Two Questions

[visionary]

Come to New Mexico and our humble li'l rez for a ceremony and you won't have to use the car. Pretty soon N.M. will have the "mota" legalized and then all these kids with their e-cigarettes and their 'frajos encantados' will be dissolving their oxycontin in vegetable glycerin and then that will be legal too. This will occur, of course, after the politicians decide who gets what and when and how much the state Att'y Gen'l. gets on first cut. He may end up with less than he's getting now(ahem, ahem). RHIP, as it is said. From El Paso up the Rio Grande is known as the 'Pipeline', right to Alamosa, then to K.C.Mo. via 'Volamos por la Noche' airlines to the 'roundhouse' where the aroma of garlic, olive oil and polmidora sauce wafts through the air.

Ah, I'm all beklempt just thinking about my old home town, where the Lazios, Berbiglias, Binaggios, Civellas, Capras and B'nai B'rith proved they could send Truman to Washington.

Times were better then. Affare sono affare.

With peyote in the pipe offering peace, I suppose. Did they ever get that religion of peyote legal?

 

[aniello]

Yes, and yes.

Congress finally gave us First Amendment rights in 1978. It was so WHITE of them.

United States

Where there is exclusive federal jurisdiction or state law is not "racially" limited, peyote use by Native American Church members is legal and "racially" neutral in the United States.[30] This exemption from federal criminalization is as old as creation of federal law creating peyote related offenses.
This law has been codified as a statute in the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978, and made part of the common law in Peyote Way Church of God v. Thornburgh, (5th Cir. 1991);[31] it is also in administrative law at the 21 C.F.R. 1307.31. The C.F.R. part dealing with "SPECIAL EXEMPT PERSONS" states:

Section 1307.31 Native American Church. The listing of peyote as a controlled substance in Schedule I does not apply to the nondrug use of peyote in bona fide religious ceremonies of the Native American Church, and members of the Native American Church so using peyote are exempt from registration. Any person who manufactures peyote for or distributes peyote to the Native American Church, however, is required to obtain registration annually and to comply with all other requirements of law.
​

U.S. v. Boyll, 774 F.Supp. 1333 (D.N.M. 1991)[32] addresses this racial issue specifically and concludes:

For the reasons set out in this Memorandum Opinion and
Order, the Court holds that, pursuant to 21 C.F.R. § 1307.31 (1990), the classification of peyote as a Schedule I controlled substance, see 21 U.S.C. § 812(c), Schedule I(c)(12), does not apply to the importation, possession or use of peyote for 'bona fide' ceremonial use by members of the Native American Church,
regardless of race.​

United States federal law (and many state laws) protects the harvest, possession, consumption and cultivation of peyote as part of "bonafide religious ceremonies" (the federal statute is the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, codified at 42 U.S.C. § 1996a, "Traditional Indian religious use of the peyote sacrament," exempting only use by Native American persons, while some state laws exempt any general "bona fide religious activity"). American jurisdictions enacted these specific statutory exemptions in reaction to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990), which held that laws prohibiting the use of peyote that do not specifically exempt religious use nevertheless do not violate the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. Peyote is listed by the United States DEA as a Schedule I controlled substance.


Not that any of us ever actually waited on the CFRs. We tolerate the Government but we don't believe it is OK. Oyate Lakota hearts were buried at Wounded Knee. My dad's mother, my paternal grandmother, is buried at the end of thaat trench mass grave at St. John's church at Wounded Knee.


We will survive!!!! Custer died for their sins.

 

[pat34lee]

There are some aspects of the 'Sacred Namers' to which I do not subscribe. But this seems like a no-brainer. Y'shua gave us יהוה to use, to call upon. I have every confidence that if I pronounce יהוה in any way different than it was first intended, then He Who confused the languages in the first place, is able to understand. That's my take on all of this.

