Two doves and two pigeons of Nativity

[James_Lai]

God gave the life of His own Son to save us, does that sound like a "Super Bully"?

Redemption teaching is not the same as animal sacrifice commandments

 

[Martinius]

Animal sacrifice continues today, in America and elsewhere. Organized dog and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fights occur in many places, and animals are bred for that purpose...to kill or be killed. We have not really advanced morally as much as we think. nor are we as civilized as we like to believe.

 

[Clare73]

If we believe so

And, of course, this is the issue. . .belief or unbelief.

Some believe the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, some do not.
I do. . .you do not.

Each must bear the consequences of their own decisions.

 

[Clare73]

Redemption teaching is not the same as animal sacrifice commandments

So what is the difference?

 

[Clare73]

Animal sacrifice continues today, in America and elsewhere. Organized dog and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fights occur in many places, and animals are bred for that purpose...to kill or be killed. We have not really advanced morally as much as we think. nor are we as civilized as we like to believe.

Those animals are sacrificed as atonement for sin (Romans 3:25)?

If they are not, then they are nowhere even near the same as the OT animal sacrifices.

Rather glib and loose handling of Scripture, don't you think (2 Peter 3:16)?

 

[Martinius]

Those animals are sacrificed as atonement for sin (Romans 3:25)?

If they are not, then they are nowhere even near the same as the OT animal sacrifices.

Rather glib and loose handling of Scripture, don't you think (2 Peter 3:16)?

As usual, you seem to mis-read what I write, and mis-understand my meaning (although I thought I was quite clear).

Killing animals, not to get food to live, but to burn up to assuage an angry god, doesn't seem to me like a good way to atone for personal sins. I can see no reason why any true deity would want that; sounds quite superstitious and pagan to me. I like Jesus' view in asking for a change of heart from us rather than a "burnt offering".

Of course the killing of animals in a fighting ring is not sacrifice to a deity; rather, it is sacrifice to the god of money.

I am really puzzled by your scripture references and how they apply to this thread or what I wrote. Perhaps they were intended for another thread.

 

[James_Lai]

Animal sacrifice continues today, in America and elsewhere. Organized dog and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fights occur in many places, and animals are bred for that purpose...to kill or be killed. We have not really advanced morally as much as we think. nor are we as civilized as we like to believe.

In some ways, probably way worse..

 

[Clare73]

As usual, you seem to mis-read what I write, and mis-understand my meaning (although I thought I was quite clear).

Killing animals, not to get food to live, but to burn up to assuage an angry god, doesn't seem to me like a good way to atone for personal sins.

First of all, it does to me if it means keeping me out of Gehenna, which divine justice demands for sin.

And secondly, so God got it wrong in Leviticus, and the OT sacrifices should never have occurred?

Who made you the Lawgiver of the Universe?

I can see no reason why any true deity would want that; sounds quite superstitious and pagan to me. I like Jesus' view in asking for a change of heart from us rather than a "burnt offering".

And the context of what Jesus said?

He was speaking to those who offered sacrifices with wicked hearts.
Both God and Jesus prefer a change of heart to a hypocritically-offered sacrifice for sin, and which
does not negate God's purpose of sacrifice in the OT (to show the meaning of Christ's coming death),
nor the purpose of the supreme sacrifice in the NT.

I am really puzzled by your scripture references and how they apply to this thread or what I wrote.

They apply to what you posted.

Romans 3:25 states Jesus' bloody sacrifice as atonement (payment of the penalty/ransom, Matthew 20:28 for sin), which is to redeem/buy back from God's justice on sin--Gehenna.

2 Peter 3:16 addresses ignorance and loose-handling of Scripture, and its consequences.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you think the commandments in the Torah aren’t of God?

I do think they are from God. But animal sacrifice was around in a lot of cultures before the Torah was given. What I'm getting at is that sacrifice was an incredibly common practice. The Torah doesn't invent it, but takes a practice that already existed and directed it to a different focus. For one, human sacrifice was explicitly condemned, secondly the Torah regulated that animals had to be slaughtered in a more humane way, thirdly the Torah directs the significance of sacrifice away from trying to appease capricious gods and spirits toward the recognition of the sanctity of life.

That last one may be difficult, but I mean the following: Animal sacrifice does not negate the value of life, but insists on it: the life of the animal being sacrificed is not meaningless. The loss of the animal's life is not to be taken for granted, its death was understood as transformative--its blood, its spilled-out-life points to realities in our own lives that need serious contemplation. And the point of the sacrifice was never just the sacrifice itself. In Psalm 51, the famous penitential hymn of King David, says, "For You will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; You will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

St. Paul says in his Epistle to the Galatians, "The Torah was our paidagogos toward Christ, that we might be justified through faith". That word paidagogos is usually translated as "tutor", "schoolmaster" or "guardian". It is literally "instructor-of-children", but contextually refers to a household slave in Greco-Roman culture whose job it was to rear up children through discipline. The Law served as an instructor of children, pointing toward Christ, in Christ there is the full maturity of faith.

