U.S. Babylon in Prophecy ?

I still see that the beasts of Daniel, joined together to confirm a covenant of peace in the middle east, would add up to the first beast of Revelation.

Daniel Beast 1 -- The U.S. (and Britian?) that was a lion (ruled by a King) and was made to stand like a man (democracy)

Daniel Beast 2 -- Communist Russia/Bear

Daniel Beast 3 -- The U.N. (leopard)

Daniel Beast 4 -- The new E.U. (rebuilt Rome)

Add them up!!! Seven heads and ten horns.

I see Satan using this "quartet" to make his thrust at the Jews. No treaty has been signed, but via the U.N. a unilateral covenant has been undertaken to bring/force peace, and, to me, the clock is ticking.

cbk said:

I still see that the beasts of Daniel, joined together to confirm a covenant of peace in the middle east, would add up to the first beast of Revelation.

Daniel Beast 1 -- The U.S. (and Britian?) that was a lion (ruled by a King) and was made to stand like a man (democracy)

Daniel Beast 2 -- Communist Russia/Bear

Daniel Beast 3 -- The U.N. (leopard)

Daniel Beast 4 -- The new E.U. (rebuilt Rome)

Add them up!!! Seven heads and ten horns.

I see Satan using this "quartet" to make his thrust at the Jews. No treaty has been signed, but via the U.N. a unilateral covenant has been undertaken to bring/force peace, and, to me, the clock is ticking.

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Well, the peace agreement should not necessarily lead to a thrust at the Jews, God's end times could have more mysteries ahead. Things may not go along that route.
You seem to imply that the Palestinians would seek more confrontation after a peace deal? And who would back them among the four with material support?

Israel is NOT ALONE without support and her allies, US etc, are stronger than the UN and EU.

Another INTERESTING POINT is that we see that THE UN is a very weak beast- FOR all beasts have had and typically HAVE conquering
ability but maybe this end times involves some beasts exert influence not necessarily
militarily. The UN typically has peacekeeping forces DRAWN UP from ALL NATIONS, and is not allied to/against a particular nation. It is not a straightforward ROMAN EMPIRE type but more of a Global theoretically seeking the well being OF ALL NATIONS, though conflicts occur at times involving certain deeply religious-ethnic historical conflicts as we see in the Jewish-Palestine situation. Of course, the major powers also exert more influence on the UN via the security council.

BUT IT GETS more interesting because the SAME USA, UK, RUSSIA and China etc are separate beasts with power over the UN beast via SECURITY COUNCIL VETOES hence this adds more depth to the end time Beast situation.
Never has a beast been CONTROLLED WHILE IT EXISTS AS A BEAST by other EXISTING BEASTS side by side. Typically the BEASTS RISE AND FALL one after the other but again, our end time is a shade more complicated as compared to the old ASSYRIAN, NEXT BABYLONIAN, THEN FOLLOWED BY MEDO=PERSIAN, GIVING WAY TO GREECE ETC

These Beasts DID NOT REIGN SIDE BY SIDE hence that makes it again difficult to see how our end time Beasts exist and exert power AT THE SAME PERIODS OF TIME.
THAT seems to be a major difference between the 21st century beasts AND THE BEASTS
OF OLD.

Atkin said:

Did the Islamic empire have a tight grip over dominions as Imperial Rome, or


The leopard-bear-lion beast would involve some other powers with Islamic nations.

In fact, a number of end time interpretations do not have Islamic nations as part of that Beast.
Of course the ten horns of the Beast Revelation 13: 1 are speculated by many as European group of nations etc. Taking a look at the military behaviour of most of the major continental European nations, one would be hard pressed to see another Adolf Hitler type swarming across europe and the middle east..... most of those nations are dead tired of wars.

A interesting interpretation actually describes the beast as the world powers from

the post 17th century times till recent times. Revelation 13 describes a Beast whose life runs over a few centuries.

THE BRITISH EMPIRE would have to be some form of a beast considering its range of control spanning all the continents at some point.

THE USA obtained independence from the British empire in late 18th century and grew up to become MORE POWERFUL THAT Britain by mid 20th century

RUSSIA WAS ALSO gaining dominions in eastern europe and even in Africa

Once Germany was defeated, AMERICA AND THE SOVIET UNION then became the main global superpowers

and surely THIS DRAMATIC ARMS RACE, NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON threat of Kennedy-Kruschev, THE STAR WARS, ARMS RACE, AND MAD SPACE RACE must be part of God's prophecy.