Blessings,
Phillip

If you mean that you must either get the name exactly right or that the name is a magic formula to get him to do what you want, I don't believe those either. I even believe there are times to use titles and such (he earned them), but not to the exclusion of his self-given name.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Pat,

I tried to keep my post pretty well centered on His name, the origins of the controversy over the name and what Messiah Y'shua actually did in regard to that controversy. I also addressed the pronunciation issue too. So I don't know where you might have gotten the impression that I was talking about titles or magic formulas or insisting on a particular pronunciation. From your response, I get the feeling like you read something other than what I wrote.

But aside from all that, what did you get from my post? Was it on point? On topic? Did it answer your questions about my beliefs?

Blessings,
Phillip

If you mean that you must either get the name exactly right or that the name is a magic formula to get him to do what you want, I don't believe those either. I even believe there are times to use titles and such (he earned them), but not to the exclusion of his self-given name.

 

[pat34lee]

Hi Pat,

I tried to keep my post pretty well centered on His name, the origins of the controversy over the name and what Messiah Y'shua actually did in regard to that controversy. I also addressed the pronunciation issue too. So I don't know where you might have gotten the impression that I was talking about titles or magic formulas or insisting on a particular pronunciation. From your response, I get the feeling like you read something other than what I wrote.

But aside from all that, what did you get from my post? Was it on point? On topic? Did it answer your questions about my beliefs?

Blessings,
Phillip

It answered me pretty well. I think that you are pretty close to how I believe, except you are more moderate to try avoiding stepping on toes. I wear clodhoppers.

From your earlier post:
"There are some aspects of the 'Sacred Namers' to which I do not subscribe."​

The two beliefs I mentioned are a couple of the major peeves I've heard when people call them SN's. As I said, I don't believe either one.

 

[Yahudim]

Cool.

It answered me pretty well. I think that you are pretty close to how I believe, except you are more moderate to try avoiding stepping on toes. I wear clodhoppers.

From your earlier post:
"There are some aspects of the 'Sacred Namers' to which I do not subscribe."​

The two beliefs I mentioned are a couple of the major peeves I've heard when people call them SN's. As I said, I don't believe either one.

 

[Lulav]

The quote is from another thread, but rather than straying from the OP, I'll start another one. This is not for debate. I will not challenge any answers. I would just like to see some, and know that those who agree with or are not sure about Lulav's statement here have to think about the questions.



I want to ask you, and the others on here who believe this two questions. I doubt it will change anything, but it's worth a try.

1. What makes you think that not saying his name is holding it in esteem? (Besides the Jews do it or it's tradition.)

2. Can you think of anything else that is good that you self-censor, or only bad things, such as curse words?

#1 on a forum we are not 'saying' it or not not saying it.
#2 Self-censor? I'm not censoring anything, you apparently don't understand the reason we do it.

 

[pat34lee]

#1 on a forum we are not 'saying' it or not not saying it.
#2 Self-censor? I'm not censoring anything, you apparently don't understand the reason we do it.

Saying or writing. Usually, there is not much difference if you are communicating with people in a public place.

I know the stated purpose, which is cultural and pagan at that. It doesn't make biblical sense (barring Jer. 44 prophecy in Phillip's earlier post, which I think has passed already), so I asked the questions. If the wording is not clear on #2, replace with:

2. Are there any other words that you would basically never say around anyone; friend or stranger? If so, what type of words are they?

 

[Yahudim]

Hi you guys,

May I cut in? I just wanted to point out that my post here, (And btw, I'm a little disappointed that NO ONE bothered to respond to my post in any detail, considering the depth to which I dug. Can't blame scripture, so I guess I'm just a crappy writer, huh? ) was an attempt at explaining that the 'tradition' of not saying (or writing or whatever) the name , יהוה was a message from the Father, a prophecy, not originally a tradition of man. But it was taken to heart by the Jewish community and exercised as such for over 2,500 years, even as it is today.

The portion illustrating where Messiah gave the name יהוה, back to the Jews, specifically to His talmidim, was to illustrate a point of contention between the Messianics and the traditional Jews that continues to this day.

