U.S. military destroys soldier's Bibles

[psalm867]

Each soldier may be there "for such a time as this."

 

[ACougar]

Is there really such a thing as free speech in the military?

That's a complicated question. The answer is both no and yes,

In any case, since this is dealing with foreign citizens it is fundamentally a diplomatic issue. U.S. Soldiers are representatives of the U.S. government, so they shouldn't be proselytizing afghans unless that's the official government policy. Actually shouldn't be handing out literature to afghans, period, unless it's been approved by the higher ups. And to be clear the article is not talking about the soldier's personal bibles it's talking about ones that had been translated into local languages that were being used for prostelytization.

This isn't any different than any other Job. Look, here's what i do for a living: I'm a programmer working for a company that writes custom IT software on contract for clients. If I called up my boss's clients to try to to convert them to Deism, I'm sure I'd get fired, and rightfully so.

I'll admit, my reaction based on the feeling that I just don't want government involved in the off duty religious lives of soldiers even if that means their proselytizing in a place like Afghanistan. I often take a position based on instinct and then look for the logic to justify it later. Sometimes it's just not there and I have to change my position.

Somehow I think were spiting Liberty here, I'm really not a fan of what these guys were doing or their brand of Christianity, I just think/feel that were somehow dishonoring a core principle here.

 

[ACougar]

I agree this should be a huge story, but it seems like it's been suppressed somehow.

I don't know if anyone has seen this. This thread here might just be a follow-up but anyways.

Dangerous Talk

What is very disturbing is why hasn't any of our news station brought this to our attention? Isn't this newsworthy?

My mom watches the news ALL the time, since brother has been Iraq, and she said she hasn't heard about this, granted she could of missed the 1st or 2nd time it ran, but when I told her it was the first she had heard of it.

So I guess it's best that we let the Afghanistan's stick to what they know, like signing up for the suicide mission classes, training classes to go undercover to come into the US and blend in with the American's so they can take over a few more planes - I think you get my point.

This is heart wrenching to me, the people over there could benefit from learning the word of God.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

I agree this should be a huge story, but it seems like it's been suppressed somehow.

My opinion, how would it make the Military Officials look? We don't want anyone to think negatively of them.

I just wonder if all news affiliations were instructed not to air this story and who ordered them not to do so? Mind you I am only speculating here, but if it was the government officials would it mean now they are controlling what is to be reported and what is not?

I find it strangely odd we had to hear about this from a news reporter overseas.

 

[clarksided]

While I agree they broke military policy (and its a sensible policy) and should have had their Bibles confiscated, I don't agree with destroying them. I think that's going too far. Or at least don't publicize the fact that you destroyed them, geez. Save face in the public.

Could you imagine if they had confiscated Korans and destroyed them? There'd probably be 5 different videos threatening to blow America to smithereens. Now of course the people at places like onenewsnow are just feigning moral outrage, but still.

 

[Nathan45]

I'll admit, my reaction based on the feeling that I just don't want government involved in the off duty religious lives of soldiers even if that means their proselytizing in a place like Afghanistan. I often take a position based on instinct and then look for the logic to justify it later. Sometimes it's just not there and I have to change my position.

Somehow I think were spiting Liberty here, I'm really not a fan of what these guys were doing or their brand of Christianity, I just think/feel that were somehow dishonoring a core principle here.

Again, back to my analogy of a relationship between professional and client... if, after work hours, i started calling up my clients and trying to change their religion, that would still be inappropriate and my boss would give me an earful. I don't think it really matters that they're off duty, they're still representatives of the U.S. in the same way I'm a representative of my company, and their messaging should be on the same page as their supervisors.

The other problem i have with this, is that it really plays strait into the taliban/al-qaeda propoganda handbook... portraying the U.S. troops are "Crusaders" trying to destroy islam. This is the kind of things that would make the locals take up arms, which could indirectly lead to dead troops. IMO, In an place like afghanistan, winning the way is just as much about controling image as it is anything else and handing out bibles to the locals is simply insubordination.

 

[ACougar]

The fact that this isn't all over the news is simply stunning. It's absence tells us a whole lot about our news media.

My opinion, how would it make the Military Officials look? We don't want anyone to think negatively of them.

I just wonder if all news affiliations were instructed not to air this story and who ordered them not to do so? Mind you I am only speculating here, but if it was the government officials would it mean now they are controlling what is to be reported and what is not?

I find it strangely odd we had to hear about this from a news reporter overseas.

 

[ACougar]

The other problem i have with this, is that it really plays strait into the taliban/al-qaeda propoganda handbook... portraying the U.S. troops are "Crusaders" trying to destroy islam. This is the kind of things that would make the locals take up arms, which could indirectly lead to dead troops. IMO, In an place like afghanistan, winning the way is just as much about controling image as it is anything else and handing out bibles to the locals is simply insubordination.

That may be a part of the reason I'm not comfortable with the ban. Were basicly letting our enemies dictate our actions.

 

[Vehementi Dominus]

The US military should be seen there to be helping keep the Afghans safe from radical Islamic extremists, considering they're the enemy, handing out bibles is only gonna make it easier to recruit more into their ranks, and make them fight more ferverously, because they feel as though they have to defend their own religion from these Crusaders they see the US military as.

 

[Nathan45]

That may be a part of the reason I'm not comfortable with the ban. Were basicly letting our enemies dictate our actions.

Enemies aren't actually dictating the soldier's actions, it's the higher-ups in the military. Neither the Taliban nor individual soldiers with bibles dictate military policy in Afghanistan. I'm sure that if the taliban were dictating U.S. policy, they'd have the soldiers hand out as many bibles as they can, because it plays strait into their hands.

