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Two men are reading the same bible...

Which one is apt to see the services in the written scripture when any portion of one is mentioned?

  • Reading alone.

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salt-n-light

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That's not surprising. Think about who is working against you and how our society has geared us towards isolation. I encourage you to try and break that cycle.

Forgive me...

Society does it so well. They break up the unity by creating division (with fear) then plant a "solution" to the division they were responsible for in the first place (with policies). Anyone that is a threat to that now becomes the "other" (with social pressure) . I see it with race, with gender, and with economic class status.

The church is a game changer in which the fellowship disregards that whole false promise of unity by combating social pressure with individual acknowledgment of repentance and true identity, finding unification through the Word of God, and finding fellowship among varieties of people by being part of the body of Christ.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I was glad to read your final sentence, because it would seem that you have run us together. "Kissing a Priest's ring" for instance.

The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - Liturgical Texts of the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Ok - I stand corrected. In the Orthodox communion service the right hand of the priest is kissed - not the ring.

But the fact remains that deacons and laity shouldn't need to kiss anyone's right hand but their Savior.

I did say that the "higher" the service the more likely a Bible believer would be to find things to disagree with.

It's at least commendable I suppose that the Orthodox liturgies don't seem to be quite as "high" as the RCC.
I wind up with St. Luke creating the first Christian icon called 'Theotokos', commonly called 'mother and child' during Mary's lifetime and with everyones approval.
Correction - not with everyone's approval.
I would suggest reading the text of the 'Anaphora' prayers.
You won't find the text in the bible,
then realize that St. Paul did this too (and you can see that in scripture),
Paul was not taught by men but Christ himself.
He was not at the last supper.
I don't need to read them.

Exactly - it's not in the Bible.

Where in scripture can I find that?

No kidding - who said that Paul was taught by anyone but the Lord?

No kidding? He wasn't at the last supper? You learn something new every day.:)






It is the completed order of Melchizedek, an order of bread and wine from the OT.

The entire service is known as the Divine Liturgy.
OK - I can accept that.

To YOU the communion remembrance service is known as the "Divine Liturgy".
We are endangering our souls by speaking against Christ's commands. I'm just hoping you see that.
No kidding? I do see that.

Also changing His simple command to do this in remembrance of me to something it wasn't then and isn't suppose to me now is dangerous. Don't add things to the scriptures - especially when it comes to something as sacred as remembering what Christ did at Calvary.
I concentrate on the "DO THIS" part.
Me too and I leave the inventions of men to those who want to concentrate on them.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I just look at Jesus, Jesus could have single handily done everything, but the fact that he desires discipleship, to make disciplines,and to develop the church speaks volume of its value when having a holistic christian walk.

Sometimes I'm not reading for myself, sometimes I have to use it for the edifying of the body of Christ. And its hard to live that type of servitude and fellowship if I'm frequently isolating myself.
John's First Epistle speaks of fellowship with others who walk in the light, as a result of fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

We do need absolutely to beware of any idea of "the church" coming between the individual believer's Spirit led appreciation and understanding of the Word of God. In the final analysis, the true, spiritual body of Christ is utterly add odds with professing Christendom's character which follows the world's priorities.
 
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Mountainmike

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Did you know anything about Orthodox Churches during your decade of twists and turns that led to Rome?

Forgive me...

Clearly they were one and the Same for some centuries.

I studied a little of the schism...indeed the almost reintegration. At a doctrinal level, it seemed to me that orthodox preferred to leave as complete mystery things the Roman church defined.

At a spiritual level I love orthodox spirituality, and emphasis, such as advent

Whilst we agree on far more than we disagree, and the world has a habit of seeing a small mark of difference , not the far bigger white sheet of paper..
....on several issues I simply cannot agree with orthodox enough to mean the choice for me at least was clear in favour of Rome. Here is not the place!
 
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Marvin Knox

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Check out an Orthodox Christian Divine Liturgy. It is way better than a Solemn High Mass
I agree.

But it still includes the kissing of the right hand of an earthly priest and an unwarranted assumption that the bread and wine has become the body and blood of Christ.
I AM TRULY Born Again, and I resent the implication that I am not. I began cooperating with Christ--a term I like much more than "getting saved"--on October 12, 1977. That's 40 years! I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit the same night, so I do know how to operate in the Spirit! Please do not make that mistake again.
There was no such implication made by me or anyone else here that I am aware of.

I am familiar with your desire to use the term "cooperating" rather than "getting saved".

I began "cooperating with the Lord in 1958. We've both been baptized with the Holy Spirit for quite some time.

