Two doves and two pigeons of Nativity

[James_Lai]

Hello.
I’m reading and reading the gospels, and always thinking about everything. So because it’s Christmas season or as it’s now customary to say Holiday Season to be politically correct, I read the gospels with emphases on Nativity.

In Luke 2:24, forty days following the first ever Christmas, Joseph and Mary bring newborn Jesus to the Jerusalem temple and offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons as per Leviticus 12:1-4 as a burnt and a sin offering to cleanse Mary from ceremonial uncleanliness after childbirth. If it were a girl, they’d have to wait for 80 days before performing this ritual…

I’ve studied the OT, and it’s clear what Joseph and Mary did there, following the Torah of Moses.

I’m a vegan and a passionate animal rights advocate. I often volunteer in a Humane Society. I’ve adopted several animals, one of them to save from euthanasia due to health and behavioural issues. I also love biology and studied ornithology as a hobby, especially how migrating birds navigate their annual flyways.

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice, but it hurts me to the core to read about two beautiful and gentle birds that were mercilessly slaughtered and one was burnt, and the blood of the other was smeared on Mary’s ear, thumb and toe. The senseless violence and disrespect towards the living creatures is simply shocking to me… So heartlessly cruel.

I have witnessed sheep sacrifice during Eid-al-Adha / Qurban Aid / Udhiya in Muslim countries… Not a pleasant sight at all, I feel sick to my stomach just thinking and writing about it right now….

I think about it a lot a lot. It makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

How do you justify the whole idea of animal sacrifice? Does it seem repulsive to you or are you okay with it?

 

[Martinius]

I am not okay with it, but one cannot change the past. Thankfully, that is no longer the accepted practice. Early Judeo-Christian practices were not much different than pagan rituals.

One can also see that the Temple in Jerusalem had become a place of business more than a place of worship. When you think of what went on there, it was a combination religious temple, commercial marketplace, a Greek-like debating forum and a political rally site.

Of course, when you think of the millions and millions of people who have been killed in the name of God, a few birds doesn't seem so bad.

 

[SANTOSO]

Hello.
I’m reading and reading the gospels, and always thinking about everything. So because it’s Christmas season or as it’s now customary to say Holiday Season to be politically correct, I read the gospels with emphases on Nativity.

In Luke 2:24, forty days following the first ever Christmas, Joseph and Mary bring Jesus to Jerusalem temple and offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons as per Leviticus 12:1-4 as a burnt and a sin offering to cleanse Mary from ceremonial uncleanliness after childbirth. I it were a girl, they’d have to wait for 80 days before performing this ritual…

I’ve studied the OT, and it’s clear what Joseph and Mary did there, following the Torah of Moses.

I’m a vegan and a passionate animal rights advocate. I often volunteer in a Humane Society. I also love biology and studied ornithology as a hobby, especially how migrating birds navigate their annual flyways.

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice, but it hurts me to the core to read about two beautiful and gentle birds that were mercilessly slaughtered and one was burnt, and the blood of the another was smeared on Mary’s ear, thumb and toe. The senseless violence and disrespect towards the living creatures is simply shocking to me…

I have witnessed sheep sacrifice during Eid-al-Adha / Qurban Aid / Udhiya in Muslim countries… Not a pleasant sight at all, I feel sick at my stomach just thinking and writing about it right now….

I think about it a lot a lot. It makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

How do you justify the whole idea of animal sacrifice? Does it seem repulsive to you or are you okay with it?

Beloved one, we should consider what we have heard:

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

but because of our Lord Jesus Christ who subject the creation including animals in hope.

So let us give thanks to the Lord for His grace.

To God be thanksgiving through Christ. Amen.

 

[Tolworth John]

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice,

makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

Then why the shock and horror at animal sacrifice in the bible?

What is tru shocking is the valuing of animals over peoples or there obedience to God.

 

[disciple Clint]

Hello.
I’m reading and reading the gospels, and always thinking about everything. So because it’s Christmas season or as it’s now customary to say Holiday Season to be politically correct, I read the gospels with emphases on Nativity.

In Luke 2:24, forty days following the first ever Christmas, Joseph and Mary bring Jesus to Jerusalem temple and offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons as per Leviticus 12:1-4 as a burnt and a sin offering to cleanse Mary from ceremonial uncleanliness after childbirth. I it were a girl, they’d have to wait for 80 days before performing this ritual…

I’ve studied the OT, and it’s clear what Joseph and Mary did there, following the Torah of Moses.

I’m a vegan and a passionate animal rights advocate. I often volunteer in a Humane Society. I also love biology and studied ornithology as a hobby, especially how migrating birds navigate their annual flyways.

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice, but it hurts me to the core to read about two beautiful and gentle birds that were mercilessly slaughtered and one was burnt, and the blood of the another was smeared on Mary’s ear, thumb and toe. The senseless violence and disrespect towards the living creatures is simply shocking to me…

I have witnessed sheep sacrifice during Eid-al-Adha / Qurban Aid / Udhiya in Muslim countries… Not a pleasant sight at all, I feel sick at my stomach just thinking and writing about it right now….

