Unclean Meats vs Wisdom

[k4c]

Under the Old Covenant, God's people were under a system called, the law. The law consisted of blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience. It was a system that taught God's people to stay away from things that were intrinsically harmful and sinful.

Intrinsic: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing.

This behavior modification was motived and enforced by fear of the death penalty.

Under the New Covenant we are free from the, do or die, system of teaching but not from the intrinsic harm these very same things cause. The punishment will no longer come from God, but rather, the intrinsically harmful nature of these things will bring the cursings. But, in the eyes of God, we are free to choose without the fear of punishment from God.

Listen to what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

All meats are lawful because both the meats and the stomach are going to be destroyed in the end anyway. But even so, these things are not helpful so it would be wise to abstain. Notice how the meat may not be helpful to the body but it's use is lawful and moderation is wise but sexual immorality is not lawful and has an eternal consequence.

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

Exercise and caring for our body is important and good to do for a better life but remember, this body is still going to be destroyed in the end anyway so the things we are warned about are not what we eat or drink, but rather, the ungodly things.

1Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Why this change in the food laws?

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Eating unclean meats are still intrinsically harmful in the long run so, though we are free, we don't want to be brought under their power through their over use.

Abstinence is still the best health message from God...

 

[Kira Light]

I believe I have seen you post on this forum before that eating pork will cost you your salvation. Am I wrong on that, or have you had a change of opinion?

 

[k4c]

I believe I have seen you post on this forum before that eating pork will cost you your salvation. Am I wrong on that, or have you had a change of opinion?

I have always been against the health message being a salvation issue. I don't believe drinking wine or wearing jewelry is the sin either. I did say that if something is called sin, when God doesn't call it sin, it will still harden the heart. At least this is what I remember saying. I think one of my threads a while back was called, health message or health ministry.

 

[Princessdi]

You know, k4c, i believe that is where we lost the ability to be at the fore front of the "health message" so to speak. By tying it to one's savation we lost crediblity. I iam in Northern California, and there are vegan atheists here who can live the SDA "health message" better than any SDA you know.

But as you say, much of sin came with their own instrinsic consequences. There is no lightning strikes, no stonings. no ground openings to swallow sinners. If we think in terms of Godbeing Our heavenly Father and really understanding it, we would realize that Just as earthly parents, God has given us a way to go that will save us from undue heart, from negative consequences. When we go against the way we were taught, it often causes heartache and hurt that might have been avoided had we stayed on the path.

I have always been against the health message being a salvation issue. I don't believe drinking wine or wearing jewelry is the sin either. I did say that if something is called sin, when God doesn't call it sin, it will still harden the heart. At least this is what I remember saying. I think one of my threads a while back was called, health message or health ministry.

 

[JohnMarsten]

IMHO

I never ever really followed the health message, naturally I dont eat pork nor other unclean animals, even though I am no longer that convinced about it, just got used to this way of life...

But the health message goes much further than that and I dont think I need to elaborate on that, we all know that a vegetarian diet is recommended and many of those who become vegetarians try to become vegans for whatever reasons... yeah, what are those reasons that push a person to such a thinking...???

Its church doctrine! People assume that is the way to go, again causing division... someone told that EGW has written meat eaters wont inherit the kingdom.. I have never seen that passage, so I cant rightly say its true or what the so-called context is...

but then what does the bible say in regard to that matter?

Rom. 14:2,3 -- One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.


According to this verses we have an answer which should be binding, those who are weak may build their faith through abstinence, that is how I understand it... and not eating meat shouldnt be even advocated...

Of course EGW wrote about that masturbation thing which I dont believe to be in any way connected to meat, some people claim (maybe they have read in EGW) that abstaining from meat helps them control their sexual desires

but the bible says:

Col. 2:20-23 -- Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, (the law) why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[ricker]

IMHO


Of course EGW wrote about that masturbation thing which I dont believe to be in any way connected to meat, some people claim (maybe they have read in EGW) that abstaining from meat helps them control their sexual desires

There are maybe some marrried couple who are reading this that are thinking to themselves that maybe they will load up on the hamburger next trip to the grocery store!

