Unclean meats

[EastCoastRemnant]

Where, oh where does the Bible back up what you said here? Eating unclean meat was a salvational issue for an Israelite, and was never said to be about health.

The first mention of clean/unclean animals was in Genesis with the flood story.... long before there was an Israelite.

 

[help_the_lord]

Turn with me to Leviticus chapter 11 verses 26-28

26 Concerning all the animals which divide the hoof, but do not make a split hoof, or which do not chew cud, they are unclean to you: whoever touches them becomes unclean.
27 Also whatever walks on its paws, among all the creatures that walk on all fours, are unclean to you: whoever touches their carcasses becomes unclean until evening,
And the one who picks up their carcasses shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening; they are unclean to you.

This is just one example of the countless examples of unclean animals... I didn’t pick this for any reason other than it had a specific piece of text that we’re going to use for a comparison study.

And that text is “By these, moreover, you will be made unclean: whoever touches their carcasses becomes unclean until evening.”

So touching these animals in there dead form for instance a pork chop makes you unclean until evening, so now are quest is to find another law with the same implication that we simply avoid entirely, because as James says For whoever keepers the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

For this we are going to Leviticus 15 Starting with verse 19 and please excuse me in advance for the nature of this law I didn’t write it Im just going to use it to correctly illustrate my point.

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
20 Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.
Skipping to 22 And whoever touches anything on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.
23. Whether it be on the bed or on the thing on which she is sitting, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening.

The key text in here is obviously anyone who touch’s her or sits where she sits shall be unclean until evening. This is exactly the same implication that touching unclean food brings. Now I don’t know about you but it’s not in my custom to walk up to every women I talk to and ask them if there on their monthly cycle before I give them a hug, shake there hand or sit where they were seated.

That means I’ve been guilty of being unclean until evening pretty much my whole life. And so have all of you. Which brings me back to James 2 which is unfortunately unavoidable, For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. You don’t get to just pick and choose which laws you will and won’t follow especially if they concern the same thing. In this case becoming unclean. That would be like if you said to the judge sure I shop lifted but I didn’t steal any cars. Do you think he’s going to let you go, or simply say stealing is stealing, you do the crime you pay the time? My guess is the later.

it’s also easy to show throw Jesus’s own words that it has no implication in our walk

It’s found in Mark 7 starting at verse 14
And after he called the multitude to him again, He began saying to them, Listen to me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside the man which going into him can defile him: but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
17 And when leaving the multitude He had entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
18 And he said to them, are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him? (By the way defile means to make unclean)
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated *then in parenthesis it says thus he declared all foods clean.

If your one of those people who wants to say put it into context Rob he’s speaking of unwashed hands… I would have to argue that you’re missing the boat on this passage. For it says Nothing (that is by definition no thing; not anything) outside the man going in can defile him, not nothing eaten with unwashed hands nothing period, then once again it follows up it says do you not understand that whatever (that is any or any one of a number of things whether specifically known or not goes into the man not whatever eaten with dirty hands cannot defile him.

Once again I want to stop a second before you try to counter my point using alcohol or drugs. The passage does not say whatever goes in cannot cause harm, for we even know pork in excess can be harmful, it says it cannot make you unclean, there is a huge difference; both in intent and in application.

this law helps to illustrate another key point, some of the laws had nothing to do with the stuff they were written about instead they were put into the bible to be a shadow.

This one for instance is made manifest in acts 10 where peter has the dream with all the unclean animals, in which God told him to kill at eat them. We find out later it was referring to sharing the Gospel of Christ with the gentiles that would later come to his door.

This after all was the original purpose of the food laws, to be a shadow of things to come in Christ which is why Paul said in Colossians 2 16-17 no one is your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ

So to sum this up I’ll use Romans 14: 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean

 

[numlock321]

i would try to ask about mark 7:14

yes it is correct that nothing from the out side that goes inside cannot defile a person.. but the point is that it talks about CLEAN animals that are considered as food..

the bible was clear in distinguishing what kind of animals are FOOD and what kind are not..

even you cook and prepare as FOOD from the list of UNCLEAN animals it will not be still considered as FOOD from the bible..

 

[ricker]

The first mention of clean/unclean animals was in Genesis with the flood story.... long before there was an Israelite.

