Two Questions

[pat34lee]

Your statement, though, has nothing to do with verbalization. They could have written the name in Martian, for all we know or care. That doesn't indicate what pronunciation was spoken when they came to that word. It is still the common practice to write the Tetragrammaton in a brand-new Torah scroll. And it is still the common practice to pronounce a euphemism of some sort when reading out loud a passage containing the Name.

Unless you can go back in time to the first century with a recording device, and bring it back for our edification... no one can know for sure whether the Tetragrammaton was ever pronounced the way it looks on parchment.

How is 'pecan' pronounced? I mean the one and only correct way. If there is not one correct pronunciation, then what makes you think there is only one for YHWH?

 

[daq]

They thought of that too. Before the rabbis standardized the scrolls (~800-1000 AD), the name was written in paleo-Hebrew, whether the scripture was in Hebrew or Greek.

More examples on this page:
One name YHWH Father/Son/Spirit | YHWH Messiah

From your link:

Father’s name given to the Son…
John 17:11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”
One name YHWH Father/Son/Spirit | YHWH Messiah

The rendering quoted above removes the statement from its overall context which concerns Messiah losing none of those whom the Father had given to him except for the son of perdition:

John 17:3-12 KJV
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Hebrews 2:10-13 KJV
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

 

[mishkan]

How is 'pecan' pronounced? I mean the one and only correct way. If there is not one correct pronunciation, then what makes you think there is only one for YHWH?

You are waffling now. That analogy is completely nonequivalent.

We are not talking about a regional shift in a vowel sound. We are discussing conscious and deliberate substitutions of one word for another--circumlocution. The rabbis tell us this has been the practice since pretty much forever. Do you have ANY evidence to the contrary? Does one person anywhere in ancient times ever explicitly write, "We pronounce the original, rather than the false practice of substitution"?

Not one? I think I would re-evaluate that view.

 

[pat34lee]

The question Pat was:

Please give reference to what you stated above.

John 17, all, particularly v. 26

And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.​

Matthew 4:4,7

4 But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.​

 

[pat34lee]

You are waffling now. That analogy is completely nonequivalent.

We are not talking about a regional shift in a vowel sound. We are discussing conscious and deliberate substitutions of one word for another--circumlocution. The rabbis tell us this has been the practice since pretty much forever. Do you have ANY evidence to the contrary? Does one person anywhere in ancient times ever explicitly write, "We pronounce the original, rather than the false practice of substitution"?

Not one? I think I would re-evaluate that view.

If you think that, then we might as well throw out Hebrew altogether. Chances are about 100% that the way it is spoken today is nothing like the original language. Even English is nothing like it was just three or four hundred years ago.

We make do the best we can.

 

[mishkan]

If you think that, then we might as well throw out Hebrew altogether. Chances are about 100% that the way it is spoken today is nothing like the original language. Even English is nothing like it was just three or four hundred years ago.

We make do the best we can.

I really get the impression that you don't understand the issues involved in this topic.

I am not suggesting that we should be fearful of mispronouncing the Tetragrammaton because of vowel drift, or some such normal feature of language over time.

I am telling you that a conscious decision was made more than 2,000 years ago by the leaders of Israel--a decision to avoid insulting the God of Israel by treating his Name like any other gutter slang. The technique employed was to make use of circumlocutions, deliberate and intentional replacement of the written Tetragrammaton with synonymous words like, "Hashem", "Adonai", "Eloheinu", or other variations.

I am attempting to answer your questions:

1. What makes you think that not saying his name is holding it in esteem? (Besides the Jews do it or it's tradition.)

2. Can you think of anything else that is good that you self-censor, or only bad things, such as curse words?

As I already stated, not pronouncing the Name is a technique called "sanctification". Just like you keep the "good silver" in a special drawer, and don't pull it out every night. You save it for guests, or special occasions. The restriction is what makes it special. The same is true of using the Tetragrammaton.

If you don't like following that convention, then don't. But please don't act all surprised when you offend others at a deep level. Do what you want, but be aware that you are the bull in the china shop.

 

[pat34lee]

I really get the impression that you don't understand the issues involved in this topic.