I think about it a lot a lot. It makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

How do you justify the whole idea of animal sacrifice? Does it seem repulsive to you or are you okay with it?

My first thought is, since animals were killed for food as a standard practice, who would find it objectionable to sacrifice an animal for the purpose of atonement? The wages of sin is death, death is a requirement for the atonement to right our relationship with God. As you said you understand the theology of the sacrifice of Jesus, so I will not expound on it unless there are questions.

 

[James_Lai]

I am not okay with it, but one cannot change the past. Thankfully, that is no longer the accepted practice. Early Judeo-Christian practices were not much different than pagan rituals.

One can also see that the Temple in Jerusalem had become a place of business more than a place of worship. When you think of what went on there, it was a combination religious temple, commercial marketplace, a Greek-like debating forum and a political rally site.

Of course, when you think of the millions and millions of people who have been killed in the name of God, a few birds doesn't seem so bad.

Maybe if you normalize animal murder and become desensitized to such violence, it’s only a minor step on to exterminating your own kind… I was reading once about a study of psychology of serial killers… There was one case where the victims’ lives were taken in exactly the same manner pigs are slaughtered by farmers. Indeed, the perpetrator turned out to be a praised butcher.

 

[James_Lai]

Beloved one, we should consider what we have heard:

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

but because of our Lord Jesus Christ who subject the creation including animals in hope.

So let us give thanks to the Lord for His grace.

To God be thanksgiving through Christ. Amen.

I agree, it was extremely positive reformation of Judaism to do away with the rites of animal sacrifice. However, it remains as a perpetual shadow, a constant reminder in the slaughter of the Lamb of God on the cross, the ultimate human sacrifice…

Same basic idea..

Violence…

 

[James_Lai]

Then why the shock and horror at animal sacrifice in the bible?

What is tru shocking is the valuing of animals over peoples or there obedience to God.

It’s barbaric. I understand in the historic, cultural and theological context. I have enormous difficulty to accept or condone this cruel practice and any beliefs that offshoot from it.

 

[James_Lai]

My first thought is, since animals were killed for food as a standard practice, who would find it objectionable to sacrifice an animal for the purpose of atonement? The wages of sin is death, death is a requirement for the atonement to right our relationship with God. As you said you understand the theology of the sacrifice of Jesus, so I will not expound on it unless there are questions.

Yes and no: for food, yes. But no matter how inhumane I consider it to consume other breathing thinking and feeling animals, or lesser brothers, at least there’s a sort of justification. You do it to survive. Weather it’s worth it or not is a matter of opinion and discussion.

As for religious killing to do away with your sin, no. I don’t find any justification… Why not find another way to appease the wrathful God without destroying an innocent life?

Or if a sacrificer equipped with a sword were to meet a wild lion or bear in one-on-one combat where the animal does have more or less equal grounds and stands a chance of survival, then I could very reluctantly say “it’s half way fair”.

But with a warped power dynamics of domesticated animals trusting the intelligent and armed humans, tied down with zero chance to escape or fight off their demise…. It’s anything but fair to me…

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Maybe if you normalize animal murder

Killing an animal is NOT murder according to scripture...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I agree, it was extremely positive reformation of Judaism to do away with the rites of animal sacrifice. However, it remains as a perpetual shadow, a constant reminder in the slaughter of the Lamb of God on the cross, tye ultimate human sacrifice…

Same basic idea..

Violence…

Reformation? The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. You do know some Jews sacrifice a chicken on Yom Kippur?

 

[James_Lai]

Killing an animal is NOT murder according to scripture...

Shalom, Jesus the Path, ma shlomech?

I absolutely understand and agree it’s how it is in Scripture. I personally disagree with such view though.

 

[James_Lai]

Reformation? The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. You do know some Jews sacrifice a chicken on Yom Kippur?

Ken, ani yoder. I was talking about Christianity or the new covenant of Updated Judaism by Yeshua haMashiach and Shaul/Pavlos that replaced the animal sacrifices with the ultimate and final sacrifice of Yeshua me Natzeret…

 

[Martinius]

Maybe if you normalize animal murder and become desensitized to such violence, it’s only a minor step on to exterminating your own kind

Yup, and we see it throughout history. We rationalize and excuse it in several ways, such as dehumanizing other people, finding fault or differences in them that call for their execution, etc. We look for reasons to hate people, and since WE hate them it is somehow okay to kill them, or place them behind walls or barbed wire, or treat them in other inhumane ways.

I have known children who weren't aware of the connection between cuddly farm animals and the food on their plate, and were disgusted when they found out. Some stopped eating meat. In response to another post, hunting and eating other life forms is part of nature, and it helps retain an ecological balance. Unless we over hunt or over fish. Killing animals for sport or for quasi-religious rituals is different.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Shalom, Jesus the Path, ma shlomech?

Ani beseder! Ve ata? Naim lehakir otach! BTW, since I am male, it would be "ma schlomcha"
Shalom!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Ken, ani yoder. I was talking about Christianity or the new covenant of Updated Judaism by Yeshua haMashiach and Shaul/Pavlos that replaced the animal sacrifices with the ultimate and final sacrifice of Yeshua me Natzeret…

Ken, Brit Hadashah...there were still sacrifices in the Temple until 70 AD. Shaul even made sacrifices in Acts. Also, if a new temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume.