What mistake is that? I specifically said that I was assuming that you are "cooperating". I had no reason to believe otherwise.
Assuming that you are truly born again and are sealed with the Holy Spirit - your mileage obviously varies from what I see as likely response.
I realize that you may be a bit thin skinned considering what many Protestants feel is necessary to be "born again" and sometimes say about "high church" people.

But - please - don't threaten me again for any reason. That's against the rules of the forum and I will report you - monk or not.:) Thank you in advance.
Marvin, you miss the point. The Lord does not require us to re-crucify Christ at every Divine Liturgy.
Anytime there is the literal body and blood of the risen and glorified Son of Man carried about and eaten by men - there must be a re-crucifying of that bodily resurrected man.
Rather, we are mystically brought back to the Last Supper, and we (again mystically) experience Christ Himself saying to us, "This is my Body, this is my Blood." This happens by the action of the Holy Spirit, and while we remain in the Church, and time continues to pass, our experience tells us that we have again been to that Last Supper.
Fine - if you really mean "mystically" (assuming again that mystically means to you what it means to me) then I will agree with you and join you at such a table.

But, to some who mean if as some kind of a covering catch word, simply saying the word "mystically" doesn't cover the egregious re-sacrifice of the living Lord that would be required for the literal presence of His body and blood in the hands of a priesthood.
And there is no supposed insinuation. John, 6:35-49 tells us what Jesus said. In short, He said, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”
He also said that it was not meant literally but only as a figure of speech. And - still you make he same mistake those following Him made and take it literally.

"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:60-63

Again - assuming you mean the same by "mystically" as I do - I experience life in His Spirit when I remember His death in the communion service just as you do.

But you seem to be taking these things literally as did His mistaken followers (and not simply mystically).

You may not walk to and fro and lift the "host" up to the sun and pronounce "Hoc est Corpus Meum" to turn the elements into the literal body and blood of our Lord as the do in the RCC.

But your Orthodox "high" services still show forth things which a Bible believer would not find in the scriptures.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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It sounds like you have a lot of faith in a pastor, I have a lot of faith in God, how long are the services you attend.
I have had many pastors in the last 13 years. There is not just one. So, no, it’s not a following of a person, unless you mean Christ.

Some services are many hours long. And we stand. A lot. Why do you ask?

Forgive me...
 
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disciple1

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I have had many pastors in the last 13 years. There is not just one. So, no, it’s not a following of a person, unless you mean Christ.

Some services are many hours long. And we stand. A lot. Why do you ask?

Forgive me...
I was just wondering how long your service went, I can study the bible 2 hours, in the time it takes to go to church for an hour, and I get more out of it, and some churches think their owed money.
 
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Mountainmike

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I was just wondering how long your service went, I can study the bible 2 hours, in the time it takes to go to church for an hour, and I get more out of it, and some churches think their owed money.

There is no substitute for the Eucharist - our Lord really present there - the doctrine taught by the apostles to the very first Christians and handed down by them, and as a result it is the basis of the standard liturgy of early church so orthodox and catholic.

No amount of reading can replace it.
It was a direct ordinance of our Lord.
And it is free!....

Perhaps you should read the early fathers , then reconsider which church!
Read such as Ignatius to Smyrneans, Justin Martyr or even the Didache. So Find out what scripture means, not just what it says.
 
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I agree.

But it still includes the kissing of the right hand of an earthly priest and an unwarranted assumption that the bread and wine has become the body and blood of Christ.

There was no such implication made by me or anyone else here that I am aware of.

I am familiar with your desire to use the term "cooperating" rather than "getting saved".

I began "cooperating with the Lord in 1958. We've both been baptized with the Holy Spirit for quite some time.

What mistake is that? I specifically said that I was assuming that you are "cooperating". I had no reason to believe otherwise.

I realize that you may be a bit thin skinned considering what many Protestants feel is necessary to be "born again" and sometimes say about "high church" people.

But - please - don't threaten me again for any reason. That's against the rules of the forum and I will report you - monk or not.:) Thank you in advance.

Anytime there is the literal body and blood of the risen and glorified Son of Man carried about and eaten by men - there must be a re-crucifying of that bodily resurrected man.

Fine - if you really mean "mystically" (assuming again that mystically means to you what it means to me) then I will agree with you and join you at such a table.

But, to some who mean if as some kind of a covering catch word, simply saying the word "mystically" doesn't cover the egregious re-sacrifice of the living Lord that would be required for the literal presence of His body and blood in the hands of a priesthood.

He also said that it was not meant literally but only as a figure of speech. And - still you make he same mistake those following Him made and take it literally.

"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:60-63

Again - assuming you mean the same by "mystically" as I do - I experience life in His Spirit when I remember His death in the communion service just as you do.