What we are seeing now is the modern talmidim are eschewing this great gift, not as a concession to the modern Jews, but as a continuation of Christian tradition. Take the the scriptures where the name is substituted with LORD (don't get me started). But in this one case, I really believe we need to rethink this type of self-censorship. In case you haven't noticed, I don't really care who I offend as long as it isn't Him.

Contrasting the above with other forms of self-censorship is an interesting idea. It's clear that the intent is to get us to reexamine our motives. Judging from what I have read to date, this isn't such a bad idea.

So Lulav, my dearest of sisters, I would humbly submit to you and all that still engage in this practice, that Pat know exactly why we do it. He is just trying to get us to question why.

Personally, I think he is onto something that we all should seriously consider. We need to put all personal feelings aside and go to scripture for an answer. Are we really doing what Messiah wants by calling on 'The Pronoun' or 'The Idiom' or 'The Title' or 'The Transliteralism?

Like I said, I don't really care who I offend as long as it isn't Him. But given the chance, I would offend no one. And btw, I'm a little miffed no one really 'got' my post. Guess I'll go eat worm until I get a tummy ache and die! Then you'll be sorry.

Offered in His Love,
Phillip

#1 on a forum we are not 'saying' it or not not saying it.
#2 Self-censor? I'm not censoring anything, you apparently don't understand the reason we do it.

Saying or writing. Usually, there is not much difference if you are communicating with people in a public place.

I know the stated purpose, which is cultural and pagan at that. It doesn't make biblical sense (barring Jer. 44 prophecy in Phillip's earlier post, which I think has passed already), so I asked the questions. If the wording is not clear on #2, replace with:

2. Are there any other words that you would basically never say around anyone; friend or stranger? If so, what type of words are they?

 

[Lulav]

Phil, i understand where you are coming from, but I was rather put in the spotlight seeing a quote from another thread made into a new OP.

Originally Posted by Lulav

Hi Daq, I don't see it as an exercise, merely a show of respect towards my maker. If that offends anyone then they need to re-examine why. I won't apologize for holding those terms in higher esteem than other names.
And since this is a MJ forum I see no need to have to. ​

I have been doing this for some time and I probably will. I know this offends Christians and they get all up in arms over it, some even get twisted in a knot over it, but I see it as a chance for testimony. But they just call him god. And those who are heathen use it as a curse word. I want to show a higher esteem for that title. There many be many little 'gods' but only one G-d. And when the Name is in the text and it's honored in English all capitalized (which I think shows honor as well) I feel I just emphasize it by taking out the Vowel which to me refers it back to the Hebrew.

Some people refer to Him as 'The Almighty', is there anything wrong with that?

Maybe I should start using 'The Holy One , Blessed be He'? It will take a bit longer to type out, but perhaps more apropos?

Ha Kadosh, Baruckh Hu

 

[MadMaxData]

Maybe I should start using 'The Holy One , Blessed be He'? It will take a bit longer to type out, but perhaps more apropos?

Not a bad idea. I think I will consider this too.

 

[Yahudim]

I know and it's a shame when people do that. To a certain extent, I agree with where you are coming from. He is worthy of all honorifics.

All I was saying is His actual name has been given back to us to use in the circumstances where we might actually call on Him. This is big and not something that should be discounted for any reason. ...and yes, this is a salvation issue. Those who call upon His Name will be saved! Baruch HaShem! (<- see?)

Phil, i understand where you are coming from, but I was rather put in the spotlight seeing a quote from another thread made into a new OP.

I have been doing this for some time and I probably will. I know this offends Christians and they get all up in arms over it, some even get twisted in a knot over it, but I see it as a chance for testimony. But they just call him god. And those who are heathen use it as a curse word. I want to show a higher esteem for that title. There many be many little 'gods' but only one G-d. And when the Name is in the text and it's honored in English all capitalized (which I think shows honor as well) I feel I just emphasize it by taking out the Vowel which to me refers it back to the Hebrew.

