Two men are reading the same bible...

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No - but it appears to be very meaningful to all those who have.

Nor does there seem to be much wrong in it even if one is not Orthodox.

However some of the things said in the communion service concerning the bread and wine vis a vis the body and blood should give one pause if they have read the appropriated passages in the scripture.

The kissing of the priest's ring and the like are not warranted from the scriptures.

Other liturgical services and practices than the one you cite may well be more egregious if I attended them.

I clearly said the following.

I can't speak to your relationship to the Holy Spirit. It may be or it may not be a born again and sealed relationship.

As I said, "it seems to me" that many of the things seen in "high" church services would tend to keep a born again person away in the future in many case.

Assuming that you are truly born again and are sealed with the Holy Spirit - your mileage obviously varies from what I see as likely response.

By the way - I enjoy a good amount of liturgy as well - so long as the practices and doctrines line up with what I see in the scriptures.

Also - I am more familiar with "high" church services related to RCC than Orthodox.

I was glad to read your final sentence, because it would seem that you have run us together. "Kissing a Priest's ring" for instance. I do believe you would owe the Orthodox a fair shake. I bet with several conversations you would be convinced of her righteousness in services.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Speaking of "high", aren't there churches that burn incense during the service?
I found this interesting and may start burning it in my house....

Does Incense Get You High? - Zamnesia Blog

New research shows the age-old tradition of burning incense is more than just a religious symbol: The smoke lifts up the mood and fights depression.
Did you ever notice that unique calm instilled by the smell of incense? Now science suggests this may be no coincidence. It turns out the smoke of frankincense can measurably relieve the symptoms of anxiety and depression..........

Incense is right in middle between aromatherapy and smoking. Aromatherapy is based on smell and the power of the aromatic compounds to enhance one’s wellbeing.................

Rev 18:
4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
11
“And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:
13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

Could church incense be banned as 'legal high'?

Could church incense be banned as ‘legal high’?
Cathedral clerics lobby MPs to include exception for substances which set minds on a higher plane

You are hilarious!

Fogive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Once more.
John chapter 1 verse 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I noticed that you capitalized "Word", and you were correct to do so.

Um... Logos... the Greek word is LOGOS, meaning that 'Christ Jesus' is the very image of God, and that Christ Jesus is the God that walked in the garden.

Attending Church services would clear that up.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have an issue with the question as stated. I believe the author is asking if a person is more likely to see movement of liturgy in the scriptures while hearing the scriptures read during liturgy as opposed to not seeing liturgy in the the same scriptures while reading alone. Please correct me if I am wrong.

That said, I believe the question invites a false dichotomy. First, there is an assumption that to "read" is in the modern context. For the majority of Church history "reading" meant having a reader read aloud a text in the presence of others. This was true of both sacred and secular texts since all were essentially manuscripts until the age of the printing press in the fifteenth century. Only the vary privileged and well connected would have had access an entire printing of the bible in the first place. What would have been done was that service books would have had a lectionary where the scriptures would have been read during the course of the church year. These portions of scripture would have been touching on the main doctrinal points in the New Testament, Psalms and major events in the Old Testament but would not had the entire bible printed (copied by hand) in one of these lectionaries. It would have been too costly to have commissioned such a work in a poor rural area. In addition there would have been small prayer books that some would have carried, again, mostly NT and the Psalms, perhaps a few readings from the OT as well. This is to say nothing of the Monastic services where the various offices had scripture read as well.

All of that is not to say there is simply one way to read scripture. Since the advent of the printing press the common person has had for the most part access to the bible. A person now has the opportunity like the monks and academics before to read the bible alone. However, there is no prohibition to study scripture apart from liturgy. Let me be clear, even the reformers of the sixteenth century of which I am an heir would have ever have believed in Solo (not Sola) Scriptura. This is typically characterized as "Just my bible me alone". The Reformation was in many ways the result of having printed bibles where people could read for themselves (if literate) what the bible actually said. Moreover there was a flowering of scholarship that allowed academics in the west to take a more critical eye towards the Latin Vulgate translation which was and still is the source of many of Rome's errors. There is a lot more that could be said regarding this development.

