Ultimate Blasphemy?

[AlbertaBoy]

The OP was about Mary in relation to communion. That's what I was discussing, but you didn't want to hear what I had to say about it.

By the way, the ultimate blasphemy is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Can you answer this question for me?
http://www.christianforums.com/t541...ings-god-did-for-the-blessed-virgin-mary.html

I guess it must have some people stumped because I still haven't gotten even 1 response from it yet.

Perhaps you haven't gotten a response from it yet, because of the way it is worded. It is actually a little hard to tell where you are leading there.

 

[CathNancy]

Jesus is our "ultimate" example. (see Jo.1:29)

Quite true, Jesus is our "ultimate" example, but Mary was the first and most perfect example of a life lived for the Glory of God.

I would also like to ask, if Jesus is our brother, then is not Mary our mother? Jesus made us heir to all that He has, His divine life, this does not mean that we are divine, His Father, His Spirit and His mother.

Nancy

 

[IamAdopted]

Quite true, Jesus is our "ultimate" example, but Mary was the first and most perfect example of a life lived for the Glory of God.

I would also like to ask, if Jesus is our brother, then is not Mary our mother? Jesus made us heir to all that He has, His divine life, this does not mean that we are divine, His Father, His Spirit and His mother.

Nancy

Mary was His mother according to the flesh. She is not my mother. Scripture tells us who is this and it is not Mary.

 

[CathNancy]

Correction to my post, I meant to say Mary was Jesus' first disciple and the most perfect example of a disciple who lived for the Glory of God.

My fingers got away from me.

Nancy

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Mary was His mother according to the flesh.

I don't know what point you are trying to make by that statement. I never denied that Jesus and Mary have the same flesh and DNA.

But what's so amazing is that God became flesh. God became a real man with a real human mother. At the moment of his conception, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time but one person. As it says in the Bible, He became like us in all things except sin.

She is not my mother. Scripture tells us who is this and it is not Mary.

I believe that Jesus gave the whole world His mother because He loved her so much that He wanted to share her with all of us.

Does Jesus not say that whoever does the will of the Father is Jesus' brother and sister? And if Jesus is our brother then wouldn't Mary be our mother?

Then it would make sense that when Jesus gave his mother to "the disciple whom he loves" that since Jesus loves all of His disciples that Jesus was giving Mary to all of His disciples to be the spiritual mother of us all.

Since Jesus is Love itself, I believe that Jesus loves His mother more perfectly than any other son has ever loved their mother. And the love that Jesus gives is everlasting. So I am very grateful to Jesus for giving me His mother to be my spiritual mother.

Do you doubt that God is capable of doing this for Mary?

 

[AlbertaBoy]

Quite true, Jesus is our "ultimate" example, but Mary was the first and most perfect example of a life lived for the Glory of God.

I would also like to ask, if Jesus is our brother, then is not Mary our mother? Jesus made us heir to all that He has, His divine life, this does not mean that we are divine, His Father, His Spirit and His mother.

Nancy

I don't understand why one would say Mary was "the first and most perfect example." "Most perfect" means the same as "ultimate;" and Jesus is "the most perfect example" of how we are to live our life "for the glory of God."

The Bible does not say how that Mary was "the most perfect example" either; and even if she was proved to be "first" in example, this would not denote preeminence to other human beings; and it certainly does not prove divinity. Jesus says to Mary, as well as to the rest of the human race: "Without Me, ye can do nothing." (Jo.15:5).

In this same text; our Lord says to Mary, as well as us: "I am the Vine, ye are the branches...he that abides in Me; and I in him..." so there can be no doubt that Jesus is the example for everyone to follow, and to "abide" in. Mary is not exempt from this requirement of the gospel. No scripture text says this kind of thing about Mary. (that she is "the most perfect" example for Christians to follow today).

Mary herself held no illusions that she was the “Mother of God” [words of Catholic origin only and part of the “Hail Mary”], for no member of the Godhead had an original mother. You cannot show otherwise from the Bible.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I don't understand why one would say Mary was "the first and most perfect example." "Most perfect" means the same as "ultimate;" and Jesus is "the most perfect example" of how we are to live our life "for the glory of God."