Sacrifice points to contrition, to the uncleanness of sin that needs addressing. The true sacrifice was never the blood of bulls and lambs and pigeons, but genuine contrition. For Christians this fullness of truth is found in Jesus whose Passion is the Hilasterion for sin. The Greek word hilasterion refers to the "covering" on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies where the high priest would sprinkle blood on Yom Kippur. The Hebrew word for this same thing is kapporet, from the verb kaphar meaning "to cover" and also "to wipe away". Martin Luther in his German translation coined a German term Gnadenstuhl (literally "grace-seat"), from which the English term "mercy seat" comes. William Tyndale is often credited for having coined the term atonement; literally as a combining of "at+one+ment"; to bring together, to unite together, to bring into a state of reconciliation and togetherness. Other English translators have chosen to render this as propitiation.

In other words, Christ's own Self-Offering of Himself, the spilling of His innocent blood and His death as the innocent victim becomes the Mercy Seat, the place of Atonement, the work of Atonement, the act of Peace-making between God and man; rendering sin forgiven, debts canceled, wrongs righted. His blood has become the true blood of covering, He has become the true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

God is not appeased by blood. He never has been. He isn't like the capricious and petty gods of the nations who "need" to be appeased. God doesn't need to be appeased at all. Appeasement is not the point. The redemption and healing and salvation of the world is the point.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[Martinius]

Hmmm...I see a couple of mourning doves at the feeder outside my window. Maybe I should grab them, kill them and burn them in my fire pit, offering them up as atonement for my sins. Jesus must want me to do that, since it's in the Bible.

And there is a farm field with cattle, a short distance from here. Wouldn't that be an even better sacrifice? I'm sure my Lord, who must have a very large but fragile ego, wants the biggest possible sacrifice. At the Jerusalem Temple, the rich people who could afford goats, lambs and cattle must have been held in greater favor by God, who probably dismissed the measly sacrifices of the poor people, like Joseph and Mary.

I could offer the rancher money for one of his animals, and explain to him that I need it to make a burnt offering to God. I'm sure he would understand, and probably does the same myself. But I am not really experienced in or equipped for butchering big animals. Plus, my firepit isn't big enough to roast such an animal. Maybe I could get a calf instead. Would God be disappointed in me if I sacrificed the smaller animal? Or could I just ask my neighbor if I could join in one of his sacrifices...I could bring the lighter fluid.

After thinking this over, I think my best choice is to get one or two of those doves. There's a lot of them around and a couple wouldn't be missed. Maybe I could even go into the business, capture a few and sell them to my neighbors for their sacrifices.

Oh, forget it. I'll just put a steak on the grill and say a prayer for forgiveness

 

[Martinius]

The Torah regulated that animals had to be slaughtered in a more humane way

Is that like the "humane treatment of slaves"? I'm sure the animals appreciated that they were executed in a humane way, just like slaves appreciated being whipped only weekly instead of daily.

 

[James_Lai]

I do think they are from God. But animal sacrifice was around in a lot of cultures before the Torah was given. What I'm getting at is that sacrifice was an incredibly common practice. The Torah doesn't invent it, but takes a practice that already existed and directed it to a different focus. For one, human sacrifice was explicitly condemned, secondly the Torah regulated that animals had to be slaughtered in a more humane way, thirdly the Torah directs the significance of sacrifice away from trying to appease capricious gods and spirits toward the recognition of the sanctity of life.

That last one may be difficult, but I mean the following: Animal sacrifice does not negate the value of life, but insists on it: the life of the animal being sacrificed is not meaningless. The loss of the animal's life is not to be taken for granted, its death was understood as transformative--its blood, its spilled-out-life points to realities in our own lives that need serious contemplation. And the point of the sacrifice was never just the sacrifice itself. In Psalm 51, the famous penitential hymn of King David, says, "For You will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; You will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

St. Paul says in his Epistle to the Galatians, "The Torah was our paidagogos toward Christ, that we might be justified through faith". That word paidagogos is usually translated as "tutor", "schoolmaster" or "guardian". It is literally "instructor-of-children", but contextually refers to a household slave in Greco-Roman culture whose job it was to rear up children through discipline. The Law served as an instructor of children, pointing toward Christ, in Christ there is the full maturity of faith.

Sacrifice points to contrition, to the uncleanness of sin that needs addressing. The true sacrifice was never the blood of bulls and lambs and pigeons, but genuine contrition. For Christians this fullness of truth is found in Jesus whose Passion is the Hilasterion for sin. The Greek word hilasterion refers to the "covering" on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies where the high priest would sprinkle blood on Yom Kippur. The Hebrew word for this same thing is kapporet, from the verb kaphar meaning "to cover" and also "to wipe away". Martin Luther in his German translation coined a German term Gnadenstuhl (literally "grace-seat"), from which the English term "mercy seat" comes. William Tyndale is often credited for having coined the term atonement; literally as a combining of "at+one+ment"; to bring together, to unite together, to bring into a state of reconciliation and togetherness. Other English translators have chosen to render this as propitiation.