But you seem to be taking these things literally as did His mistaken followers (and not simply mystically).

You may not walk to and fro and lift the "host" up to the sun and pronounce "Hoc est Corpus Meum" to turn the elements into the literal body and blood of our Lord as the do in the RCC.

But your Orthodox "high" services still show forth things which a Bible believer would not find in the scriptures.

Marvin,

Care to disassemble this with me? Would you like to be able to discern the differences of praxis between RCC and Orthodox? The whys and hows? And we do mean "mystically".

You'll have to accept my word that there is a very specific deposit of faith. And no, not everything we would want to know about Christianity is contained in the bible. That's easy to explain though... the bible itself is the 'service book' of The Church. It doesn't exactly explain itself that way. Nor is it presented that way. I wish everyone had one, and I wish that all of them were complete versions of the full canon.

Call me nostalgic, but I like understanding the services that are the very source of our scriptures. They are teaching tools, a play, an act with a twist of reality, repeated annually on a schedule with clergy moving in and out of the roles so that you don't concentrate on the person rather than the position.

In 14 years I have had 5 Presbyters, 3 Bishops, 2 Metropolitan and 2 Patriarchs, while I have stood still. Forgive me for saying so, but the names of these people are unimportant. They allowed me to see Christ through them and their services have raised my head into the heavens. That is their significance. When we kiss the hand of a Presbyter, we are kissing the hand of Christ. We see nothing else.

About the sacrifice. I'd like to share with you the actual words that we pray in asking for this, so you can see for yourself what it is we ask for, and what it is we believe.

I will highlight what I think will be important to you.

The Holy Anaphora

Deacon: Let us stand aright! Let us stand in awe! Let us be attentive, that we may present the Holy Offering in peace.

People: A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise.

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

People: And with your spirit.

Priest: Let us lift up our hearts.

People: We lift them up to the Lord.

Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord.

People: It is proper and right.

Priest (in a low voice): It is proper and right to hymn You, to bless You, to praise You, to give thanks to You, and to worship You in every place of Your dominion. For You, O God, are ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, existing forever, forever the same, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You brought us out of nothing into being, and when we had fallen away, You raised us up again. You left nothing undone until you had led us up to heaven and granted us Your Kingdom, which is to come. For all these things, we thank You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit: for all things we know and do not know, for blessings manifest and hidden that have been bestowed on us. We thank You also for this Liturgy, which You have deigned to receive from our hands, even though thousands of archangels and tens of thousands of angels stand around You, the Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring aloft upon their wings,

And he exclaims:

Singing the triumphal hymn, exclaiming, proclaiming, and saying…

People: Holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

Priest (in a low voice): Together with these blessed powers, Master, Who loves mankind, we also exclaim and say: Holy are You and most holy, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. Holy are You and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only-begotten Son so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. When He had come and fulfilled for our sake the entire plan of salvation, on the night in which He was delivered up, or rather when He delivered Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, and, giving thanks and blessing, He hallowed and broke it, and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

The Priest exclaims:

Take, eat, this is My Body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

The Priest then says in a low voice:

Likewise, after partaking of the supper, He took the cup, saying,

The Priest again exclaims:

Drink of this, all of you; this is My Blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

Then the Priest says in a low voice:

Remembering, therefore, this saving commandment and all that has been done for our sake: the Cross, the tomb, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming again.

And he exclaims:

Your own of Your own we offer to You, in all and for all.

People: We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Bread, says:

Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.

And the Priest blesses over the holy Bread and says:

And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.

Everyone: Amen.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Chalice, says:

Bless, Master, the holy Cup.

The Priest, blessing over the holy Chalice, says:

And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.

Everyone: Amen.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward both Holy Gifts, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, both the Holy Gifts.

The Priest, blessing both the Holy Bread and holy Chalice, says:

Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

Everyone: Amen. Amen. Amen.

The Priest says in a low voice:

So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer You this spiritual worship for those who have reposed in the faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

And he exclaims:

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary.

People: It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Logos. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.

The Priest says in a low voice:

For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy, glorious, and most praiseworthy apostles; for Saint(s) (Name), whose memory we celebrate; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, visit us, O God. And remember all who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection to life eternal (here the Priest commemorates by name those departed whom he wishes). Grant them rest, O our God, where the light of Your countenance keeps watch. Again we beseech You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, the presbyterate, the diaconate in Christ, and every priestly and monastic order. Again we offer You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and for those living pure and reverent lives. For civil authorities and our armed forces, grant that they may govern in peace, Lord, so that in their tranquility we, too, may live calm and serene lives, in all piety and virtue.

