Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

[Bible Highlighter]

The Two Aspects of Salvation:
(Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ​

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).​

​

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

​

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While technically there are four aspects of salvation (Provisional Atonement, God’s grace, Sanctification, and Glorification - See here) there are only two aspects of salvation we as believers need to be primarily concerned with in this life.

For the Bible teaches:

1st aspect of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9​

8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”​

2nd aspect of salvation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14​

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,…”​

This is not Calvinism by any means. Man has free will to either accept or reject God, but this happens when God illuminates the truth to a person at the right time or times in their life (Under the drawing of Christ and the conviction of the Spirit). For even Lydia’s heart was opened to understand Paul’s message. In other words, a person cannot believe without the working of God in their life to make that happen. But a person will know of the truth at the right time God chooses them to know the truth. It is up to the individual if they accept or reject the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

But there is only two steps we need to be concerned with (According to the Bible).
Grace and Sanctification (Which are by faith).

Side Note:

We are washed of our sins when we are first saved by God’s grace.
But we must be washed a second time.

Leviticus 13:58
”And the garment, either warp, or woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.”

Revelation 7:14
”And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is also called “Initial and Final Salvation.” However, even men like John Piper who claim to believe in “Initial and Final Salvation” do not believe in proper holy living as the Bible teaches because they have a false view of the penalty of sin.

For example: John Piper (A Calvinist) falsely teaches you can sin and still be saved.

Side Note:

I do not agree with Adam (at Abide in the Word YouTube Channel) in regards to his view on not stressing we are saved by two aspects of salvation. By watching some of his videos, he gives me the impression that he denies the the 1st aspect of salvation (Which is being saved by God’s grace without works). Whether Adam actually believes this is the case is another matter. I do hope he believes you can be saved initially by God's grace through faith without works. I believe the Bible teaches two aspects of salvation.

#1. We are saved initially by God’s grace without works through faith.
#2. We are saved in the Sanctification of the Spirit (over the course of our whole life).

However, Adam does a good job at showing how many Christians today believe in a sin and still be saved type belief (Which is not what the BIble teaches). I will post a video on this in my next post.

Side Note 2 (Update):

In my last most recent encounter with Adam:

Well, I am greatly concerned for Adam at "Abide in the Word" (YouTube Channel). While I love him in Jesus Christ, he has thrown around baseless insults at me by way of chat that are not true without really knowing me and what I actually believe. So while I found his videos helpful at times in the past, I have chosen to not watch his channel anymore. I believe he is not being loving to all and giving his ear to listen to what people actually say they believe in every case (Because of my personal experience with him). He just threw hurtful baseless insults at me by email without any proof to back them up). I do pray he changes to become more loving towards the brethren who do believe in Conditional Salvation like he does. Please pray for him to be more loving and understanding, and not to assume bad things about a person without any facts to back it up. For I am desiring nothing but good things for Adam in Christ Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even a Christian who I know well who is against Hyper Grace admitted to another believer I know that if a Christian (who generally lived a holy life) looked upon a woman in lust and then a bus hit him immediately and he died, that he would be saved (without even confessing of such a sin). I have not talked to him in a long while. Maybe he changed his position.

In either case, Jesus condemned this sin clearly in Matthew 5:28-30. It does not sound like this sin is okay to do unless a person confesses and forsakes this sin (See: Proverbs 28:13). So I see it as Christians holding to varying degrees of justifying sin. Some justify many sins (like the Hyper Grace crowd) and others justify sin on a smaller level.

But basically many Christians I have talked with over the years hold to the belief held by Hitler in this video (that is approx. 4 minutes):

In other words, at least on some level they they think sin will not cause them to die. Yet, this same lie was pushed in the Garden of Eden by the serpent (the devil) with Eve.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believers must confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (salvation) (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7).
In other words, if a believer does not confess and forsake sin, they will not enter God’s Kingdom and they will be condemned to the Lake of Fire. A believer can be saved at one point in time and then later lose their salvation. Christians need to endure to the end in glorifying God’s grace and in being faithful to the LORD. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

 

[bling]

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.



