Unbiblical teachings from the church.

[jamiec]

Interesting debate but I can't help wondering as a complete layman whether the underlying question - which particular church has exclusive authority? - makes any sense. Wasn't the whole point of the incarnation and atonement that God has come to us directly so that we can now approach Him directly, as our Father, without needing any person or institution standing between us?

Tying to interpose anything between us and God seems to be going backwards into the religion of the Temple which needed high priests to go into the holy of holies because the ordinary people couldn't get close to God and survive the experience. It seems to reject the closeness of the relationship with our "Abba" which Jesus was encouraging us to embrace.

If God literally and spiritually tore down the curtain which separates us from Him when Jesus died, what sense does it make that He would go on to hang up a new curtain with its own high priests controlling access? And I include all churches in this, not just the Catholic church. Shouldn't we just learn from the combined example and wisdom of all Christians everywhere and make our own response? We won't all think identically but who says we should do?

But, it could be argued that the Bible "comes between" us and Christ - which is close to what some on the Radical wing of the Reformation argued, I think.

Even to possess the Bible, one has to rely on the mediation of archaeologists, translators, commentators, editors, proof-readers, binders, printers, booksellers, centuries of scholarly work and discussion, in order to have a copy of the Bible. The Church on Earth is made up of human beings - it is always "between" us and God, because there is no such thing as solo Christianity. To be a Christian at all, is inescapably to be part of a Body, if not on Earth, then certainly in Heaven.

In a very important sense, nothing is, nor can be, between the Christian and Christ - whether, like some Christian bodies, one dispenses with clergy entirely, or whether one is in a Church that is rich in clergy. Those who have a function as "mediators/middle men" in such Churches, are not obstacles to get through or over, let alone to get rid of; their function is to be like open doors - like things which perform their function by getting out of the way & not being in the way, as obstacles are.

The Temple Curtain, OTOH, was in the way - it was not an open door, enabling easy access from one room to another, but a barrier separating the Most Holy Place from the rest of the Temple. Christ, Who is present in the world through His Spirit, is subject to no such limitation. That is the difference between mediation in the Church - both of which things presuppose the action of the Omnipresent God - and the Temple Curtain.

This is worth a look: Why the tearing of the temple curtain is a bad thing

 

[ViaCrucis]

Interesting debate but I can't help wondering as a complete layman whether the underlying question - which particular church has exclusive authority? - makes any sense. Wasn't the whole point of the incarnation and atonement that God has come to us directly so that we can now approach Him directly, as our Father, without needing any person or institution standing between us?

Tying to interpose anything between us and God seems to be going backwards into the religion of the Temple which needed high priests to go into the holy of holies because the ordinary people couldn't get close to God and survive the experience. It seems to reject the closeness of the relationship with our "Abba" which Jesus was encouraging us to embrace.

If God literally and spiritually tore down the curtain which separates us from Him when Jesus died, what sense does it make that He would go on to hang up a new curtain with its own high priests controlling access? And I include all churches in this, not just the Catholic church. Shouldn't we just learn from the combined example and wisdom of all Christians everywhere and make our own response? We won't all think identically but who says we should do?

The Temple is now Christ and His Church, and He is also the Great High Priest, our Mediator.

It's not that we can now approach God directly without any mediation, it's that we meet God in and through Jesus, who presents us before the Father holy and just in Himself.

God is still God, He who said to Moses, "No one can see Me and live" is still Himself. What we have is not means to approach God by our own strength, power, or will; what we have is God giving Himself to us by coming down to meet us in Jesus Christ, and we have Christ and all of what Christ has done for us as pure grace through Word and Sacrament.

When we come to gather at Christ's Table, we are entering into the Holy of Holies by the blood of the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

It's not about which church has worthy minister (there are no worthy ministers, which is why we must always condemn Donatism as heresy because it puts God's grace behind a guarded door of human false righteousness. God Himself ministers to us through Word and Sacrament, the ministers who serve do so as servants of God and His Church, speaking the word of God and serving for the general good of all the Faithful.

What matters, however, is that the things of God are taught and received, that the Word is faithfully preached, the Sacraments rightly administered, for here is Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest who makes intercession for us and who stands between us and God to give us His Father as our Father, and to present us before His Father as joint-heirs and fellow sons and daughters by the grace of adoption.

