing locust plagues by God's power upon Egypt, turning the waters to blood etc, makes no difference to the 42 months.

Neither does it make any difference to the 4 kingdom thesis that you have been talking about.

It would be at least interesting to know by what scripture your authority is on the "3.5 watches in the night" and how this relates to the great trib period being shortened for the elect's sake, but you combine too many subjects that though they may be related, actually have nothing to do with your four kingdoms thesis so that you prevent me from grasping where you are getting what you say about the four kingdoms from, let alone whether or not I would agree with you. Statements that begin with things like "You cannot POSSIBLY understand .." don't support anything you say either.

 

[5thKingdom]

Your gospel?

Yes, the Saints in the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom had a Gospel... but it was not the "whole counsel of God"
because they did not understand the END of their Kingdom or the subsequent (3rd) Christian Kingdom.


And the Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom had a Gospel... it was DIFFERENT from the Jewish Gospel...
and it did not reveal the 'whole counsel of God" because it never understood the END of their Kingdom
or the subsequent (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


And the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation had a Gospel... it is DIFFERENT than the Jewish or Christian Gospel
because it includes teachings of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet and Man of Sin)
again, this Gospel did not reveal the 'whole counsel of God" because it did not
understand the END of the Fourth Beast or the "Season and Time" after.


The Bible is very clear...
understanding of Daniel's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Satan's "Little Season"
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints (Jewish and Christian) until
the Last Saints "shall understand" during the period called the "Time-of-the-End"


Make no mistake:
When the Lord Returns the Last Saints are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and they are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and they are NOT preaching the Gospel
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... Instead, when the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are preaching
about the historical fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies that Jesus PROMISED
they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33] and they are preaching
Biblical mysteries that were "closed-up" and "sealed" until
the Last Saints "shall understand".


Yes, there is ONE Gospel.
However, the Jewish Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
and the Christian Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
and the Great Tribulation Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
only the Last Saints "shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "sealed".
only the Last Saint can understand the ENTIRE Gospel.


Sir... your "interpretations" and David's "interpretations" MUST be wrong
We know absolutely that they are wrong because they were developed while Biblical Truth
about the Fourth Beast remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the period called the "Time-of-the-End"


Please, do not believe me... Read what the Bible teaches:
And please tell me WHAT part of these Scriptures you REJECT


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [about the Gospel] shall be increased.


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] shall understand.


The Bible is very clear:
The ENTIRE Gospel cannot be known until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the "Time-of-the-End", Therefore, any previous "interpretations" about the "Time-of-the-End"
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed while the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


You can REJECT what the Bible clearly says...
but then you are REJECTING the Bible (not me)


.

 

[Zao is life]

The Chronology of the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is not difficult.
It is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


Matthew 25:1-1 shows the chronology of the Fourth Beat


During the first "watch of the night" the Fourth Beast RULES the Kingdom
This happens during the 1st Woe and the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head"


During the second "watch of the night" the Last Saints were silenced.
the Bible says they "slumbered and slept"


Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all [all the Ten Virgins] slumbered and slept.


During the third "watch of the night" all the Ten Virgins arose
and they began preaching a different Gospel... this is during the
2nd Woe and the Sixth Trumpet and the eighth "head/king"


Mat 25:6-27
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those [Ten] Virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps [adjusted their Gospels].


During the fourth "watch of the night" the "wise virgins" [saved Last Saints]
and the "foolish virgins" [unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom] are separated.
Then the "Final Harvest" of the "wise virgins" happens
and THE DOOR IS SHUT


Mat 25:10
And while they [The foolish virgins] went to buy,
the bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that were ready [the wise virgins]
went in with him to the marriage: AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT.


The reason why the Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation is shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night" is that the FOURTH "watch" is "shortened"
for the sake of the elect Last Saints.


Mat 24:21-22
For then [during the Fourth Beast] shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's [Last Saint's] sake those days shall be shortened.


You cannot POSSIBLY understand the chronology of the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Satan's "Little Season"...
unless/until you understand the 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


.

It's very interesting but you have not shown why the watches in the night are linked to the 3.5 years. You've just stated it's the case, without backing it up with scripture, so all I have is what looks like conjecture.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, the Saints in the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom had a Gospel... but it was not the "whole counsel of God"
because they did not understand the END of their Kingdom or the subsequent (3rd) Christian Kingdom.