I am not suggesting that we should be fearful of mispronouncing the Tetragrammaton because of vowel drift, or some such normal feature of language over time.

I am telling you that a conscious decision was made more than 2,000 years ago by the leaders of Israel--a decision to avoid insulting the God of Israel by treating his Name like any other gutter slang. The technique employed was to make use of circumlocutions, deliberate and intentional replacement of the written Tetragrammaton with synonymous words like, "Hashem", "Adonai", "Eloheinu", or other variations.

I am attempting to answer your questions:

As I already stated, not pronouncing the Name is a technique called "sanctification". Just like you keep the "good silver" in a special drawer, and don't pull it out every night. You save it for guests, or special occasions. The restriction is what makes it special. The same is true of using the Tetragrammaton.

If you don't like following that convention, then don't. But please don't act all surprised when you offend others at a deep level. Do what you want, but be aware that you are the bull in the china shop.

You have talked about several things, but you haven't directly answered either question I asked.

For #2, please use the edited version.

2. Are there any other words that you would basically never say around anyone; friend or stranger? If so, what type of words are they?

You may think the practice is respectful today, but that was not the purpose of it. It had nothing to do with protecting the name from the feared unbelievers and unwashed masses. It was a grab for power that the rabbis learned from Babylon. Control access to God. Make the people dependent on you for that access.

Some traditions are long overdue for trampling. moo

 

[Lulav]

Oh, come on, if you are going on that line start with the RCC who kept the whole Bible from the people for over 1,000 years and the people they had killed who tried to bring it to the people in their own language!

What you don't understand is that the Rabbi's were doing their best. You must remember what happened 2,000 years ago, Israel was scattered amongst the Heathens. The name was protected.

Think of today even, people use Jesus Christ as a swear word as well as G0d thinking they are cursing them. just think what would happen if this was the true name?

 

[pat34lee]

Oh, come on, if you are going on that line start with the RCC who kept the whole Bible from the people for over 1,000 years and the people they had killed who tried to bring it to the people in their own language!

What you don't understand is that the Rabbi's were doing their best. You must remember what happened 2,000 years ago, Israel was scattered amongst the Heathens. The name was protected.

Think of today even, people use Jesus Christ as a swear word as well as G0d thinking they are cursing them. just think what would happen if this was the true name?

With the example of the RCC, can you deny the practice? They learned from Babylon, the same as the rabbis.

Do you think anyone here has the power to cause damage to his name? Do you think he is powerless or not even real? Idols need protection, Yahuah can protect his own name. He proved that by having the smallest, least powerful nation carry that name. The one thing he will not do is force his name and salvation on us.

 

[Jonathan Lankford]

Does anyone know where in the NT you can find what Yeshua or the disciples called him?

I see Kurios and Theos which really are generic names.

And did Yeshua really say to HaSatan You shall worship the Lord your God?

The Lord God in Greek is a direct translation from Hebrew that always includes YHWH in the Old Testament, such as YHWH Elohim or Adonay YHWH. There are several places where Jesus, Lord, and God should be YHWH.

 

[catlynne333]

This is about far more than whether or not someone here gets offended or feels that I am judging them. Far from what some may think on here, I do neither lightly, but I do it knowingly. At some point, we must examine every doctrine we hold, because many of them offend Yahuah (Yahweh). I think people have avoided answering these two questions because they know there is no answer.

"Sorry bub, buddy, pal, whoever. I can't say or write your name even though it is the most written word in the Tanakh. A memorial forever that lasted a thousand years only to be purposely mangled and forgotten."

Personnally it becomes a stumbling block to me to see it written out .This is because I read it and then am pronouncing it and that is against my beliefs.

 

[Lulav]

With the example of the RCC, can you deny the practice? They learned from Babylon, the same as the rabbis.

Do you think anyone here has the power to cause damage to his name? Do you think he is powerless or not even real? Idols need protection, Yahuah can protect his own name. He proved that by having the smallest, least powerful nation carry that name. The one thing he will not do is force his name and salvation on us.

What are you going on about Babylon? You think that Jews learned the name of G-d there?

And if you don't think we have any power in our words you are mighty mistaken.