So while this resulted in the fracturing of the Church in the west, many of the church bodies that resulted still use a liturgy derived from the ancient Latin Mass. For example, I as an Anglican use the liturgy as found in the Book of Common Prayer (1928). I know Lutherans use a similar liturgy as well is a number of Reformed Churches. One only gets to the free for all church services in the middle of the nineteenth century. Prior to this most Protestant churches had a liturgy, sang the Psalms and read the bible corporately and privately. While it may be true today where evangelical churches resemble more of a rock concert with a pep talk in the middle this was never the practice of the historic church and therefore this question could make sense in the last 150 years.

I am a 'Reader'.

Duties
An ordained reader has the following duties:

• Read Old Testament readings during services,
• Read the epistle during the Divine Liturgy and other services,
• Chant psalms,
• Chant the verses for prokeimenons, the alleluia, the antiphons,
• Sing other appointed hymns during the divine services.
• Care for the parish's liturgical books.

In addition to this, the reader will usually:

• Construct the services according to the typicon.
• Sing in the choir.

As a member of minor clergy, a reader - according to his abilities - might be entrusted with the duties of:

• Cantor
• Catechist
• Other leadership roles in the community.

Reader - OrthodoxWiki
Reader (liturgy) - Wikipedia

Forgive me...

 

[SkyWriting]

Knowing the Scriptures from a divine perspective means removing human bias, first.

"Natural man" bias. And it's not going to happen anyway.

 

[SkyWriting]

Attending Church services would clear that up.

Sunday class is much more helpful than services are.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The same goes for the veneration of Mary and or the saints and or relics.

This one really gets me. I think it's because the farther I followed this back in time the further it went.
I wind up with St. Luke creating the first Christian icon called 'Theotokos', commonly called 'mother and child' during Mary's lifetime and with everyones approval. Then to go on and find that copies of that icon were distributed from Antioch by St. Luke along with at least one copy of what would become a Gospel book. The book of Matthew.

So it comes down to this. Matthew came with at least one icon. Books with pictures instead of scrolls. Who would have thought.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The part where He "supposedly" insinuated that any such remembrance of Him would require that His resurrected body and any blood therein would be broken and shed again and again at the behest of a special earthly priesthood who had authority on the earth to make it happen.

By the way - if you insist on taking this scripture literally - you need to recognize that the bread and wine present at the last supper was His body and blood - and that there is no scriptural mandate that says that some other bread and wine purchased 2000 years later at a grocery store on another continent by a special priesthood and used in a special church service would also be the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

This is purely human manufactured dogma and has no basis in the scriptures.

I would suggest reading the text of the 'Anaphora' prayers. You won't find the text in the bible, then realize that St. Paul did this too (and you can see that in scripture), Paul was not taught by men but Christ himself. He was not at the last supper.

It is the completed order of Melchizedek, an order of bread and wine from the OT. The entire service is known as the Divine Liturgy.

We are endangering our souls by speaking against Christ's commands. I'm just hoping you see that.

I concentrate on the "DO THIS" part.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

can I play this video while reading scripture and I should be ok?

Well if you were attending live services for a year, you would have the entire bible (minus Revelation) read to you, in the correct context. Not comparing one book to another etc.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes. Two thirds of my family growing up was Roman Catholic. One third Eastern Orthodox. It was not until I was an Evangelical and read Revelation did I realize a lot of an Eastern Orthodox service is right out of the St John's scene in Heaven.

And I remember standing a lot...a lot. At least Roman Catholics kneel during mass. Y'all sure do stand a lot.

We have breaks... we sit for several things. The biggest being the homily. Sometimes were glad to have a long one!

Yesterday we had four baptisms. I think it was seven hours of services total.

My feet were tired, but my spirit was overjoyed!

Forgive me...

 

[redleghunter]

Well if you were attending live services for a year, you would have the entire bible (minus Revelation) read to you, in the correct context. Not comparing one book to another etc.

Forgive me...

Forgive me, but Obadiah as well?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Forgive me, but Obadiah as well?

That is the idea. Go to all the services for one year and hear the 'entire' canon (bible). People did not have a copy for themselves and most could not have read them if they had. This is where calendaring and everyone keeping the same schedule of celebrations comes in... feasts and fasts.

"The God-inspired work of Saint Obadiah is the fourth of the Books of the Twelve Minor Prophets in the Bible, and contains predictions about the New Testament Church. The holy Prophet Obadiah was buried in Samaria."

Troparion — Tone 2

We celebrate the memory / of Your prophet Obadiah, O Lord; / through him we beseech You: / “Save our souls.”