The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).

 

[Soyeong]

The Two Aspects of Salvation:
(Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and God's law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the Gospel message. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God gracious teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of saving us from not obeying it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead.

The fact that our salvation is based on grace does not mean that it does not involve our obedience to God's law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of having first done works, doing good works through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not doing good works.

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ​

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).​

​

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

​

(Continued in next post):

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading u to obey God's law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so obedience to it is the way to believe the truth. By doing good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about the truth of God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and which is also the way to believe in the truth of God's goodness, or in other words, it is the way to believe in God's name.

The 613 Mosaic Law all teach us how to testify about aspects of the nature of the God of Israel, so to not under them is to not be a follower of the God of Israel. If someone claims that they are not under the ceremonial law without demonstrating that they have in mind an identical list of laws as those of the authors of the Bible, then they are guaranteed to be misinterpreting the Bible, however, the Bible never lists which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a category of law, and the same is true of the moral law.

The existence of the category of moral law implies that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that are not in that category, however, you have give no objective standard for how you've determined that certain laws are not moral laws, there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Rather, morality is in regard to what ought to be done and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for you to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws, which is also for you to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed HIs people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying His law, so you should be more careful with what you speak against. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should think that we should also obey all of the laws that hang on them instead of concocting justifications for not following them. The way to worship God is not by you arguing against following the instructions of the God of Israel for how to worship Him. Arguing against obeying God's commands is not the way to show yourself approved unto God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and God's law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the Gospel message. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God gracious teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of saving us from not obeying it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

The Law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). It does not mean the church is under the 613 Laws of Moses. We are under the many commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. For example: The Saturday Sabbath command is no longer applicable. This is obvious if one reads Colossians 2, and Romans 14. Acts 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. Hebrews 8 goes into how the old system of Law has ended. The reason why Paul struggled to not sin as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 was because he was under the Old Law. If one seeks to be justified by the Law, they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is in reference to the Laws of Moses and not all forms of Law like the commands from Jesus and His followers.

In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead.

Nobody today can keep the 613 Laws anymore because we are not obligated to involve ourselves with the keeping of the laws on animal sacrifices or in stoning others if they disobey the Law, etcetera. I would encourage you to read Grace Community International articles on the Law. While I do not agree with their view of sin and salvation, they do teach well that we are not under the Old Covenant system by the many Laws of Moses anymore.

The Old Covenant and the Law of Moses - GCI Archive

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

archive.gci.org

The fact that our salvation is based on grace does not mean that it does not involve our obedience to God's law.

Yes, but I would see this as New Covenant Laws and not Old Covenant ones. We are not under the Law of Moses (See Romans 6). But we are under the Laws of Christ.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of having first done works, doing good works through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not doing good works

This sounds like you agree with me that there are two aspects of salvation as I have described it here.

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading u to obey God's law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so obedience to it is the way to believe the truth. By doing good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about the truth of God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and which is also the way to believe in the truth of God's goodness, or in other words, it is the way to believe in God's name.

The 613 Mosaic Law all teach us how to testify about aspects of the nature of the God of Israel, so to not under them is to not be a follower of the God of Israel. If someone claims that they are not under the ceremonial law without demonstrating that they have in mind an identical list of laws as those of the authors of the Bible, then they are guaranteed to be misinterpreting the Bible, however, the Bible never lists which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a category of law, and the same is true of the moral law.