I can only call God "Abba, Father" because of the union I have with Christ by God's grace which I have received in Word and Sacrament; in my baptism I have been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27) and united to Jesus in His death, burial, and resurretion (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12), and thus by the grace of God in Holy Baptism I am found in Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38); and now in Christ by the power of the Spirit I can call God "Abba, Father" because I am, with and in Christ alone, a child and heir with Him. But it is only through the mediation of Christ who stands between me, a sinner, and the Holy God--and who gives me His Father and who gives me to His Father. God is mine and I am God's in Christ alone, and in nothing of myself.

I can't approach the Inner Sanctuary--but Jesus can, and Jesus does, and in Jesus I and all the Faithful too are in the Holy of Holies By grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[wendykvw]

No it sure doesn’t but there is no way to know God apart from His revealed word

Actually according to Peter in the book of Acts 2:17
"In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams."

And according to multiple people across the world God speaks to people through dreams and visions. So it is possible without a bible.
God is a able to do the impossible.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Actually according to Peter in the book of Acts 2:17
"In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams."

And according to multiple people across the world God speaks to people through dreams and visions. So it is possible without a bible.
God is a able to do the impossible.

That was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Strong in Him]

That was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

The prophecy about the Spirit being poured out all people was fulfilled at Pentecost - so God can now live IN us.
But God can still speak to people in dreams and visions - and sometimes does.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does one cross over from mentioning things that need to be mentioned for the sake of historical truthfulness, to atrocity-swapping ?

You will know them by their fruits.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sure and everything points to His Kingdom, His will over the will of man, the point He has been trying to get across since the beginning.

So then His Kingdom has many doctrines

 

[timothyu]

So then His Kingdom has many doctrines

He simply says I Am. His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[jamiec]

You will know them by their fruits.

That is a pretty useless test, because people and societies yield very mixed fruits. The tree analogy, like the water analogy in the Letter of James, is a very poor analogy for how people behave. Neither of them is able to take account of the variety of behaviour that can come from a human person or set of persons. So the test by fruits is over-simple, & useless.

 

[timothyu]

Fruits : Orientation of good will... towards self or towards others? (not to be confused with claiming to have the best interest for others in mind)

 

[Strong in Him]

That is a pretty useless test, because people and societies yield very mixed fruits. The tree analogy, like the water analogy in the Letter of James, is a very poor analogy for how people behave. Neither of them is able to take account of the variety of behaviour that can come from a human person or set of persons. So the test by fruits is over-simple, & useless.

Only if you're assuming that fruit = deeds.
The fruit of the Spirit, which will only be shown by Spirit filled believers, is different.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a pretty useless test, because people and societies yield very mixed fruits. The tree analogy, like the water analogy in the Letter of James, is a very poor analogy for how people behave. Neither of them is able to take account of the variety of behaviour that can come from a human person or set of persons. So the test by fruits is over-simple, & useless.

Those were Christ’s words not mine.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The Temple is now Christ and His Church, and He is also the Great High Priest, our Mediator.

It's not that we can now approach God directly without any mediation, it's that we meet God in and through Jesus, who presents us before the Father holy and just in Himself.

God is still God, He who said to Moses, "No one can see Me and live" is still Himself. What we have is not means to approach God by our own strength, power, or will; what we have is God giving Himself to us by coming down to meet us in Jesus Christ, and we have Christ and all of what Christ has done for us as pure grace through Word and Sacrament.

When we come to gather at Christ's Table, we are entering into the Holy of Holies by the blood of the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

It's not about which church has worthy minister (there are no worthy ministers, which is why we must always condemn Donatism as heresy because it puts God's grace behind a guarded door of human false righteousness. God Himself ministers to us through Word and Sacrament, the ministers who serve do so as servants of God and His Church, speaking the word of God and serving for the general good of all the Faithful.

What matters, however, is that the things of God are taught and received, that the Word is faithfully preached, the Sacraments rightly administered, for here is Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest who makes intercession for us and who stands between us and God to give us His Father as our Father, and to present us before His Father as joint-heirs and fellow sons and daughters by the grace of adoption.

I can only call God "Abba, Father" because of the union I have with Christ by God's grace which I have received in Word and Sacrament; in my baptism I have been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27) and united to Jesus in His death, burial, and resurretion (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12), and thus by the grace of God in Holy Baptism I am found in Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38); and now in Christ by the power of the Spirit I can call God "Abba, Father" because I am, with and in Christ alone, a child and heir with Him. But it is only through the mediation of Christ who stands between me, a sinner, and the Holy God--and who gives me His Father and who gives me to His Father. God is mine and I am God's in Christ alone, and in nothing of myself.