And the first clean/unclean distinction must not have been about eating, but about sacrifices, since meat wasn't given to man to eat yet.

When animals were given to man to eat after the flood, God said it was OK to eat anything that moves.

Scripture upon request.

 

[ricker]

i would try to ask about mark 7:14

yes it is correct that nothing from the out side that goes inside cannot defile a person.. but the point is that it talks about CLEAN animals that are considered as food..

the bible was clear in distinguishing what kind of animals are FOOD and what kind are not..

even you cook and prepare as FOOD from the list of UNCLEAN animals it will not be still considered as FOOD from the bible..

Mark 7:14 certainly does not say anything about clean animals, as you say it does.


Mark 7:14 says nothing about food, clean or unclean. It doesn't even specify meat. It says "nothing that enters a person from the outside"!

 

[numlock321]

And the first clean/unclean distinction must not have been about eating, but about sacrifices, since meat wasn't given to man to eat yet.

When animals were given to man to eat after the flood, God said it was OK to eat anything that moves.

Scripture upon request.

Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

what about that? eaten and not to be eaten

 

[ricker]

Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

what about that? eaten and not to be eaten

The laws God gave the Israelites in Leviticus include all sorts of things about sores, and sacrifices, and feasts, and women's monthly periods, and such, that you probably don't pay much attention to. I haven't seen any Biblical indication the clean/unclean meat laws shouldn't be treated as just as obsolete as these, (nailed to the cross, you know).

 

[ricker]

Countries like Japan eat vastly less meat then countries in the west and when meat is on the table it is in smaller portions generally speaking. That is one reason why Japan has a much lower rate of heart disease and related ailments. When they emigrate to the west and adopt the western diet they have similar health related issues.

While pork gets the great majority of the discussion it is all unclean foods that is relevant, including clams, lobster, and shrimp. Obesity isn't the sole issue with eating unclean meats, many ailments come from eating them. I knew someone who mysteriously had bouts of gout after ignoring his doctor and eating shellfish. The digestive tract of scavangers passes all the pollutants it injests into its muscle which is then passed on to whoever eats it. That is why it is so important to cook pork so thoroughly so as you will be eating dead parasitic worms rather than live ones.

So smaller portions of the unclean meats is the answer?

I agree us Americans eat too much, but methinks fries and hamburgers and Little Debbies have at least as much to do with it as shrimp does.

I brought a fit non-adventist friend to an SDA potluck fellowship thing once, and he later commented on how the SDA diet sure didn't seem to correlate into skinny people.

 

[numlock321]

So smaller portions of the unclean meats is the answer?

I agree us Americans eat too much, but methinks fries and hamburgers and Little Debbies have at least as much to do with it as shrimp does.

I brought a fit non-adventist friend to an SDA potluck fellowship thing once, and he later commented on how the SDA diet sure didn't seem to correlate into skinny people.

as stated above.. it was clear there was a dinstinction between fit to eat and not fit to eat..

try ask your doctor about the known unclean animals if it is fit to eat..

 

[ricker]

as stated above.. it was clear there was a dinstinction between fit to eat and not fit to eat..

try ask your doctor about the known unclean animals if it is fit to eat..

Cut to the chase. Is eating Bacos on your salad really worse than having Little Debbies 6 times a day for a snack?

If you want to make the issue about health, what basis do you have to stand on? Does the Bible ever say clean/unclean is about health? There are probably hundreds upon hundreds of processed foods that are more unhealthy than a ham sandwhich.

Healthy is good. Ignoring all the places in the NT where it is said we don't have to follow the clean/unclean rules is not.

 

[numlock321]

Cut to the chase. Is eating Bacos on your salad really worse than having Little Debbies 6 times a day for a snack?

If you want to make the issue about health, what basis do you have to stand on? Does the Bible ever say clean/unclean is about health? There are probably hundreds upon hundreds of processed foods that are more unhealthy than a ham sandwhich.

Healthy is good. Ignoring all the places in the NT where it is said we don't have to follow the clean/unclean rules is not.

all im saying it was very clear that there was a distinction between the animals that are considered as FOOD

 

[ricker]

all im saying it was very clear that there was a distinction between the animals that are considered as FOOD

In the laws given to the Israelites along with the unclean sores and other strange laws, yes.



Before the Isrelites, and after the time of the nation of Israel, it was like this:

2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.