God gave us brains to analyze things. We group things into categories not based on mindless methods or emotions, but we do so because it makes sense logically. God is a God of order and not confusion. We can see the difference between a moral law and a ceremonial law based on how they work or function. A moral law would best described in Romans 2. Romans 2:14 says, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” You cannot keep the Saturday Sabbath by nature or instinct. Your instinct may be able to take a day of rest, but your body would not know which day exactly that would be common to all men. The Saturday Sabbath command is a ceremony at the heart because it is not something that is primarily a moral law like say, “Thou shalt not kill.” Even many unbelievers know it is wrong to kill or take life (i.e., murder). While the obeying the Sabbath under the Old Covenant may have had some moral application to it, it was not exclusively moral like, “love your neighbor” because God is specifically giving the ceremonial instructions of observance for that day. One is partaking in a ritual or ceremony of some kind if they are partaking in the Sabbath. This is just basic logic of how these different commands work. If one cannot see such a thing it is because they have chosen not to see it.

The existence of the category of moral law implies that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that are not in that category, however, you have give no objective standard for how you've determined that certain laws are not moral laws, there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Rather, morality is in regard to what ought to be done and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for you to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws, which is also for you to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

The word “Bible” is not in the Bible but that does not stop those who complain about extra biblical words like “Trinity” and other words that help clarify and explain things in the Bible. There is nothing unbiblical about using other words to convey the a word as used in the Bible (As long as it aligns with what the Bible says). Homonyms do exist in the Bible. Jesus accepted an extended parable by the Canaanite woman and so we can use other truths to express what God’s Word says. Granted, we cannot add words to the Scriptures themselves like creating another holy book or insert our own holy words into the text and claim it is inspired by God. That’s different. But to expound upon what the text says is what I am referring to here.

In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed HIs people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying His law, so you should be more careful with what you speak against.

This would apply while the 613 Laws as a package deal was in effect. The temple veil was torn top to bottom and so the laws on animal sacrifices from the Law of Moses is no longer valid unless you are seeking to rebuild a temple or something to sacrifice animals again.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should think that we should also obey all of the laws that hang on them instead of concocting justifications for not following them. The way to worship God is not by you arguing against following the instructions of the God of Israel for how to worship Him. Arguing against obeying God's commands is not the way to show yourself approved unto God.

Right, this was said before the cross when the Old Covenant was still in effect. While we are to still keep the two greatest commandments from Jesus because they are expressed even after the cross, we are not under the Laws of Moses. It would be impossible to obey both sets of laws because they conflict with one another. I mean, I get it. When I started out in the faith, I thought we had to keep both sets of Laws (The Old Covenant laws, and the New Covenant laws). But this is simply not possible if one examines this issue with the Bible along with asking God the Father to give a person the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus to open their eyes to understand these things.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

First, you are using your own words here. So your statement that you are using other Scripture to address these arguments is not aligning with what you said. Second, your explanation on Galatians 6:8-9 is not in line with what that passage actually says. Paul says you are to sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life in verse 8. Then in verse 9, he defines what this sowing to the Spirit actually is by saying it is “well doing,” which is good works. In verse 9, we are encouraged to not faint (pass out) in doing good works (sowing to the Spirit), for we will reap, if we faint not. In other words, you would have to actually address what this passage says word for word. But you’re not doing that. You have come up with some kind of outside explanation that does not fit what that passage actually says. There is also Romans 8:13, and 1 Timothy 5:8 that you would have to explain away, as well.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

Wow. So let me get this straight. Are you saying that the prodigal son should have simply taken the punishment of his sins instead of going to God’s grace in seeking forgiveness with his father? I sure hope that is not what you are saying. God’s grace gives us the ability to do the work (See: 1 Corinthians 15:10). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

In either case, the Parable of the Prodigal Son proves that one can go from a saved state, then to a lost state, and then back again to being saved. This truth is also expressed in James 5:19-20, but it is denied by the majority in popular Christianity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Hebrews 9:15 does talk about the promise of inheritance of eternal life.

This is the receiving of the purchased possession of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:14) (Hebrews 9:15).

This is distinctly different than the promise of inheritance (Ephesians 1:11) (Hebrews 9:15) based on our meeting the terms of the contract of faith on our end.