HOWEVER, WE SEE THAT SOVIET UNION has fallen apart, Russia has become less powerful, Britain is now supported by the USA hence the Beast could be would be more defined by the 10 horns REVELATION 17:12-13.

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Yes, it is true that a number of end-time interpretations do not have Islam as a major player, but look at what is before your eyes on the map and on the television right now, and trust that.

The scenerio for the Trilateral Commission's and Council on Foreign Relations ten economic zones is also a pretty good scenerio to observe since it does fit the scripture about the kings that have not recieved a kingdom exxcept for one hour (two weeks) by the dragon. If you follow the money, you find the power in the world. We have been hearing New World Order for some time now, and I am convinced it exists as a shadow government that has failed to control the agents of Islam and Israel in its scheme to dominate for the dragon. Ofcourse we know that he (the dragon) will fail to rule the world and have us all worship him, but identifying him will be as tricky as it has always been.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Commenting on the U.S. and Britain in prophecy as a beast - the two horns of the beast that looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon would be Britain and the U.S. Speaking like a dragon seems to be our specialty with pornography and abortion, while all the while claiming the name of Christ - the lamb of God.

Atkin said:

Well, the peace agreement should not necessarily lead to a thrust at the Jews, God's end times could have more mysteries ahead. Things may not go along that route.
You seem to imply that the Palestinians would seek more confrontation after a peace deal? And who would back them among the four with material support?

.

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I agree, more mysteries await. For example, if a rapture were to happen, the Jews would basically be standing alone. The 'quartet' may change its plans for bringing peace to the region that is beyond our current expectations.

cbk said:

I still see that the beasts of Daniel, joined together to confirm a covenant of peace in the middle east, would add up to the first beast of Revelation.

Daniel Beast 1 -- The U.S. (and Britian?) that was a lion (ruled by a King) and was made to stand like a man (democracy)

Daniel Beast 2 -- Communist Russia/Bear

Daniel Beast 3 -- The U.N. (leopard)

Daniel Beast 4 -- The new E.U. (rebuilt Rome)

Add them up!!! Seven heads and ten horns.

I see Satan using this "quartet" to make his thrust at the Jews. No treaty has been signed, but via the U.N. a unilateral covenant has been undertaken to bring/force peace, and, to me, the clock is ticking.

Click to expand...

Also, in regards to the U.N. being the leopard with four heads, note the structure of the U.N. The U.N.'s main body is the General Assembly and from this body there are four heads that exist: 1) The Secretariat (one man), 2) The Security Council, 3) The Economic and Social Council, and 4) the International Court of Justice. These four come from the body of the General Assembly.

In regards to the E.U., we must note that very shortly 10 countries are scheduled to join this body on the same day (5-1-2004). They are:

1) Cyprus
2) Czech Republic
3) Estonia
4) Hungary
5) Latvia
6) Lithuania
7) Malta
8) Poland
9) Slovakia
10) Slovenia

If one thinks of a beast that is born, it's horns do not appear until it matures. Possibly, the E.U. could be a body and the ten horns could be the 'kingdoms' or 'leaders' that will appear later. "In one hour" they will receive power??

Do any of these mean anything to anybody?

cbk said:

I agree, more mysteries await. For example, if a rapture were to happen, the Jews would basically be standing alone. The 'quartet' may change its plans for bringing peace to the region that is beyond our current expectations.

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It is actually very simple if the planet is shaken up by a disappearance

of many Christians. The result of that would really be confusion

but the problem is God is not that easily predictable and

that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 meeting Christ in the air has more than one interpretation. Practical scripture readers must never place a huge dependence on just one interpretation of an ambiguous issue like "going up into the air".

Millions have taken the physical disappearance route hence there is no mystery there. Now the huge mystery is what happens if 1 Thess 4:16-17 meeting Christ in the air was not meant to involve dissapearance.

The Jews would not be left alone, all 6.6 billions humans would be on Earth with the forces of Heaven(invisible/visible) and Satan as well. That is the mystery that would take earth totally unawares and in fact, all end time prophecies would be totally confused.

Wills said:

It is actually very simple if the planet is shaken up by a disappearance

of many Christians. The result of that would really be confusion

but the problem is God is not that easily predictable and

that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 meeting Christ in the air has more than one interpretation. Practical scripture readers must never place a huge dependence on just one interpretation of an ambiguous issue like "going up into the air".

Millions have taken the physical disappearance route hence there is no mystery there. Now the huge mystery is what happens if 1 Thess 4:16-17 meeting Christ in the air was not meant to involve dissapearance.