And he exclaims:

Among the first remember, Lord, our Archbishop (Name); grant him to Your holy churches in peace, safety, honor, and health, unto length of days, rightly teaching the word of Your truth.

The Deacon, facing the people, exclaims:

And remember those whom each one of us has in mind, and all the people.

People: And all the people.

The Priest prays the following prayer in a low voice:

Remember, Lord, this city in which we live, and every city and land, and the faithful who live in them. Remember, Lord, those who travel by land, sea, and air; the sick; the suffering; the captives; and their salvation. Remember those who bear fruit and do good works in Your holy churches and those who are mindful of the poor, and upon us all send forth Your mercies.

And he exclaims:

And grant that with one voice and one heart we may glorify and praise Your most honorable and majestic name, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.

Priest: And the mercies of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, be with you all.

People: And with your spirit.

The people respond with Lord, have mercy, after each petition.

Deacon: Having commemorated all the saints, again and again, in peace, let us pray to the Lord.

For the precious Gifts here presented and consecrated, let us pray to the Lord.

That our God Who loves mankind, having accepted them at His holy and celestial and mystical altar as an offering of spiritual fragrance, may in return send down upon us the divine grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, let us pray.

For our deliverance from all affliction, wrath, danger, and necessity, let us pray to the Lord.

Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and protect us, O God, by Your grace.

That the whole day may be perfect, holy, peaceful, and sinless, let us ask the Lord.

The people respond with Grant this, O Lord, after each petition.

For an angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian of our souls and bodies, let us ask the Lord.

For pardon and remission of our sins and transgressions, let us ask the Lord.

For that which is good and beneficial for our souls, and for peace for the world, let us ask the Lord.

That we may complete the remaining time of our life in peace and repentance, let us ask the Lord.

And let us ask for a Christian end to our life, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good defense before the awesome judgment seat of Christ.

Deacon: Having asked for the unity of the faith and for the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To You, O Lord.

Priest (in a low voice): We entrust to You, loving Master, our whole life and hope, and we beseech, pray, and implore You: Grant us to partake of Your heavenly and awesome Mysteries from this sacred and spiritual table with a clear conscience for the remission of sins, the forgiveness of transgressions, the communion of the Holy Spirit, the inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven, and boldness before You, not unto judgment or condemnation.

And he exclaims:

And grant us, Master, with boldness and without condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say:

The Clergy and the People:

The Lord’s Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Priest: For Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.

Priest: Peace be with all.

People: And with your spirit.

Deacon: Let us bow our heads to the Lord.

People: To You, O Lord.

Priest (in a low voice): We give thanks to You, invisible King, Who by Your boundless power fashioned the universe, and in the multitude of Your mercy brought all things from nothing into being. Look down from heaven, O Master, upon those who have bowed their heads before You; for they have not bowed before flesh and blood, but before You, the awesome God. Therefore, O Master, make smooth and beneficial for us all, whatever lies ahead, according to the need of each: Sail with those who sail; travel with those who travel; heal the sick, Physician of our souls and bodies.

And he exclaims:

Through the grace, compassion, and love for mankind of Your only-begotten Son, with whom You are blessed, together with Your all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." ~ Jesus Christ

If it were my text to edit, I would change Priest to Presbyter. The word priest just goes to show how much Judaism influenced the Roman order. We should not borrow such a word.

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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About the sacrifice. I'd like to share with you the actual words that we pray in asking for this, so you can see for yourself what it is we ask for, and what it is we believe.
I will highlight what I think will be important to you.
Thanks.
That looks like it was clipped from the link I myself provided.
I, of course, read it first.
If it were my text to edit, I would change Priest to Presbyter.
Me too.
The word priest just goes to show how much Judaism influenced the Roman order. We should not borrow such a word.
I agree.
Which, of course is the exact point of this discussion.
The traditions of men used in liturgies are often not found in the scriptures.
Whether or not that is true was the question posed in the OP - was it not?
It's a little hard to discern your exact question means - as others have noted.
But I think I understood correctly what you meant.
Which one is apt to see the services in the written scripture when any portion of one is mentioned?
My answer (if I understand the question correctly) is that the one who was reading only the scriptures would likely see things more correctly and the one watching a "high" service would be more likely to be witnessing and hearing things which are not scriptural.

The "priests" found in the high service being but one example. It is an example which you yourself have just agreed in not biblical.

My opinion based on what I know of RCC and Orthodox doctrine is that the "higher" the service (i.e. RCC/Vatican etc.) - the more likely there will events and words not supported by the scriptures. In some cases, like many practices of the RCC) they are darn right blasphemous IMO.