 

[E.T.Elijah]

I pose a question. Will we still slaughter animals for food in Heaven? If no, then another question would be, why then are we not preparing our lives to live in Heaven. If yes, then does the Bible lie when it says that there will be no more death?

 

[JohnMarsten]

I cant believe some actually came up with this example (no offence please)

I know a brother who told me the same, well, I dont know where this reasoning comes from...

OKAY then, you are talking about heaven and preparing for that... allright...

is there gonna be marriage in heaven, why not prepare right here and live a life without marriage?? you getting my point??

Paul, apparently thought, (so people say) that the coming of the Lord was close, so did the whole early church ( I might be wrong on that), or at least they wouldnt have suspected another two thousand years to pass by, why didnt they prepare??

You see, your argument is a little bit well, are there gonna be taxes in heaven, why not prepare??

Are there gonna be illnesses?? why not prepare and not get sick??

I pose a question. Will we still slaughter animals for food in Heaven? If no, then another question would be, why then are we not preparing our lives to live in Heaven. If yes, then does the Bible lie when it says that there will be no more death?

 

[E.T.Elijah]

I cant believe some actually came up with this example (no offence please)

I know a brother who told me the same, well, I dont know where this reasoning comes from...

OKAY then, you are talking about heaven and preparing for that... allright...

is there gonna be marriage in heaven, why not prepare right here and live a life without marriage?? you getting my point??

Paul, apparently thought, (so people say) that the coming of the Lord was close, so did the whole early church ( I might be wrong on that), or at least they wouldnt have suspected another two thousand years to pass by, why didnt they prepare??

You see, your argument is a little bit well, are there gonna be taxes in heaven, why not prepare??

Are there gonna be illnesses?? why not prepare and not get sick??

Hey thanks for being sarcastic...I guess I don't need to take offense because you used those cute smiley faces to hide your attack. I was merely trying to get people to think outside this world. My point is why people think it is ok to eat, drink, drug, sex, act however they want as Christians with no thought of how we will be living in Heaven. Most don't think about how we live as Christians. How often Christians live like they are part of the world and not seperate from it. And that is the exact reason why the world treats Christianity with such contempt and hatred. They see us preach a holy God and holy living and then see us live a worldly life that contradicts the principles of our messege. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between a follower of Christ and a non-believer because all to often their tone, conversations, actions towards others and the things they choose to watch, read, listen to, and participate in show no seperation. What I do not understand is why so called Christians search for exemptions to live like the rest of the world rather than look for ways to please God now and in the Kingdom to come.

 

[JohnMarsten]

right, life is too short to take offense...

I agree with you being a christian nowadays aint easy (probably never was). as for me I dont seek any exemptions (hopefully) I just dont want to make the road any raggier than it already is. Each day has its own problems and Jesus told us not to worry about what we should eat and stuff. I must admit that over the years I faced many problems regarding diet. WHen I compare myself to the rest of the christian population food has become a problem. WHile others simply eat what they like, i have to make a distinction between clean and unclean meats - check. Many of my meals look the same, eating cottage cheese almost everyday (not that I would dislike that but still variety is missing as I dont like all foods especially those SDA substitutes) but then if I were to get rid of meats at all, variety would even lessen, and if that step is not required for salvation, then why bother?? Besides I dont like stuff like that masturbation kinda thing or sexual desires something when the bible claims otherwise.