The Jews would not be left alone, all 6.6 billions humans would be on Earth with the forces of Heaven(invisible/visible) and Satan as well. That is the mystery that would take earth totally unawares and in fact, all end time prophecies would be totally confused.

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I see your point, but just because the majority expects a happening doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong. A majority of Jews believed in the coming of a Messiah, does this mean there will be no Messiah?? You could be right, however, that the majority is in error in the case of a rapture.

However, there is more than just I Thess 4:16-17 to suggest a rapture. And, personally, I believe the mystery is not 'what if' but 'when'.

I would have to say that in my opinion there are three different babylons, ancient babylon, which would be baghdad, commercial babylon, which I think America fits, and mystery babylon, which I think is the pagan religions. And I dont have any scriptures to back this up, because like I said they are my opinions, but I dont quite see the world mourning the loss of Iraq the way the Bible states people will mourn for her when she is burnt up in an hour. Look at the way people re-acted when 9-11 happened, they mourned, so to me, if all of new york or the u.s. was destroyed, then I could see the world mourning .

cbk said:

I see your point, but just because the majority expects a happening doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong. A majority of Jews believed in the coming of a Messiah, does this mean there will be no Messiah?? You could be right, however, that the majority is in error in the case of a rapture.

However, there is more than just I Thess 4:16-17 to suggest a rapture. And, personally, I believe the mystery is not 'what if' but 'when'.

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Of course there are two sides to those interpretations

Regarding the Jew example, if Jews were expecting a Messiah genuinely,
Jesus would not have been crucified but would have been crowned a King in Jerusalem. The Jews had a different view of what to expect in a Messiah and the same difference could occur in the interpretation of rapture. That is just the point I was making.

Hence the Jews were expecting a material kingdom with riches etc-- THEY HAD AN INTERPRETATION that differed from reality regarding what Christ came to do and his form of appearance.

That aside, I would like your views regarding end time prophecy which Christians are on earth before and after the Messiah's coming, together with all Jews, and Muslims etc and we head further into Revelations judgement etc.

This is the real challenge for very few have the wisdom required to attempt to see how that would play out. Christians are expected to use the Word of God to shield themselves from Satan during the tribulation, as Peter and the likes of Paul etc did very well in ancient times when challenged by the non believing pagan Romans, Greeks and even some of their fellow Jews.

Kindly give your views on how things would play out and progress in the end time situation I asked with all humans on earth with Christ and Satan etc. It is not out of the question at all for some scriptures also support that view. I am not challenging your belief though.

Wills said:

Of course there are two sides to those interpretations

Kindly give your views on how things would play out and progress in the end time situation I asked with all humans on earth with Christ and Satan etc. It is not out of the question at all for some scriptures also support that view. I am not challenging your belief though.

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1)I believe the seven seals have already been opened. Slowly since the last apostle perished and took his place upon one of the twelve thrones.

2) The seven trumpets are indicators to us that the "season" is near for the wrath of God and His final judgement. Period of trumpets, uncertain.

3) Revelation 12 has already been fulfilled. The dragon (Satan) is pursueing us.

4) The beast from the sea is the combined forces of the 4 beasts of Daniel, which, when added together, has seven heads and 10 horns.

5) The quartet that was born under Resolution 1405 (4/4/2002 -- the day after the passover ended on 4/3/2002) has made a unilateral covenant to the world to bring peace to the middle east and will attempt to do so whether or not Israelis agree.

6) The beast out of the earth has yet to take its place, but will do so via the "quartet".

7) Chapter 14, verses 1-5, no idea, but very significant.

8) Chapter 14:14-16 --- a rapture before the wrath of God. How many will go? NO IDEA.

9) Most likely, North Korea will strike Japan and South Korea. China will worry about this situation and stay out of Middle East problems. America will suffer the most from losses of 5%-15% of its population due to rapture and will become isolationists. (Ha. Ha. 100% of farmers will be gone and 0% of lawyers and judges!) New leadership will emerge within the same existing structures (IE, U.N. and U.S.) (the E.U. will be a major player and Russia will be stronger compared to the U.S. and Russia will become closer friends with Muslim countries) and will attempt to impose their WILL upon Jerusalem. Muslim countries will become major players on the world scene and the covenant of peace to the middle east will be "modified" and "changed" from its original promise and become anti-Jewish and pro-Muslim.

10) God's Wrath will be powered out upon the world and will effect EVERYONE.

11) The church will slowly, slowly grow under difficulties from man and the effects of God's wrath upon the earth.