Why do you think the 3rd commandment reads as it does if we have no power?


It's not about Him protecting his name, it's about those who are His treating it in the correct manner. This is why the Rabbi's did as they did.

 

[Lulav]

The Lord God in Greek is a direct translation from Hebrew that always includes YHWH in the Ols Testament, such as YHWH Elohim. For more, go to my blog. One name YHWH Father/Son/Spirit | YHWH Messiah . . . . Many places where Jesus, Lord, and God should be YHWH.

Well aware, thanks!

 

[pat34lee]

Personally it becomes a stumbling block to me to see it written out .This is because I read it and then am pronouncing it and that is against my beliefs.

That is why it is important to decide whether the practice of not speaking or writing the name is scriptural or not. (The answer is NO.) If it were, then Yahuah would have started by killing Moses, who likely spoke the name more than anyone else in history.

Like those who claim the law changed and done away with, you cannot have it both ways. If it was legitimate, even commanded, for Moses and Israel to say the name, then it is the same with you and I.

 

[pat34lee]

What are you going on about Babylon? You think that Jews learned the name of G-d there?

And if you don't think we have any power in our words you are mighty mistaken.

Why do you think the 3rd commandment reads as it does if we have no power?

It's not about Him protecting his name, it's about those who are His treating it in the correct manner. This is why the Rabbi's did as they did.

Yahuah taught Israel his name. He spoke it to them out loud. (Exodus 20:1-2) Babylon taught them perversion, paganism, and the ineffable name concept.

So we have power. Who is stronger, people (including rabbis) or Yah?

Try a practical argument. What purpose does the practice serve in reality? The ban doesn't stop me because I know it is wrong. It doesn't stop pagans or anyone against him from blaspheming the name because they don't care. The only person it hinders is the person who believes it.

 

[Lulav]

That is why it is important to decide whether the practice of not speaking or writing the name is scriptural or not. (The answer is NO.) If it were, then Yahuah would have started by killing Moses, who likely spoke the name more than anyone else in history.

Like those who claim the law changed and done away with, you cannot have it both ways. If it was legitimate, even commanded, for Moses and Israel to say the name, then it is the same with you and I.

Why are you asking questions if you already have all the answers?

(The answer is NO.)

Yet you are referring to Him with what you believe is the correct name. How do you know for sure? How do you know you aren't really calling him something else?

As far as using Moses to to back up your theory, he was there, so were the children of Israel and they heard the L-RD pronounce it, but this couldn't be transferred to the written word. The Torah was buried for how long? When it was found again there was no one left who could have even had it handed down by word of mouth.

Yahuah taught Israel his name. He spoke it to them out loud. (Exodus 20:1-2) Babylon taught them perversion, paganism, and the ineffable name concept.

So we have power. Who is stronger, people (including rabbis) or Yah?

Try a practical argument. What purpose does the practice serve in reality? The ban doesn't stop me because I know it is wrong. It doesn't stop pagans or anyone against him from blaspheming the name because they don't care. The only person it hinders is the person who believes it.

Some take the commandment to not desecrate His Holy Name seriously.

My arguments are based on the Bible, that's as practical as I get.

The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

Does this not have meaning? G-d is the one who created us, gave us choice and also gave us powers through language.

Again, why ask, you think you know all the answers.

The ban doesn't stop me because I know it is wrong.

All I know is that this is true:

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[pat34lee]

Why are you asking questions if you already have all the answers?

It has nothing to do with pride. It would be easier not to bother trying to explain why you are wrong. Remember the watchman in Isaiah and Ezekiel, or look him up if you don't remember.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We don't have time for another lost generation because of stubbornness and traditions. More than you, I fear for those who are in leadership positions who feel the same, because they should know better. And they will be judged more harshly for teaching false doctrine, by error or by intent.

 

[Jonathan Lankford]

Written is different than pronunciation. I simply do not believe anyone on earth knows how to properly pronounce the Tetragrammaton and neither should they try.

My family has the same opinion. Unfortunately, scripture does not agree with them. Being the husband trying to lead my family in righteousness, it is difficult. They can read scripture verses about the importance of the Yahwah's name, but then hear or read on lesson from a teacher/pastor and think otherwise.