In regard to alcohol I amthinking the same, of course I wouldnt wanna be drinking in the streets with some hobos and stuff but tomorrow for example I am invited to a wedding party (catholic style ... so there will be drinking, eating and dancing the only thing that will take care of is to abstain from unclean animals as there will definitely be some porkers served,

a good SDA would naturally be very much on the outside at such a party

Hey thanks for being sarcastic...I guess I don't need to take offense because you used those cute smiley faces to hide your attack. I was merely trying to get people to think outside this world. My point is why people think it is ok to eat, drink, drug, sex, act however they want as Christians with no thought of how we will be living in Heaven. Most don't think about how we live as Christians. How often Christians live like they are part of the world and not seperate from it. And that is the exact reason why the world treats Christianity with such contempt and hatred. They see us preach a holy God and holy living and then see us live a worldly life that contradicts the principles of our messege. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between a follower of Christ and a non-believer because all to often their tone, conversations, actions towards others and the things they choose to watch, read, listen to, and participate in show no seperation. What I do not understand is why so called Christians search for exemptions to live like the rest of the world rather than look for ways to please God now and in the Kingdom to come.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I tend to agree with John here. Jesus was our example in all things, yet He ate fish and lamb that we know about, maybe other clean meats as well. He was preparing to ascend into Heaven and yet there is no mention of Him abstaining from meat or instructing His followers to. If Jesus ate clean meats and was sinless, then it cannot be a salvational issue today.

I don't think anyone would argue that eating less meat is more health savvy, but the condemnation and judgement within the church over the food issue is not what was intended by sister White when she spoke it.

 

[NNSV]

I thought k4c was trying to say that eating unclean meat (or meat at all) is in itself not necessarily hell-worthy, and will not necessarily cause one to lose one's salvation, but is important for the health of the body (and consequently the mind and soul.)

I think the general message is that even though we are under grace, and transgression of God's word/Law doesn't condemn us to Hell, it is still wise not to tempt one's self by doing things God said were unhealthy, unnatural, or especially immoral. If we are trying to be like Christ - clean and pure in body, mind and spirit - then we should also try to follow everything He did: this means following everything God tell us (even if we cannot possibly do it perfectly now.)

Christ may have eaten fish, but it was God-permitted clean meat. He certainly didn't go around eating pork chops and shrimp cocktail. He did everything perfectly: He fed His body with things that would enrich His body, not harm it. The food laws were written for our benefit, for our bodily enrichment and safety. Eating pork or shellfish isn't necessarily hell-worthy, but why tempt/pollute your body with the stuff?

If you keep lying, then it will pollute your mind. Eventually, it will become a salvation issue if the trend is kept. Likewise, polluting the body (which works with the mind and spirit) with harmful, unclean food and drink isn't necessarily hell-worthy, but could eventually lead to a salvation issue later on. Sexual immorality also pollutes the body, and while it in itself is not necessarily a hell-worth act (as per Christ's sacrifice, and God's grace,) if it is continued it will become a salvation issue (especially if unrepentant.)

 

[JohnMarsten]

I tend to agree with John here. Jesus was our example in all things, yet He ate fish and lamb that we know about, maybe other clean meats as well. He was preparing to ascend into Heaven and yet there is no mention of Him abstaining from meat or instructing His followers to. If Jesus ate clean meats and was sinless, then it cannot be a salvational issue today.

I don't think anyone would argue that eating less meat is more health savvy, but the condemnation and judgement within the church over the food issue is not what was intended by sister White when she spoke it.

yep, and what is best He ate fish after His resurrection, so...

Like I once posted, EGW apparently claimed meat eaters wont inherit the Kingdom...

Could anyone post where and if she had claimed/written stuff like that??

if so, this would be a serious issue in regard to what she intended

 

[E.T.Elijah]

ECR, in no way was I making condemnation or making the health messege a salvation issue. I was merely alluding to the question of will Jesus magically change the way we think at His second coming or is He using the Holy Spirit to do that now to prepare His people? Will eating clean/unclean in and of itself keep us out of Heaven? Of course not. But is it good common sense to follow principles set forth in the Bible for healthy living so that our bodies and minds can be used to their fullest by God. I am not stating that eating meat is wrong, I eat clean meats btw. But as someone who works in the healthcare field I can also see the benefits of the health principles of clean/unclean/vegetarian diets. God may have been on to something that modern science is just now coming around to finding out.

 

[E.T.Elijah]

I thought k4c was trying to say that eating unclean meat (or meat at all) is in itself not necessarily hell-worthy, and will not necessarily cause one to lose one's salvation, but is important for the health of the body (and consequently the mind and soul.)