12) God will bring judgement upon the seat of the U.N. (New York) for it is the harlot (city) on the beast (quartet via the U.N.). Could be a nuclear blast (Rev 18:6 = possible nuclear detonation due to the Manhattan project??)

13) The rest is pretty self explanatory.

But, this is just the opinion of a strange mind.

13)

cbk said:

1)I believe the seven seals have already been opened. Slowly since the last apostle perished and took his place upon one of the twelve thrones.

2) The seven trumpets are indicators to us that the "season" is near for the wrath of God and His final judgement. Period of trumpets, uncertain.

3) Revelation 12 has already been fulfilled. The dragon (Satan) is pursueing us.

4) The beast from the sea is the combined forces of the 4 beasts of Daniel, which, when added together, has seven heads and 10 horns.

5) The quartet that was born under Resolution 1405 (4/4/2002 -- the day after the passover ended on 4/3/2002) has made a unilateral covenant to the world to bring peace to the middle east and will attempt to do so whether or not Israelis agree.

6) The beast out of the earth has yet to take its place, but will do so via the "quartet".

7) Chapter 14, verses 1-5, no idea, but very significant.

8) Chapter 14:14-16 --- a rapture before the wrath of God. How many will go? NO IDEA.

9) Most likely, North Korea will strike Japan and South Korea. China will worry about this situation and stay out of Middle East problems. America will suffer the most from losses of 5%-15% of its population due to rapture and will become isolationists. (Ha. Ha. 100% of farmers will be gone and 0% of lawyers and judges!) New leadership will emerge within the same existing structures (IE, U.N. and U.S.) (the E.U. will be a major player and Russia will be stronger compared to the U.S. and Russia will become closer friends with Muslim countries) and will attempt to impose their WILL upon Jerusalem. Muslim countries will become major players on the world scene and the covenant of peace to the middle east will be "modified" and "changed" from its original promise and become anti-Jewish and pro-Muslim.

10) God's Wrath will be powered out upon the world and will effect EVERYONE.

11) The church will slowly, slowly grow under difficulties from man and the effects of God's wrath upon the earth.

12) God will bring judgement upon the seat of the U.N. (New York) for it is the harlot (city) on the beast (quartet via the U.N.). Could be a nuclear blast (Rev 18:6 = possible nuclear detonation due to the Manhattan project??)

13) The rest is pretty self explanatory.

But, this is just the opinion of a strange mind.

13)

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You did not read my post

Of course there are two sides to those interpretations .

That is Revelation 14 does not necessarily imply humans leaving the Earth.

Kindly give your views on how things would play out and progress in the end time situation I asked with all humans on earth with Christ and Satan etc. It is not out of the question at all for some scriptures also support that view. I am not challenging your belief though.

I MEAN WITHOUT A RAPTURE. Note that I am not challenging your belief on rapture, one needs to look at the other possibility, that God pours out his wrath without anyone leaving earth.
God knows how he would do it so as not to harm his elect , plus
physical death does not rob you of the second resurrection because in REVELATION 14:12-13
God ACTUALLY SAYS BLESSED ARE THOSE who die in the Lord from henceforth showing that some elect are stiil on earth but put that aside for now. Just give me the full end times WITH NO lift off rapture-- I mean the rapture is not the basis of the entire Bible- is it?
God can shield his elect on Earth during his wrath but God also says some may die in the Lord even after the time of the assumed rapture as seen in Revelation 14:12-13

Again, provide your VIEWS 1-13 WITHOUT THE physical lift off into space part, NO physical lift off rapture and God pours out his wrath while we are all on Earth.

I would say at this point the US has a very high chance of being Mystery Babylon. The scripture very cleary states that Babylon will be used by God for a time and then changes track. I would say this switch is happening right now. Common military belief is that if you are defending against something you have to spend 9x as much as the attacker. The US now has many enemies and will probably continue on its current status of perpetual warfare. What really gets me are:

Jeremiah 51:20 "You are my war club, my weapon for battle- with you I shatter nations, with you I destroy kingdoms"

Jeremiah 51:44 "...The nations will no longer stream to him..."

So yeah, I'd have to say that I do believe the US is Babylon. Kind of hard to imagine it being the renewed Roman Empire since there is really no other great evil to slay.

Wills said:

You did not read my post

Kindly give your views on how things would play out and progress in the end time situation I asked with all humans on earth with Christ and Satan etc.

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Sorry, I didn't understand this sentence and I went off track. I'll follow shortly with the other scenerio.

OK, the following would be my scenerio without a physical rapture. Not much different than before.

1)I believe the seven seals have already been opened. Slowly since the last apostle perished and took his place upon one of the twelve thrones.