The point of Catholic teaching about Mary is that Mary was the first disciple of Jesus and is the ultimate example of a disciple of Jesus. That's the point that keeps getting away from Protestants. Jesus can't be his own ultimate disciple because Jesus is not a disciple. Jesus is God in the flesh.

So many Protestants want so badly to believe that Catholics worship Mary as a god that they hear Catholics say what we did not say and see us do what they don't understand.

 

[AlbertaBoy]

But what's so amazing is that God became flesh. God became a real man with a real human mother. At the moment of his conception, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time but one person. As it says in the Bible, He became like us in all things except sin.

Can you please show us the exact verse you refer to in the Bible? it seems that the Bible has a different opinion than what you have herein stated:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

I believe that Jesus gave the whole world His mother because He loved her so much that He wanted to share her with all of us.

Where does the Bible say that "Jesus gave the world His mother." ?? God gave us Jesus (Jo.3:16), and God also gave us Mary - it was God who delegated the angel Gabriel to visit Mary and tell her of God's plans for her life.

Then it would make sense that when Jesus gave his mother to "the disciple whom he loves" that since Jesus loves all of His disciples that Jesus was giving Mary to all of His disciples to be the spiritual mother of us all.

Jesus did not give His mother to the disciple, to be His literal mother. He was speaking to the fact that he was going to die soon, and that He wanted His disciple "whom he loves" to look after His mother's welfare. The disciples had their own mother; why would god toss their own mothers aside and give them all a new one? There is no Bible text that says Jesus gave Mary; His "mother" to be anyone else's "mother." That is not the Bible's description of the life and ministry of Mary.

 

[CathNancy]

Albertaboy did you see the correction to my post? After posting I realized that since I had left out a few key words, my meaning would be misunderstood.

Also I am a little confused, are you saying that Jesus was not fully man and fully God in one person?

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Can you please show us the exact verse you refer to in the Bible? it seems that the Bible has a different opinion than what you have herein stated:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin." (Hebrews Chapter 4, verse 15)

Jesus did not give His mother to the disciple, to be His literal mother. He was speaking to the fact that he was going to die soon, and that He wanted His disciple "whom he loves" to look after His mother's welfare.

Do you not consider yourself to be a disciple whom Jesus loves?

The disciples had their own mother; why would god toss their own mothers aside and give them all a new one?

I said that God gave Mary to us to be our spiritual mother. My biological mother happens to hate Christians. Jesus said he would not leave any of us as orphans, he meant this spiritually. Jesus said that we could call God "our Father". Jesus shares His Father with us, so why wouldn't Jesus also share His mother with us? God wants us to call Him "our Father", so why wouldn't God also provide us with a spiritual mother?

Remember that God can do all things, and any of us can do all things with the help of God's power and grace. So if God wants to exalt His human mother, God can do so because He is God.

In Jewish history, the queen was always the mother of the king. Jesus is the ultimate Jewish King. He is the Lord of lords. Jesus is God in the flesh, so it is fitting that He would crown His mother as Queen of Heaven which is what we see described in Revelation 12.

Please see my other post:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5419072-mary-and-the-ark-of-the-covenant.html

 

[Oblio]

Mary herself held no illusions that she was the “Mother of God” [words of Catholic origin only and part of the “Hail Mary”], for no member of the Godhead had an original mother.

No, it's not just a word of Catholic origin. The term predates the council that affirmed the Mary is the Theotokos, a term used to defeat the Nestorian heresy. It was a term in fact used by the early reformers, it is only modern evangelicals in their denial of ANYTHING Roman Catholic that have strayed from the teachings of their Fathers.

Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, ergo Mary is the Mother of God. Nestorians deny this Christological fact.

 

[Axion]

Mary was His mother according to the flesh. She is not my mother. Scripture tells us who is this and it is not Mary.