Some people refer to Him as 'The Almighty', is there anything wrong with that?

Maybe I should start using 'The Holy One , Blessed be He'? It will take a bit longer to type out, but perhaps more apropos?

Ha Kadosh, Baruckh Hu

 

[Lulav]

Does anyone know where in the NT you can find what Yeshua or the disciples called him?

I see Kurios and Theos which really are generic names.

And did Yeshua really say to HaSatan You shall worship the Lord your God?

 

[pat34lee]

Does anyone know where in the NT you can find what Yeshua or the disciples called him?

I see Kurios and Theos which really are generic names.

And did Yeshua really say to HaSatan You shall worship the Lord your God?

Two things tell me he called him by his name at least sometimes. First, he quoted the Tanakh, and would have done so name and all. Second, he told the disciples that he gave them the name, and if anyone knows the name, he does.

He told him "It is written". Scripture is the only weapon and defense against him. It is also his most effective weapon against us when we don't know it.

 

[Lulav]

Yet many say the Septuagint was used and that would revert to NT writing in Greek. You really can't translate the Name to Greek and keep it's meaning.

I think the only place where we see the true name is in Revelation. Yet it is explained not a name.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is , and which was , and which is to come , the Almighty

It harkens back to Exodus 3 where the English translates it as I AM that I AM.

Hayah asher Hayah

&#1488;&#1462;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492; &#1488;&#1458;&#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1512; &#1488;&#1462;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492;

Now another Jewish bible translates it differently

God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

Which is rather limiting to me.

 

[Lulav]

Two things tell me he called him by his name at least sometimes. First, he quoted the Tanakh, and would have done so name and all. Second, he told the disciples that he gave them the name, and if anyone knows the name, he does.

He told him "It is written". Scripture is the only weapon and defense against him. It is also his most effective weapon against us when we don't know it.

The question Pat was:

Does anyone know where in the NT you can find what Yeshua or the disciples called him?

Please give reference to what you stated above.

 

[pat34lee]

Yet many say the Septuagint was used and that would revert to NT writing in Greek. You really can't translate the Name to Greek and keep it's meaning.

I think the only place where we see the true name is in Revelation. Yet it is explained not a name.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is , and which was , and which is to come , the Almighty

It harkens back to Exodus 3 where the English translates it as I AM that I AM.

Hayah asher Hayah

&#1488;&#1462;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492; &#1488;&#1458;&#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1512; &#1488;&#1462;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492;

Now another Jewish bible translates it differently



Which is rather limiting to me.

They thought of that too. Before the rabbis standardized the scrolls (~800-1000 AD), the name was written in paleo-Hebrew, whether the scripture was in Hebrew or Greek.

More examples on this page:
One name YHWH Father/Son/Spirit | YHWH Messiah

 

[Gxg (G²)]

They thought of that too. Before the rabbis standardized the scrolls (~800-1000 AD), the name was written in paleo-Hebrew, whether the scripture was in Hebrew or Greek.

More examples on this page:
One name YHWH Father/Son/Spirit | YHWH Messiah

Interesting...

 

[mishkan]

They thought of that too. Before the rabbis standardized the scrolls (~800-1000 AD), the name was written in paleo-Hebrew, whether the scripture was in Hebrew or Greek.

Your statement, though, has nothing to do with verbalization. They could have written the name in Martian, for all we know or care. That doesn't indicate what pronunciation was spoken when they came to that word. It is still the common practice to write the Tetragrammaton in a brand-new Torah scroll. And it is still the common practice to pronounce a euphemism of some sort when reading out loud a passage containing the Name.

Unless you can go back in time to the first century with a recording device, and bring it back for our edification... no one can know for sure whether the Tetragrammaton was ever pronounced the way it looks on parchment.

 

[visionary]

At least we have consistency in the writing of it as YHWH even if we vary in how it could possible sound like.