In other words, Christ's own Self-Offering of Himself, the spilling of His innocent blood and His death as the innocent victim becomes the Mercy Seat, the place of Atonement, the work of Atonement, the act of Peace-making between God and man; rendering sin forgiven, debts canceled, wrongs righted. His blood has become the true blood of covering, He has become the true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

God is not appeased by blood. He never has been. He isn't like the capricious and petty gods of the nations who "need" to be appeased. God doesn't need to be appeased at all. Appeasement is not the point. The redemption and healing and salvation of the world is the point.

-CryptoLuthearn

Animal sacrifice is taking innocent life. Our lesser brothers. Nobody else can ever be responsible for your actions but you. If the 3rd temple is restored and all the 613 Mitzvot are re-instated, do you realize how many animals would have to be slaughtered, burned, blood smeared on people’s ears, fingers and toes etc? It’s fairly easy to calculate for a nation of 5 million, add visitors from the Diaspora….

It’s a tragedy, it’s horror

 

[Clare73]

Hmmm...I see a couple of mourning doves at the feeder outside my window. Maybe I should grab them, kill them and burn them in my fire pit, offering them up as atonement for my sins. Jesus must want me to do that, since it's in the Bible.

And there is a farm field with cattle, a short distance from here. Wouldn't that be an even better sacrifice? I'm sure my Lord, who must have a very large but fragile ego, wants the biggest possible sacrifice. At the Jerusalem Temple, the rich people who could afford goats, lambs and cattle must have been held in greater favor by God, who probably dismissed the measly sacrifices of the poor people, like Joseph and Mary.

I could offer the rancher money for one of his animals, and explain to him that I need it to make a burnt offering to God. I'm sure he would understand, and probably does the same myself. But I am not really experienced in or equipped for butchering big animals. Plus, my firepit isn't big enough to roast such an animal. Maybe I could get a calf instead. Would God be disappointed in me if I sacrificed the smaller animal? Or could I just ask my neighbor if I could join in one of his sacrifices...I could bring the lighter fluid.

After thinking this over, I think my best choice is to get one or two of those doves. There's a lot of them around and a couple wouldn't be missed. Maybe I could even go into the business, capture a few and sell them to my neighbors for their sacrifices.

Oh, forget it. I'll just put a steak on the grill and say a prayer for forgiveness

Are you mocking the word of God in Leviticus?

Do Catholics and disciples of Jesus do that?

 

[Clare73]

Animal sacrifice is taking innocent life. Our lesser brothers. Nobody else can ever be responsible for your actions but you. If the 3rd temple is restored and all the 613 Mitzvot are re-instated, do you realize how many animals would have to be slaughtered, burned, blood smeared on people’s ears, fingers and toes etc? It’s fairly easy to calculate for a nation of 5 million, add visitors from the Diaspora….

It’s a tragedy, it’s horror

Are they all lepers and priests?

Are you personifying animals?
I do.

Would you have a problem with a murdering butcher of children being killed in punishment?

Crickets. . .

 

[ViaCrucis]

Animal sacrifice is taking innocent life. Our lesser brothers. Nobody else can ever be responsible for your actions but you. If the 3rd temple is restored and all the 613 Mitzvot are re-instated, do you realize how many animals would have to be slaughtered, burned, blood smeared on people’s ears, fingers and toes etc? It’s fairly easy to calculate for a nation of 5 million, add visitors from the Diaspora….

It’s a tragedy, it’s horror

That's a pretty specific hypothetical situation. Is there reason to think that's going to happen?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[disciple Clint]

Then you have to consider God to be cruel and barbaric, as he initiated the animal sacrifice system in Judaism.

No God was kind a loving and allowing man to repent for his sins and maintain the relationship with God. None of that would be required if man did not sin, the blame is all man's

 

[disciple Clint]

Redemption teaching is not the same as animal sacrifice commandments

Why do you say that, clearly they are linked.

 

[James_Lai]

Why do you say that, clearly they are linked.

Absolutely. They are not equal though.

 

[James_Lai]

That's a pretty specific hypothetical situation. Is there reason to think that's going to happen?

-CryptoLutheran

That’s why I’m saying “if”. It’s one thing to discuss an idea in abstract terms, it’s another to understand its practical implications if that idea becomes a reality…

It’s like people not caring about Islamic teachings because of tolerance, freedom and respect and all, until they hear about honour killing or gays beaten up happening in their neighbourhood.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That’s why I’m saying “if”. It’s one thing to discuss an idea in abstract terms, it’s another to understand its practical implications if that idea becomes a reality…

It’s like people not caring about Islamic teachings because of tolerance, freedom and respect and all, until they hear about honour killing or gays beaten up happening in their neighbourhood.

I think in this case whatever scenario you're imagining is very unlikely.

-CryptoLutheran