So what you are denying, in that statement, is that you are a "brother" of Jesus - or a part of His body. If you are a part of the Body of Christ or indeed one of Jesus's "brethren" then His mother is your mother.

 

[Iollain]

The OP was about Mary in relation to communion. That's what I was discussing, but you didn't want to hear what I had to say about it.

By the way, the ultimate blasphemy is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Can you answer this question for me?
http://www.christianforums.com/t541...ings-god-did-for-the-blessed-virgin-mary.html

I guess it must have some people stumped because I still haven't gotten even 1 response from it yet.

Does not stump me, Jesus and Mary are not at Communion, what do you call it when your saying Mary is there, when it is the Spirit?

Your past quote had nothing to do with the OP, it was about how the RCC think they have say in where Jesus will place Himself, and think they can tell God where to put His presence, maybe you can start your own thread about your subject.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Does not stump me, Jesus and Mary are not at Communion, what do you call it when your saying Mary is there, when it is the Spirit?

Your past quote had nothing to do with the OP, it was about how the RCC think they have say in where Jesus will place Himself, and think they can tell God where to put His presence, maybe you can start your own thread about your subject.

Mary's "yes" to Jesus was the first communion between God and humans. Jesus wanted all of us to receive Him into us as Mary did.

So we immitate Mary's first "yes" to God when we go up and receive Jesus under the appearance of bread and wine. We call this communion. Communion is a combination of two words "common" and "union".

Maybe you don't understand what I am talking about because you don't see the Eucharist as the real body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus.

 

[IamAdopted]

So what you are denying, in that statement, is that you are a "brother" of Jesus - or a part of His body. If you are a part of the Body of Christ or indeed one of Jesus's "brethren" then His mother is your mother.

No she is not.. For we are not to know men according to the flesh.
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Mat 12:47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

 

[Hentenza]

No, it's not just a word of Catholic origin. The term predates the council that affirmed the Mary is the Theotokos, a term used to defeat the Nestorian heresy. It was a term in fact used by the early reformers, it is only modern evangelicals in their denial of ANYTHING Roman Catholic that have strayed from the teachings of their Fathers.

Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, ergo Mary is the Mother of God. Nestorians deny this Christological fact.

You sure are trigger happy in calling someone Nestorian just because they don't agree with you.

 

[Nimrauko]

Enough name calling please. This is not a forum for demeaning others. Its not christian like, and also it goes against the rules of CF. Please return to debating on the OP and not name calling. Just dont want the admins getting on this post for breaking rules.

Please and thank you,
SMM

 

[TheDivaAngel]

Enough name calling please. This is not a forum for demeaning others. Its not christian like, and also it goes against the rules of CF. Please return to debating on the OP and not name calling. Just dont want the admins getting on this post for breaking rules.

Please and thank you,
SMM

NOTE who is doing the name calling...the good ole RCC's and EO's..nice black eye for them!

 

[Nimrauko]

NOTE who is doing the name calling...the good ole RCC's and EO's..nice black eye for them!

There is an equal ammount. This isnt a smear the RCC or EO, if you want to do that take it else where. I am reporting you and any who wish to further this non sense.

"A Nice Black Eye For Them". Just remember, nones past is white, so remember that when fingers of judgement are pointed at others. Four point back to you.

 

[ScottBot]

I want someone to point out where Oblio called anyone anything. One of the most ancient heresies in the church to be countered was Nestorianism. If you don't like it, maybe you should read up on your history of Christianity. Your fight is with the people who shed their very blood to ensure the good news of Christ was preserved, intact as given by Christ, through the ages. Making a mockery of their sacrifice is shameful.

It is very simple. Denying that Mary is the mother of God denies the eternally divine nature of Jesus. It doesn't elevate Mary to a position of divity herself, it merely acknowledges the simple fact the Jesus is God and Mary is His mother, make Mary the Mother of God. You can try as yo ulike to spin your way around it, but if you deny this very basic Christological fact, you have some shortcomings in your understanding of Christ. The only people who would consider this name-calling are those who are stuck in this syntactical conundrum.