I can't approach the Inner Sanctuary--but Jesus can, and Jesus does, and in Jesus I and all the Faithful too are in the Holy of Holies By grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone.

-CryptoLutheran

And as individuals we are Gods temple.

1Corinthians 3:!6
Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You will know them by their fruits.

Correct and fruit is how we treat others and love is the key. So those deeds( how we treat people) is the fruit that we bear/produce as we live by the spirit and not the flesh. As we see below its all relational.


Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other


1 Corinthians 13:1-8
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails

Love is the key and is known by how we Love God and others.


Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

John 17:23
I in them and You in Me--that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 3:12-17
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:1-12
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Correct and fruit is how we treat others and love is the key. So those deeds( how we treat people) is the fruit that we bear/produce as we live by the spirit and not the flesh. As we see below its all relational.


Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other


1 Corinthians 13:1-8
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails

Love is the key and is known by how we Love God and others.


Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

John 17:23
I in them and You in Me--that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 3:12-17
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:1-12
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!

Well this conversation all started on the subject of the Roman Catholic line of succession. Then it branched into comparing the validity of the Eastern Orthodox Church’s claim to apostolic line of succession vs Rome’s claim of apostolic succession based on the number of members each church has which was why I made the point that “you will know them by their fruits”. The point of mentioning that quote was to bring to mind the fruits of both churches that took place after the schism. Which direction was each church going at that time? Which I believe is a very valid piece of information that should be considered above membership numbers. I’ve been very reluctant to mention this but what effect on membership should we expect to see as a result of the inquisitions that began just 130 years after the schism, lasted for 686 years, and was sanctioned by 99 Roman Catholic popes and what is the evidence of their fruit? And how does that compare to the fruits of the Eastern Orthodox Church? That’s the point I was reluctantly trying to make.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Well this conversation all started on the subject of the Roman Catholic line of succession. Then it branched into comparing the validity of the Eastern Orthodox Church’s claim to apostolic line of succession vs Rome’s claim of apostolic succession based on the number of members each church has which was why I made the point that “you will know them by their fruits”. The point of mentioning that quote was to bring to mind the fruits of both churches that took place after the schism. Which direction was each church going at that time? Which I believe is a very valid piece of information that should be considered above membership numbers. I’ve been very reluctant to mention this but what effect on membership should we expect to see as a result of the inquisitions that began just 130 years after the schism, lasted for 686 years, and was sanctioned by 99 Roman Catholic popes and what is the evidence of their fruit? And how does that compare to the fruits of the Eastern Orthodox Church? That’s the point I was reluctantly trying to make.

Thanks for clarifying !

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a pretty useless test, because people and societies yield very mixed fruits. The tree analogy, like the water analogy in the Letter of James, is a very poor analogy for how people behave. Neither of them is able to take account of the variety of behaviour that can come from a human person or set of persons. So the test by fruits is over-simple, & useless.

I think it’s very relevant to the particular discussion when we’re trying to determine which church was continuing in the apostolic teachings of Christ. Much more relevant than membership numbers.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I think it’s very relevant to the particular discussion when we’re trying to determine which church was continuing in the apostolic teachings of Christ. Much more relevant than membership numbers.

Personally I don't think any of them followed the church in Acts.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And as individuals we are Gods temple.

1Corinthians 3:!6
Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

I think the first passage from 1 Corinthians is intended corporately--we, as the Church, are God's temple; while the second does say we, individually, are temples (or specifically, that our bodies are temples, since the Holy Spirit makes His habitation in us).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[com7fy8]

Personal relationship.

It depends on what you mean by this.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

If a person has been joined to Jesus so he or she is "one spirit with Him", I would say this has the person in a very personal relationship with Jesus, in actual spiritual union with Him. And in oneness with Jesus we relate personally with Him . . . in actual connection with Him . . . as He calls "all" to do >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

In Jesus Christ's "yoke" we are in personal connection with Jesus Himself . . . "one spirit with Him".

So, what do you mean? What you mean by "personal relationship" could be unscriptural. But here I have offered what is in the Bible. You might offer what would be scriptural, so we can compare this with whatever you disagree with.