This is the promise of inheritance:

Romans 8:16-17 says,
16 ”The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

Then there is the receiving of the promise by being called home to be with the Lord in His Kingdom.
We cannot claim birthright as our inheritance if we are not living out the faith.
Meaning, a believer cannot claim to their birthright if they are also justifying sin.
Paul makes it clear that that various types of sins will cause us not to inherit the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21.

Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

Sin Will eventually forfeit a person’s gift. They may even be in the Kingdom now sitting in Heavenly places, but at the Judgment, they will be weeded out. The goats and the sheep will be separated from one another and the goats will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire). So any believer who thinks they can and still be saved is not going to make into God’s Kingdom in the end.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

Birthright will not save us if we later justify sin. Like the prodigal son who was said by his father that he was “dead,” and he is “alive AGAIN” after he came home seeking forgiveness with his father.

We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

Which can be as a result of sin or unfaithfulness to God, or later teaching false doctrines that are heretical.

Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now),

Wrong. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes it clear that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit.
Galatians 6:8-9 says that we sow to the Spirit to reap life everlasting and this life sowing to the Spirit is “well doing” (good works).
Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live (live spiritually). Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. Obviously those who do not crucify the affections and lusts are not in the possession of Christ. So this is why we need to employ 2 Corinthians 7:1. Lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. But most in Christianity today not really fear God. They believe it is a some kind of reverence and not fear. The changed the meaning of the words in the Bible to fit their own narrative. But there will be a Judgment that they cannot escape if they do not repent in this life on such things.

but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).

How would one give away their birthright? I believe one does so if they justify sin and they do not confess and forsake their sins.
If they believed that all future sin is paid for even since they were born again, I believe they are holding to a false theology and another Jesus. The Bible does not teach future sin is forgiven you. One needs to confess and forsake sin to maintain salvation. If one does not overcome sin in this life, they are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. This is the narrow way that Jesus speaks of that most Christians are clueless about. I believe the Judgment will be like a deer who is captured by the headlights by a car. It will be utter surprise and shock to them of what is happening when the Bible has said all long what they have rejected.

 

[bling]

First, you are using your own words here. So your statement that you are using other Scripture to address these arguments is not aligning with what you said. Second, your explanation on Galatians 6:8-9 is in line with what that passage actually says. Paul says you are to sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life in verse 8. Then in verse 9, he defines what this sowing to the Spirit actually is by saying it is “well doing,” which is good works. In verse 9, we are encouraged to not faint (pass out) in doing good works (sowing to the Spirit), for we will reap, if we faint not. In other words, you would have to actually address what this passage says word for word. But you’re not doing that. You have come up with some kind of outside explanation that does not fit what that passage actually says. There is also Romans 8:13, and 1 Timothy 5:8 that you would have to explain away, as well.

I use Gal. 6:8 to support the conclusion you can give up your eternal life in heaven after being promised that birthright.

Wow. So let me get this straight. Are you saying that the prodigal son should have simply taken the punishment of his sins instead of going to God’s grace in seeking forgiveness with his father? I sure hope that is not what you are saying. God’s grace gives us the ability to do the work (See: 1 Corinthians 15:10). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

In either case, the Parable of the Prodigal Son proves that one can go from a saved state, then to a lost state, and then back again to being saved. This truth is also expressed in James 5:19-20, but it is denied by the majority in popular Christianity.

I am not saying the young son should take his fully deserved punishment, but that is a real option for him even in the pigsty. People will do almost anything to avoid humbly accepting pure charity.

Hebrews 9:15 does talk about the promise of inheritance of eternal life.

This is the receiving of the purchased possession of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:14) (Hebrews 9:15).

This is distinctly different than the promise of inheritance (Ephesians 1:11) (Hebrews 9:15) based on our meeting the terms of the contract of faith on our end.

This is the promise of inheritance:

Romans 8:16-17 says,
16 ”The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

Then there is the receiving of the promise by being called home to be with the Lord in His Kingdom.
We cannot claim birthright as our inheritance if we are not living out the faith.
Meaning, a believer cannot claim to their birthright if they are also justifying sin.
Paul makes it clear that that various types of sins will cause us not to inherit the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21.