I do agree that it is nearly impossible to know the exact pronunciation, so Revelation 19 has a great truth there. But does that mean we should not use it at all? Don't we know the first and last syllables at least? It is the name that Messiah taught to His disciples (John 17:6) and everyone will know that name when Yahwah returns. I am just not content with waiting that long, and I don't think Messiah was either.

Just a thought. What do you make of Acts 10:43? What name is Acts 10:43 referring to?

 

[Jonathan Lankford]

Thanks for the post. I used to be trinitarian Baptist but changed to oneness Messianic after doing what you have just done - comparing the Old with the New. It took a year, but studied this and decided that Yahwah - however you want to spell - is the name above very name and the one we have to keep in our fore-thoughts.

To all: I have my paper available for download and peer review. I didn't do it for a theological qualification but only for my benefit and maybe others'. My blog name is YHWH Messiah. Email me for the link if any of you want to peer review it. I appreciate it.

I just wanted to weigh in on this topic. This has always had a little hysteria associated with it, but I wanted to look at it from a scriptural and historical perspective. Just a few verses from the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) about calling on the Name: יהוה. Please note that in the Hebrew text, every place David Stern substituted 'Adonai', יהוה is found.

Genesis 4:26
26 To Shet too was born a son, whom he called Enosh. That is when people began to call on the name of Adonai.

1 Chronicles 16:8
8 Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples.

Psalm 99:6
6 Moshe and Aharon among his cohanim
and Sh’mu’el among those who call on his name
called on Adonai, and he answered them.

Psalm 105:1
105 Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples.

Psalm 116:13
13 I will raise the cup of salvation
and call on the name of Adonai.

Psalm 116:17
17 I will offer a sacrifice of thanks to you
and will call on the name of Adonai.

Isaiah 12:4
4 On that day you will say,
“Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples,
declare how exalted is his name.

Joel 3:5
5 (2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of Adonai will be saved.
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as Adonai has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom Adonai has called.

Zephaniah 3:9
9 For then I will change the peoples,
so that they will have pure lips,
to call on the name of Adonai, all of them,
and serve him with one accord.

Continuing in the rabbinic tradition of censoring the name, יהוה. I should mention that the prohibition was originally against speaking the name out loud. The 'fence' of saying and writing 'HaShem' was added later.

It is thought that this prohibition is a fulfillment of prophecy given Yirmeyahu in chapter 44. This is recorded during the time that Yirmeyahu is taken to Egypt by a rebellious remnant that objected to the rule instituted by Babylon in Judea. It is also thought that by the time that the captives were coming back into the land, this tradition was already firmly entrenched had continued until the advent of Messiah Y'shua. You will find many places in the Brith Chadashah were sudden inexplicable controversy occurs, when you look a little closer, there is often found someone using the name.

Please note:

Jeremiah 44:24-30
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
24 In addition, Yirmeyahu said to all the people, but especially the women: “Hear the word of Adonai, all Y’hudah who are in the land of Egypt; 25 this is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: ‘You and your wives stated your intentions with your mouths and performed them with your hands — you said, “We will certainly fulfill our vows that we made to offer incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.”’ Without doubt, you will indeed fulfill every point of your vows. 26 Therefore hear the word of Adonai, all Y’hudah living in the land of Egypt: ‘I swear by my own great name,’ says Adonai, ‘that no man of Y’hudah will speak my name again in the land of Egypt, swearing, “As Adonai, God, lives.” 27 I am watching over them for harm, not for good. All the men of Y’hudah in the land of Egypt will be destroyed by sword and famine, until none of them is left. 28 Those who escape the sword will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Y’hudah few in number; and all the remnant of Y’hudah who went into the land of Egypt to live will know whose word will stand — mine or theirs! 29 Moreover, here is a sign for you,’ says Adonai, ‘that I will punish you in this place, so that you can know that my threats of disaster against you will come true.’ 30 Adonai says, ‘I will hand over Pharaoh Hofra king of Egypt to his enemies, to those seeking his life — just as I handed Tzidkiyahu king of Y’hudah over to N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel, his enemy, who sought his life.’”