I think the general message is that even though we are under grace, and transgression of God's word/Law doesn't condemn us to Hell, it is still wise not to tempt one's self by doing things God said were unhealthy, unnatural, or especially immoral. If we are trying to be like Christ - clean and pure in body, mind and spirit - then we should also try to follow everything He did: this means following everything God tell us (even if we cannot possibly do it perfectly now.)

Christ may have eaten fish, but it was God-permitted clean meat. He certainly didn't go around eating pork chops and shrimp cocktail. He did everything perfectly: He fed His body with things that would enrich His body, not harm it. The food laws were written for our benefit, for our bodily enrichment and safety. Eating pork or shellfish isn't necessarily hell-worthy, but why tempt/pollute your body with the stuff?

If you keep lying, then it will pollute your mind. Eventually, it will become a salvation issue if the trend is kept. Likewise, polluting the body (which works with the mind and spirit) with harmful, unclean food and drink isn't necessarily hell-worthy, but could eventually lead to a salvation issue later on. Sexual immorality also pollutes the body, and while it in itself is not necessarily a hell-worth act (as per Christ's sacrifice, and God's grace,) if it is continued it will become a salvation issue (especially if unrepentant.)

Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I was able to.

 

[NNSV]

(snip)God may have been on to something that modern science is just now coming around to finding out.

Hahahahahah... it seems like "God was on to something" about a lot of things He commanded that "science" is just now figuring out. Another "on to something" moment is the circumcision after 8 days. "Modern science" has determined a baby boy's highest coagulation is after 8 days, which means if you circumcise the baby it wont bleed to death, or get thrombosis.

Hmm... Maybe we should listen to everything He says?

 

[JohnMarsten]

ECR, in no way was I making condemnation or making the health messege a salvation issue. I was merely alluding to the question of will Jesus magically change the way we think at His second coming or is He using the Holy Spirit to do that now to prepare His people? Will eating clean/unclean in and of itself keep us out of Heaven? Of course not. But is it good common sense to follow principles set forth in the Bible for healthy living so that our bodies and minds can be used to their fullest by God. I am not stating that eating meat is wrong, I eat clean meats btw. But as someone who works in the healthcare field I can also see the benefits of the health principles of clean/unclean/vegetarian diets. God may have been on to something that modern science is just now coming around to finding out.

magically change?? prepare??

Each and every person that lived at all times was virtually as clost to salvation as we are, coz once we die time (I assume) has no more meaning,

 

[Joe67]

Under the Old Covenant, God's people were under a system called, the law. The law consisted of blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience. It was a system that taught God's people to stay away from things that were intrincally harmful and sinful.

Intrinsic: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing.

This behavior modification was motived and enforced by fear of the death penalty.

Under the New Covenant we are free from the, do or die, system of teaching but not from the intrinsic harm these very same things cause. The punishment will no longer come from God, but rather, the intrinsically harmful nature of these things will bring the cursings. But, in the eyes of God, we are free to choose without the fear of punishment from God.

Listen to what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

All meats are lawful because both the meats and the stomach are going to be destroyed in the end anyway. But even so, these things are not helpful so it would be wise to abstain. Notice how the meat may not be helpful to the body but it's use is lawful and moderation is wise but sexual immorality is not lawful and has an eternal consequence.

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

Exercise and caring for our body is important and good to do for a better life but remember, this body is still going to be destroyed in the end anyway so the things we are warned about are not what we eat or drink, but rather, the ungodly things.

1Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Why this change in the food laws?

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Eating unclean meats are still intrisically harmful in the long run so, though we are free, we don't want to be brought under their power through their over use.

Abstinence is still the best health message from God...

K4c,

Rom 14:14
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. KJV

In the beginning it was all good.

The Lord God "calls" into groups of clean and unclean. As with food, so with people.

The doctrine of objects being inherently, good or bad, clean or unclean, leads to idolatry and will worship. This brings us into some form of bondage and leads us to separate from our flesh, for fear of contamination.

Isa 65:5
5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. KJV

Joe