And the Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom had a Gospel... it was DIFFERENT from the Jewish Gospel...
and it did not reveal the 'whole counsel of God" because it never understood the END of their Kingdom
or the subsequent (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


And the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation had a Gospel... it is DIFFERENT than the Jewish or Christian Gospel
because it includes teachings of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet and Man of Sin)
again, this Gospel did not reveal the 'whole counsel of God" because it did not
understand the END of the Fourth Beast or the "Season and Time" after.


The Bible is very clear...
understanding of Daniel's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Satan's "Little Season"
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints (Jewish and Christian) until
the Last Saints "shall understand" during the period called the "Time-of-the-End"


Make no mistake:
When the Lord Returns the Last Saints are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and they are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and they are NOT preaching the Gospel
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... Instead, when the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are preaching
about the historical fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies that Jesus PROMISED
they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33] and they are preaching
Biblical mysteries that were "closed-up" and "sealed" until
the Last Saints "shall understand".


Yes, there is ONE Gospel.
However, the Jewish Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
and the Christian Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
and the Great Tribulation Saints did not understand the ENTIRE Gospel
only the Last Saints "shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "sealed".
only the Last Saint can understand the ENTIRE Gospel.


Sir... your "interpretations" and David's "interpretations" MUST be wrong
We know absolutely that they are wrong because they were developed while Biblical Truth
about the Fourth Beast remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the period called the "Time-of-the-End"


Please, do not believe me... Read what the Bible teaches:
And please tell me WHAT part of these Scriptures you REJECT


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [about the Gospel] shall be increased.


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] shall understand.


The Bible is very clear:
The ENTIRE Gospel cannot be known until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the "Time-of-the-End", Therefore, any previous "interpretations" about the "Time-of-the-End"
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed while the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


You can REJECT what the Bible clearly says...
but then you are REJECTING the Bible (not me)


.

I don't reject what the Bible says. Your equating of everything you say with what the Bible says and then stating that if I or anyone else rejects what you say then we are rejecting what the Bible says is born out of pride, and is a very bad way of discussing anything because normally it will get the person you are talking to to close up to anything you say.

I know that you are not rejecting what the Bible says because you reject what I say about certain things. You should know the same about me rather than equating your word based on your understanding of what the Bible is saying with God's Word in the Bible.

I agree with you regarding the sealed things - but they will only be revealed when the 7th trumpet sounds. You cannot possibly have been given the knowledge before everyone else to whom God will give it.

I also agree with what you say about the 6th trumpet = the beast = the 8th king.

Note: That man of sin has not been revealed yet. The 7th trumpet will not sound before that happens. The sealed mystery will not be revealed until the 7th trumpet is about to sound. This is the house that Jack built.

@5thKingdom I have to go now.

But know this, Satan's little season that is coming is not his last. The adversary in the Kingdom of the King will be permitted by the King until he is either bound and locked in a dungeon where he is able to do no more harm, or destroyed completely. The adversary has not experienced either yet.

What the adversary has experienced is total defeat through the blood of Jesus, by the death and resurrection of Christ, and being expelled legally from before the throne of the Great Judge, having no more law and sin that he can accuse the brethren with, being cast down to earth, and being put on notice that his time is short.

 

[5thKingdom]

You have to begin to actually show from scripture the things you say, such as "3.5 watches in the night" and how this shows why Jesus said the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

I have shown Scripture... you have not offered ONE VERSE to rebuke anything I have said.
I can show you the 3.5 "times" and "days" and years and "watches of the night"...
you need only engage me in that discussion.

Or you can simply dismiss me.
It is your choice.

I've been trying to grasp what you seem to be so convinced about regarding the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, but you keep mixing it up with a zillion other statements like what you just said above.

It may be confusing to you because it's NEW information...
but I am not "mixing it up"... instead, you are having a problem comprehending
what I have been saying - I have not contradicted myself EVER.

I try and avoid using language that involve statements, so let me just say that I have for a long time been of the opinion that the final three trumpets are telling us about the final 3.5 years of the age - the 42-month reign of the beast and the 1,260 days of the testimony of the two prophets/witnesses.

Of course the PROBLEM with your "interpretation" is that it MUST BE WRONG because it was developed
when the Bible Promises Biblical Truth about Danie's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast and Great Tribulation)
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand".