It is recorded in Y'shua's famous prayer before He went to Gath-Smane to pray, that He had restored the Name to His talmidim and followers:
John 17
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 After Yeshua had said these things, he looked up toward heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you — 2 just as you gave him authority over all mankind, so that he might give eternal life to all those whom you have given him. 3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.

4 “I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you, 8 because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. They have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me.

9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. 10 Indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified. 11 Now I am no longer in the world. They are in the world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, guard them by the power of your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. 12 When I was with them, I guarded them by the power of your name, which you have given to me; yes, I kept watch over them; and not one of them was destroyed (except the one meant for destruction, so that the Tanakh might be fulfilled). 13 But now, I am coming to you; and I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.

We know this to be true because of the incident that occurred with the Cohen gadol and P'rushim as He entered Yerushalayim on the 10th of Aviv:

Luke 19:32-40
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
32 Those who were sent went off and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, “Why are you untying the colt?” 34 and they said, “Because the Lord needs it.” 35 They brought it to Yeshua; and, throwing their robes on the colt, they put Yeshua on it. 36 As he went along, people carpeted the road with their clothing; 37 and as he came near Yerushalayim, where the road descends from the Mount of Olives, the entire band of talmidim began to sing and praise God at the top of their voices for all the powerful works they had seen:

38 “Blessed is the King who is coming in the name of Adonai!”[a]
“Shalom in heaven!”
and
“Glory in the highest places!”
39 Some of the P’rushim in the crowd said to him, “Rabbi! Reprimand your talmidim!” 40 But he answered them, “I tell you that if they keep quiet, the stones will shout!”


See:
Habakkuk 2:10-12
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
10 By scheming to destroy many peoples,
you have brought shame to your house
and forfeited your life.
11 For the very stones will cry out from the wall,
and a beam in the framework will answer them.
12 “‘Woe to him who builds a city with blood
and founds a town on injustice,

and

Psalm 118:25-26
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
25 Please, Adonai! Save us!
Please, Adonai! Rescue us!
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.
We bless you from the house of Adonai.

Since Y'shua revealed He had given them the name, יהוה, it seem quite plausible that they were shouting it out loud and this is this action to which the P'rushim objected. It also stands to reason that by quoting Habakkuk, Y'shua was issuing a stern accusation and rebuke to the P'rushim.

Then there is the martyrdom of Stephan, who quoted Psalm 110:1 as he rebuked his Jewish brethren:

Psalm 110:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
110 (0) A psalm of David:
(1) Adonai says to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”
...again calling out the name prohibited by the Tz’dukim and P'rushim.

There are some aspects of the 'Sacred Namers' to which I do not subscribe. But this seems like a no-brainer. Y'shua gave us יהוה to use, to call upon. I have every confidence that if I pronounce יהוה in any way different than it was first intended, then He Who confused the languages in the first place, is able to understand. That's my take on all of this.

Blessings,
Phillip

 

[Jonathan Lankford]

Hello.... I'm the owner of the blog site from which this photo is taken. Actually, credit goes to Dr. Robert Kraft, prof. emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania for this photo and all other manuscript photos on my blog site and in my thesis. Dr. Kraft has got a great online repository. My thesis was not for the Uni of Penn and was for personal means only, so it has not been peer reviewed. I would really appreciate a review of it, however. Please don't hesitate to message if you would like to read it. Here is the abstract:

This survey of the Tetragrammaton (four letters of the Creator’s name) reveals textual evidence from nearly original manuscripts and various civilizations that the name of the Creator is YHWH in all three persons and manifestations of his presence. The paper will first review the reasons for the pronunciation “Yahwah,” which is read phonemically ..... Following the study of pronunciation is a review of the name’s historical usage and removal from circulated manuscripts beginning in the second century BCE, which has resulted in modern replacement theology of the name with generic titles as Lord and alternate names as Jesus. The grave theological implications upon the present-day church are examined. More specifically, the study proposes a view of God’s oneness as YHWH and how it affects the doctrine of baptism. Multiple links to the evidence exist within the document that will direct the reader to various sources, which include online libraries, imaged manuscripts, and direct communication with multiple post-graduate professionals and professors.