The higher ups in the military, with good reason, have dictated that U.S. troops are not to proslytize the locals. In my opinion, proselytizing Afghans is extremely unprofessional for a U.S. soldier. The soldiers are there to provide security and preaching christianity in an islamic stronghold is not going to bring that, if they wanted to bring christianity to the heathens they should have signed up with a missionary group not the U.S. army.

As it stands, the U.S. government is paying for their board, their protection and their own travel, and when they signed up for the military they agreed to the chain of command, which has every right to tell them not to undermine U.S. policy by trying to convert the locals to their religion.

 

[ACougar]

I think it's a little more (and less) complicated than that... were not there to keep Afghanies safe from radical extremists, were there to install and maintain a government that will protect us from the radical extremists.

We will have achieved success once the government is fully in control of it's territory and doesn't need us to prop it up with troops and money. We don't need them to like us, we just need them to get thier act together so we can leave. Officially we should be no respectors of religion, but if a few guys want to pass out Bibles or sing Hara Krishna songs outside the airport... that's what were about... that's a level of freedom they don't know.

The US military should be seen there to be helping keep the Afghans safe from radical Islamic extremists, considering they're the enemy, handing out bibles is only gonna make it easier to recruit more into their ranks, and make them fight more ferverously, because they feel as though they have to defend their own religion from these Crusaders they see the US military as.

 

[~Wisdom Seeker~]

Mod Hat On

Thread closed for staff revue
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[~Wisdom Seeker~]

Mod Hat On

Thread re-opened.
Mod Hat off​

 

[seashale76]

I'm of two minds on this. I am all for free speech and people following their convictions. However, I'm also all for people doing their jobs and adhering to the rules and regulations they agreed to follow. If any particular soldier is that convicted over sharing their faith, then I believe they would also be convicted to become a pacifist and wouldn't be in the military in the first place (or leave it at the first opportunity).

 

[SiderealExalt]

Given some of the subversion evangelical movements that have gripped certain parts of the military. I applaud their efforts and hope they discipline more soldiers who try the same.

 

[adent]

The US military should be seen there to be helping keep the Afghans safe from radical Islamic extremists, considering they're the enemy, handing out bibles is only gonna make it easier to recruit more into their ranks, and make them fight more ferverously, because they feel as though they have to defend their own religion from these Crusaders they see the US military as.

That pretty much sums it up.

Of course our soldiers should be able to do what they want to do in their spare time, unless it imperils the whole mission. The Afghans are not going to distinguish between a soldier on or off duty, they will see them as a representative of the United States military who is trying to convert people.

You don't even need an outspoken Mullah to misrepresent this; even if this is not the soldiers' intention, the Afghan people will see this as a continuation of the west trying to subjugate them and their religion.

Not exactly conducive to winning the hearts and minds of the local population (or that of the neighbouring nuclear-armed Pakistan)...

 

[~Wisdom Seeker~]

I'm of two minds on this. I am all for free speech and people following their convictions. However, I'm also all for people doing their jobs and adhering to the rules and regulations they agreed to follow. If any particular soldier is that convicted over sharing their faith, then I believe they would also be convicted to become a pacifist and wouldn't be in the military in the first place (or leave it at the first opportunity).

Well, you make a good argument. It's been made before of course. "Should I obey God's commands or man's?" Age old question.

Guess it depends on who you (not you personally, the philosophical "you") would rather get in trouble with.

 

[SiderealExalt]

That pretty much sums it up.

Of course our soldiers should be able to do what they want to do in their spare time, unless it imperils the whole mission. The Afghans are not going to distinguish between a soldier on or off duty, they will see them as a representative of the United States military who is trying to convert people.

You don't even need an outspoken Mullah to misrepresent this; even if this is not the soldiers' intention, the Afghan people will see this as a continuation of the west trying to subjugate them and their religion.

Not exactly conducive to winning the hearts and minds of the local population (or that of the neighbouring nuclear-armed Pakistan)...

*NODS* Combine that with the evangelical movement that has already tainted the military, and it begins to paint an ugly picture.

 

[~Wisdom Seeker~]

*NODS* Combine that with the evangelical movement that has already tainted the military, and it begins to paint an ugly picture.

Well, my ex was in the U.S.A.F., my best friend in the Army, and the thing I found most prevelent as far as could be called "tainting", was perhaps alcoholism, adultery and the excessive use of profanity. No offense to our troops. I of course am not saying they all do it. But, imo, it's a more noticeable by-product that could be considered "tainting" . But, "Evangelical movement tainting"?. ...nope, never heard of that... in real life that is.

I'm sure you have your reasons for believing something like that. And I'm not discounting your opinion. It's just that in my experience, I never came across it.

 

[SiderealExalt]

Well, my ex was in the U.S.A.F., my best friend in the Army, and the thing I found most prevelent as far as could be called "tainting", was perhaps alcoholism, adultery and the excessive use of profanity. No offense to our troops. I of course am not saying they all do it. But, imo, it's a more noticeable by-product that could be considered "tainting" . But, "Evangelical movement tainting"?. ...nope, never heard of that... in real life that is.

I'm sure you have your reasons for believing something like that. And I'm not discounting your opinion. It's just that in my experience, I never came across it.

I would add, and more importantly. There is a sexual harassment problem against female soldiers in the military.

And that would be because there isn't much talked about it in the civilian arena. The current military activities in the Middle East has brought the issue somewhat to the forefront because of some of these military figures straight out calling their fight a "Crusade" and have made overt efforts to convert people during military activities. The Air Force Academy has been called by some a seminar.

As a former member of the military I'm rather glad that the Obama administration is among other things, looking to get rid of DADT, and I suspect, will also be dealing with this religious issue.