Secondly... the Great Tribulation is NOT 3.5 years. You have not harmonized RELATED passages.
The First "watch of the night"... the first Woe.. the Fifth Trumpet Judgement
was exactly 2300 days ("evenings/mornings")...


The First "watch"... the 1st Woe... the Fifth Trumpet
was 2300 days or about 6.4 years.


We can discuss this if you want
You err because you do not understand information that was "closed-up" and "sealed"

Neither does it make any difference to the 4 kingdom thesis that you have been talking about.

LOL
You have seen that Jesus NAMED three of the four "Kingdoms/Beasts" on earth...
and yet you call this a "thesis"...


You have seen in HISTORY (reality) that the
(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom was followed by the
(2nd) Jewish Kingdom which was followed by the
(3rd) Christian Kingdom which is followed by the
(4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (Revelation Beast)
and yet you call history/reality a "thesis"


Tell me sir..
WHY do you call the Words of Jesus a "thesis"?
and WHY do you call history/reality a "thesis"?


I would really like to know your REASON


The fact that you do not UNDERSTAND what Scripture teaches
does not negate the Truth... you seem to pretend it does.

It would be at least interesting to know by what scripture your authority is on the "3.5 watches in the night"

Then let's start that discussion

but you combine too many subjects that though they may be related, actually have nothing to do with your four kingdoms thesis

No... you are not able to UNDERSTAND the relation...
that negates NOTHING.

Scripture - or rather the harmony of all related Scripture - is the ONLY authority until He Returns.
If you want to examine the harmony of Scripture about any of these issues
I am happy to have that discussion.

But your UNDERSTANDING is never an "authority"..
so you can stop pretending otherwise

so that you prevent me from grasping where you are getting what you say about the four kingdoms from, let alone whether or not I would agree with you. Statements that begin with things like "You cannot POSSIBLY understand .." don't support anything you say either.

Sir.. the Bible could not be more clear...
understanding the TRUTH about Daniel's Fourth Kingdom/Beast
remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand"
during the "Time-of-the-End"

When I say "you cannot possibly understand"... I am simply repeating what Scripture says:
you are not REJECTING my words, you are REJECTING Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-10

Maybe we should BEGIN our discussion focused on the MEANING
of Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-10

.

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't reject what the Bible says.

When I present SCRIPTURE and you reject that Scripture (like Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-100
then you are not REJECTING my comments... you are REJECTING Scripture.

Your equating of everything you say with what the Bible says and then stating that if I or anyone else rejects what you say then we are rejecting what the Bible says is born out of pride, and is a very bad way of discussing anything because normally it will get the person you are talking to to close up to anything you say.

Then tell me WHAT Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 reveals about Biblical Truth
during the "Time-of-the-End"


Your lack of understanding does not negate Scripture

I agree with you regarding the sealed things - but they will only be revealed when the 7th trumpet sounds.

No... again you ASSUME.
The Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"


You ADDED the part about the 7th Trumpet.
Your "feelings" are not supported by Scripture.


I will now TELL YOU the chronology of the end-times
You can then initiate a discussion about ANY comment
And I will support the comment with harmony of Scripture.


We agree (I hope) that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" came after the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
And the Christian Kingdom continued throughout the Great Commission of the Church Age...
until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28]


However, AFTER the "End of the Age".... AFTER the Great Commission is completed
and ALL THE SAINTS have been "sealed" (saved)... see Rev 7:1-3...


The next "Beast/Kingdom" on earth is the FOURTH BEAST...
the Revelation Beast or the Great Tribulation or Satan's "Little Season"


Maybe we should discuss the FOURTH BEAST on earth...
what do you think that represents?

Note: That man of sin has not been revealed yet.

Maybe not to you.

The sealed mystery will not be revealed until the 7th trumpet is about to sound.

The time when the 7th Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]
is also shown as the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12]
and as the "Time-of-the-End"


The Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"
that is BEFORE the 7th Trumpet sounds....


That is the time after the 2nd Woe "is past"...
but before the 3rd Woe begins:


Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[after the "Season and Time" or the "Time-of-the-End"]

But know this, Satan's little season that is coming is not his last.

In your "gospel"...
that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

The adversary in the Kingdom of the King will be permitted by the King until he is either bound and locked in a dungeon where he is able to do no more harm, or destroyed completely. The adversary has not experienced either yet.

LOL..
What Scripture teaches that?

.