2) The seven trumpets are indicators to us that the "season" is near for the wrath of God and His final judgement. Period of trumpets, uncertain.

3) Revelation 12 has already been fulfilled. The dragon (Satan) is pursueing us.

4) The beast from the sea is the combined forces of the 4 beasts of Daniel, which, when added together, has seven heads and 10 horns.

5) The quartet that was born under Resolution 1405 (4/4/2002 -- the day after the passover ended on 4/3/2002) has made a unilateral covenant to the world to bring peace to the middle east and will attempt to do so whether or not Israelis agree.

6) The beast out of the earth has yet to take its place, but will do so via the "quartet".

7) Chapter 14, verses 1-5, no idea, but very significant.

8) Chapter 14:14-16 --- a seal is given to Christians who, in the eyes of God, are living by faith and NOT by law. This takes place before the wrath of God. How many will be protected? NO IDEA.

9) As the wrath of God is poured out, many “quasi-Christians” will suffer and instead of repenting will harden their hearts and even curse God. Some will learn to live by faith, but it will be difficult.

10) Most likely, North Korea will one day strike Japan and South Korea. China will worry about this situation and stay out of Middle East problems. America will suffer on the world stage due to its most recent exploits and elections will be held that will bring a government that is more anti-Jew and more pro-Palestinian

New leadership will emerge within the same existing structures (IE, U.N. and U.S.) (the E.U. will be a major player and Russia will be stronger compared to the U.S. – which has a government that is passifist in nature -- and Russia will become closer friends with Muslim countries) and will attempt to impose their WILL upon Jerusalem. Muslim countries will become major players on the world scene (due to the passifist nature of America) and the covenant of peace to the middle east will be "modified" and "changed" from its original promise and become anti-Jewish and pro-Muslim.

Basically, the intentions of the “quartet” will change because the leadership of America will change.

10) God's Wrath will be continually powered out upon the world and will effect EVERYONE; physically, spiritually, emotionally.

11) True Christians will become stronger and “quasi-Christians” will become weaker.

12) God will bring judgement upon the seat of the U.N. (New York) for it is the harlot (city) on the beast (quartet via the U.N.). “Come out of her my people.” Could be a nuclear blast (Rev 18:6 = possible nuclear detonation due to the Manhattan project??)

13) The rest is pretty self explanatory.

But, this is just the opinion of a strange mind.

Pretty much the same as before. But, the U.S. will change due to a change of heart in the voter’s box.

If there is no rapture, then obviously all people will have to suffer the wrath of God during the tribulation. My question is this: why would God say that He will allow the beast to make war with the saints AND overcome them if we are supposedly sealed? Wouldnt that contradict the verse Blessed are those who die in the Lord?Why will God seal some but let saints die? Which is it? To me the first resurrection is for the believers who die after the rapture, Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection, (chapter 20 vs.4-6)cbk, if the seals have already been opened, then when did the fourth seal take place? When did Death and Hades follow the creature and kill over a fourth of the earth? Anyways, I still believe that commercial babylon is probably the u.s.

jayswife29 said:

cbk, if the seals have already been opened, then when did the fourth seal take place? When did Death and Hades follow the creature and kill over a fourth of the earth? Anyways, I still believe that commercial babylon is probably the u.s.

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It doesn't say that the fourth beast KILLED 1/4 of the earth. It just says that it had POWER OVER 1/4 of the earth to kill with sword, famine, and plague, and beasts.

On a limb, circa. 1352 AD.

Or, others may believe circa 70AD or even circa 136AD.

So you dont think the seals have anything to do with the tribulation?

jayswife29 said:

So you dont think the seals have anything to do with the tribulation?

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Seals -- trumpets -- 3.5 years of Beast with FREE reign -- 3.5 years of Beast and world enduring the 7 vials of God's wrath.

Note that the beast is given FREE REIGN after the seven seals and seven trumpets. Rev 13:5 "Given a mouth .... to exercise his authority for forty-two months."

If the vials take place DURING this time, then the beast would not have authority to exercise ITS power. Therefore, the vials are to take place AFTER the first 42 months which begin after the seven seals and trumpets.

No time scale is given in Revelation for the period between the first seal and last vial. I am under the assumption that this period is not seven years, but this is an assumption. If the Beasts first 42 months take place while trumpets and vials are brought upon the earth, then the Beast does not have AUTHORITY to exercise its power, does it??

jayswife29 said:

So you dont think the seals have anything to do with the tribulation?

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Not the seven year tribulation.