 

[James_Lai]

Ani beseder! Ve ata? Naim lehakir otach! BTW, since I am male, it would be "ma schlomcha"
Shalom!

Ani beseder gamur, toda. Shlomcha - I knew, been a while using Hebrew, forgetting

 

[James_Lai]

Ken, Brit Hadashah...there were still sacrifices in the Temple until 70 AD. Shaul even made sacrifices in Acts. Also, if a new temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume.

I agree, original Christians clearly continued with keeping the law. It seems they considered themselves nothing but Jews following Jewish faith with a new understanding that Jesus is the Messiah. It’s later when the gentiles/ethni/goyim started joining the movement, the requirement of following the Mitzvot was mostly dropped for them

 

[coffee4u]

Hello.
I’m reading and reading the gospels, and always thinking about everything. So because it’s Christmas season or as it’s now customary to say Holiday Season to be politically correct, I read the gospels with emphases on Nativity.

In Luke 2:24, forty days following the first ever Christmas, Joseph and Mary bring newborn Jesus to the Jerusalem temple and offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons as per Leviticus 12:1-4 as a burnt and a sin offering to cleanse Mary from ceremonial uncleanliness after childbirth. If it were a girl, they’d have to wait for 80 days before performing this ritual…

I’ve studied the OT, and it’s clear what Joseph and Mary did there, following the Torah of Moses.

I’m a vegan and a passionate animal rights advocate. I often volunteer in a Humane Society. I’ve adopted several animals, one of them to save from euthanasia due to health and behavioural issues. I also love biology and studied ornithology as a hobby, especially how migrating birds navigate their annual flyways.

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice, but it hurts me to the core to read about two beautiful and gentle birds that were mercilessly slaughtered and one was burnt, and the blood of the other was smeared on Mary’s ear, thumb and toe. The senseless violence and disrespect towards the living creatures is simply shocking to me… So heartlessly cruel.

I have witnessed sheep sacrifice during Eid-al-Adha / Qurban Aid / Udhiya in Muslim countries… Not a pleasant sight at all, I feel sick to my stomach just thinking and writing about it right now….

I think about it a lot a lot. It makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

How do you justify the whole idea of animal sacrifice? Does it seem repulsive to you or are you okay with it?

We are not under animal sacrifice, because Jesus willingly became the sacrifice.
When contemplating the birds turn your focus to what Jesus went through. Jesus died not only so we could be saved but so no more animals would need to die. Jesus was whipped, spat on, nailed to a cross. He went through so much more than any of the animals slaughtered ever did.

Sin is a much more serious and repugnant a thing than animals sacrifice. We don't see that, but when you look upon animal sacrifice and get that feeling, imagine God feeling that but 1000 times worse as he looks at sin.

Sin was so repugnant that he came willingly down to earth in human form ready to be the sacrifice. Would you be willing to be nailed to a cross to stop animal sacrifice?

Animal sacrifice was repugnant, but that was the point. Humanity could not and cannot see the horror of sin. Animal sacrifice was to drive home to humanity just how repugnant it is.

 

[Clare73]

Hello.
I’m reading and reading the gospels, and always thinking about everything. So because it’s Christmas season or as it’s now customary to say Holiday Season to be politically correct, I read the gospels with emphases on Nativity.

In Luke 2:24, forty days following the first ever Christmas, Joseph and Mary bring newborn Jesus to the Jerusalem temple and offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons as per Leviticus 12:1-4 as a burnt and a sin offering to cleanse Mary from ceremonial uncleanliness after childbirth. If it were a girl, they’d have to wait for 80 days before performing this ritual…

I’ve studied the OT, and it’s clear what Joseph and Mary did there, following the Torah of Moses.

I’m a vegan and a passionate animal rights advocate. I often volunteer in a Humane Society. I’ve adopted several animals, one of them to save from euthanasia due to health and behavioural issues. I also love biology and studied ornithology as a hobby, especially how migrating birds navigate their annual flyways.

I understand very well the deep theological implications of animal sacrifice, but it hurts me to the core to read about two beautiful and gentle birds that were mercilessly slaughtered and one was burnt, and the blood of the other was smeared on Mary’s ear, thumb and toe. The senseless violence and disrespect towards the living creatures is simply shocking to me… So heartlessly cruel.

I have witnessed sheep sacrifice during Eid-al-Adha / Qurban Aid / Udhiya in Muslim countries… Not a pleasant sight at all, I feel sick to my stomach just thinking and writing about it right now….

I think about it a lot a lot. It makes absolutely no sense to me: it’s so weird that an almighty God would require and be satisfied by blood-shedding and burning of innocent animals as atonement for human sins. Pleasant aroma for Jehova’s nostrils… Again, I do understand very well the underlying theology that intertwines with the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT.

How do you justify the whole idea of animal sacrifice? Does it seem repulsive to you or are you okay with it?

I suspect your experience is part of the lesson.

Are you personifying animals?

I do.

Would you have a problem with a murdering butcher of children being killed in punishment?