By the way - we have just been discussing one of the least egregious of the many high services we could cite - have we not? I'm not sure if this example was chosen by design or just happened to be one of the favorites of the poster who cited it.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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By the way - we have just been discussing one of the least egregious of the many high services we could cite - have we not? I'm not sure if this example was chosen by design or just happened to be one of the favorites of the poster who cited it.

The Divine Liturgy is THE high service. No substitutes allowed! :)

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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The Divine Liturgy is THE high service. No substitutes allowed! :)
If the cited service is indeed the only high service found in Orthodoxy - then I would say that there is little egregious found in the Orthodox high service - even though much of it would not be found in the scriptures.

However, I can't say that there is little egregious found in many or even most RCC services.

Still - my answer for the OP is that the person only reading his bible would be more likely to be understanding things more clearly than the one attending the high service - if indeed that was the question posed in the OP.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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If the cited service is indeed the only high service found in Orthodoxy - then I would say that there is little egregious found in the Orthodox high service - even though much of it would not be found in the scriptures.

That's because it is the scriptures... :)

(That was only the central portion.)

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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That's because it is the scriptures... :)
I'm not sure what that means but certainly it sounds heavy.

By the way - when I said that there was little egregious found in the service - that did not include any understanding that the bread and the wine literally became the body and blood of the resurrected Savior.

However, since that it isn't spelled out in the service itself as I read things-only in the understanding of all present, the "service" itself is not egregious as I see it.

I'm glad to see there isn't any of the "Mary" stuff in the service or I would indeed find it egregious.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I'm not sure what that means but certainly it sounds heavy.

By the way - when I said that there was little egregious found in the service - that did not include any understanding that the bread and the wine literally became the body and blood of the resurrected Savior.

However, since that it isn't spelled out in the service itself as I read things-only in the understanding of all present, the "service" itself is not egregious as I see it.

We do not attempt to explain the un-explainable. It's a mystery, and that's where it ends.

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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We do not attempt to explain the un-explainable. It's a mystery, and that's where it ends. Forgive me...
By the way - are you saying that the Liturgy we have been discussing is the only "high" service and is thus the only one applicable to the question posed in the OP or are there other service which Protestants such as I would deem "high"?
 
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disciple1

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There is no substitute for the Eucharist - our Lord really present there - the doctrine taught by the apostles to the very first Christians and handed down by them, and as a result it is the basis of the standard liturgy of early church so orthodox and catholic.

No amount of reading can replace it.
It was a direct ordinance of our Lord.
And it is free!....

Perhaps you should read the early fathers , then reconsider which church!
Read such as Ignatius to Smyrneans, Justin Martyr or even the Didache. So Find out what scripture means, not just what it says.
Read such as Ignatius to Smyrneans, Justin Martyr or even the Didache. So Find out what scripture means, not just what it says.
Most pastors don't know what the bible says or what it means.

And the bible has nothing good to say about pastors.

As far as reading something other than the bible.

Ecclesiastes chapter 12 verse 12
Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
 
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Monk Brendan

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But - please - don't threaten me again for any reason. That's against the rules of the forum and I will report you - monk or not.:) Thank you in advance.

I was not threatening. Far from it. I simply said:
Please do not make that mistake again.

Anytime there is the literal body and blood of the risen and glorified Son of Man carried about and eaten by men - there must be a re-crucifying of that bodily resurrected man.

Why? First of all, I did not say that Christ is being crucified again. I realize that this was the attitude of some Roman Catholics before Vatican II, but it has never been the truth. Rather, as I mentioned in a different post, we are mystically taken back to the Last Supper, where we hear Jesus saying, "This is my BODY, this is my BLOOD." Then we share in that meal.

But, to some who mean if as some kind of a covering catch word, simply saying the word "mystically" doesn't cover the egregious re-sacrifice of the living Lord that would be required for the literal presence of His body and blood in the hands of a priesthood.

Again, we do not re-sacrifice the Living Lord. Even as we are mystically at the Last Supper, we are also standing at the foot of the Cross hearing Jesus cry out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" We also hear the, "It is finished."

You may not walk to and fro and lift the "host" up to the sun and pronounce "Hoc est Corpus Meum" to turn the elements into the literal body and blood of our Lord as the do in the RCC.

WHO, besides Jack Chick, actually says that when we offer up the bread and wine, that we are offering it up to the sun? That is a loathsome comment, and it is offensive to me, and to any other Catholic, and probably to some Orthodox as well.

BTW, "Hoc est enim Corpus Meum" means "This is my body." and "Hic est enim calix sanguinus mei" means "this is the chalice of my blood."

That is what come from believing Jack Chick!
 
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