Kontakion — Tone 1
The great Obadiah, acquiring a mind luminous with divine splendor, / speaks through the Holy Spirit, proclaiming things to come. / Today we honor him with faithful minds, / celebrating his holy memory which enlightens the hearts of men.

Forgive me...

 

[salt-n-light]

I just look at Jesus, Jesus could have single handily done everything, but the fact that he desires discipleship, to make disciplines,and to develop the church speaks volume of its value when having a holistic christian walk.

Sometimes I'm not reading for myself, sometimes I have to use it for the edifying of the body of Christ. And its hard to live that type of servitude and fellowship if I'm frequently isolating myself.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I just look at Jesus, Jesus could have single handily done everything, but the fact that he desires discipleship, to make disciplines,and to develop the church speaks volume of its value when having a holistic christian walk.

Sometimes I'm not reading for myself, sometimes I have to use it for the edifying of the body of Christ. And its hard to live that type of servitude and fellowship if I'm frequently isolating myself.

That's not surprising. Think about who is working against you and how our society has geared us towards isolation. I encourage you to try and break that cycle.

Forgive me...

 

[Monk Brendan]

Also - I am more familiar with "high" church services related to RCC than Orthodox.

Check out an Orthodox Christian Divine Liturgy. It is way better than a Solemn High Mass

Assuming that you are truly born again and are sealed with the Holy Spirit - your mileage obviously varies from what I see as likely response.

I AM TRULY Born Again, and I resent the implication that I am not. I began cooperating with Christ--a term I like much more than "getting saved"--on October 12, 1977. That's 40 years! I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit the same night, so I do know how to operate in the Spirit! Please do not make that mistake again.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The part where He "supposedly" insinuated that any such remembrance of Him would require that His resurrected body and any blood therein would be broken and shed again and again at the behest of a special earthly priesthood who had authority on the earth to make it happen.

Marvin, you miss the point. The Lord does not require us to re-crucify Christ at every Divine Liturgy. Rather, we are mystically brought back to the Last Supper, and we (again mystically) experience Christ Himself saying to us, "This is my Body, this is my Blood." This happens by the action of the Holy Spirit, and while we remain in the Church, and time continues to pass, our experience tells us that we have again been to that Last Supper.

And there is no supposed insinuation. John, 6:35-49 tells us what Jesus said. In short, He said, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”

 

[Mountainmike]

I think you are hitting the nail on the head actually. Are you cradle Catholic? I have a feeling you have never sat on the other side of this equation.

Forgive me...

Absolutely not cradle.

I am a Protestant ( Anglican) turned evangelical, who couldn't work out why the church they described had no correlation with early church fathers.... a journey of twists and turns that lasted a decade that led back to Rome.

I know all the Protestant anti catholic playbook arguments, I used them myself, till I found the holes in them! - one of the most disappointing things for me was cradle Catholics could explain what they believed, but few could justify why they believed it, so were easy prey to evangelicals.

 

[Monk Brendan]

“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

Could church incense be banned as 'legal high'?

Could church incense be banned as ‘legal high’?
Cathedral clerics lobby MPs to include exception for substances which set minds on a higher plane

I am incensed that the Pope gets no respect! Incense was used during the Old Testament at the Temple in Jerusalem! It's use is very Scriptural! There are at least 140 references to incense in the Scriptures. Seeing as how most people would be very bored, and might lose their eyesight before getting through the references, I am not going to bother with listing even the address of all of them.

In the age to come, two smells are going to prevail. The burning of incense in heaven, or the burning of sulfur in hell. Which would you rather have?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Absolutely not cradle.

I am a Protestant ( Anglican) turned evangelical, who couldn't work out why the church they described had no correlation with early church fathers.... a journey of twists and turns that lasted a decade that led back to Rome.

I know all the Protestant anti catholic playbook arguments, I used them myself, till I found the holes in them! - one of the most disappointing things for me was cradle Catholics could explain what they believed, but few could justify why they believed it, so were easy prey to evangelicals.

Did you know anything about Orthodox Churches during your decade of twists and turns that led to Rome?

Forgive me...

 

[disciple1]

I noticed that you capitalized "Word", and you were correct to do so.

Um... Logos... the Greek word is LOGOS, meaning that 'Christ Jesus' is the very image of God, and that Christ Jesus is the God that walked in the garden.

Attending Church services would clear that up.

Forgive me...

It sounds like you have a lot of faith in a pastor, I have a lot of faith in God, how long are the services you attend.