Sin Will eventually forfeit a person’s gift. They may even be in the Kingdom now sitting in Heavenly places, but at the Judgment, they will be weeded out. The goats and the sheep will be separated from one another and the goats will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire). So any believer who thinks they can and still be saved is not going to make into God’s Kingdom in the end.




Birthright will not save us if we later justify sin. Like the prodigal son who was said by his father that he was “dead,” and he is “alive AGAIN” after he came home seeking forgiveness with his father.



Which can be as a result of sin or unfaithfulness to God, or later teaching false doctrines that are heretical.



Wrong. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes it clear that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit.
Galatians 6:8-9 says that we sow to the Spirit to reap life everlasting and this life sowing to the Spirit is “well doing” (good works).
Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live (live spiritually). Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. Obviously those who do not crucify the affections and lusts are not in the possession of Christ. So this is why we need to employ 2 Corinthians 7:1. Lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. But most in Christianity today not really fear God. They believe it is a some kind of reverence and not fear. The changed the meaning of the words in the Bible to fit their own narrative. But there will be a Judgment that they cannot escape if they do not repent in this life on such things.

How is the Spirit sanctifying us, something we do to get something?

As we move through life, we are automatically sowing good or bad seed. God gives the increase of the good, while the bad encourages us to get worse.

Christians including I, sin lots of times, even though I understand they including me, do not have to sin again. You are either growing (and this can be rapidly) or you are withering (which can be slowly). What God is doing and allowing heavily is helping us to grow, so we do not wither, because we can wither to the point Godly type Love has no value for us and we will just give it away (like Esau did his inheritance). We are not bouncing back and forth between being lost and saved every time we sin, for our Loving Father easily forgive us, but the Loving discipline is to hurt. We need to not reach the point we do not want God’s Love (which includes forgiveness and discipline).

How would one give away their birthright? I believe one does so if they justify sin and they do not confess and forsake their sins.
If they believed that all future sin is paid for even since they were born again, I believe they are holding to a false theology and another Jesus. The Bible does not teach future sin is forgiven you. One needs to confess and forsake sin to maintain salvation. If one does not overcome sin in this life, they are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. This is the narrow way that Jesus speaks of that most Christians are clueless about. I believe the Judgment will be like a deer who is captured by the headlights by a car. It will be utter surprise and shock to them of what is happening when the Bible has said all long what they have rejected.

OK

 

[Soyeong]

The Law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). It does not mean the church is under the 613 Laws of Moses. We are under the many commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. For example: The Saturday Sabbath command is no longer applicable. This is obvious if one reads Colossians 2, and Romans 14. Acts 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. Hebrews 8 goes into how the old system of Law has ended. The reason why Paul struggled to not sin as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 was because he was under the Old Law. If one seeks to be justified by the Law, they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is in reference to the Laws of Moses and not all forms of Law like the commands from Jesus and His followers.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so being under his commands means that we are under the Law of Moses, including being required to keep the Sabbath holy.

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy feasts in obedience to God's commands in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting human teaching and precept, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and prevent them from obeying God, so you trying to use this chapter to justify your refusal to obey what God has commanded is ironic.

The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14 precisely because it had nothing to do with the topic Paul was discussing in that chapter in regard how to handle disputable matter of opinion in which God has given no command. It is important not to making the mistake of inserting the commands of God into something that was only said in regard to following the opinions of man.

In regard to Acts 13:39, we do not earn our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given as a means of doing that even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligated to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as through the fact that we do not earn our salvation by obeying God means that we are not obligated to obey God. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so there is a reason why our justification requires us to obey it other than in order to earn it as a wage.

In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law.

Nobody today can keep the 613 Laws anymore because we are not obligated to involve ourselves with the keeping of the laws on animal sacrifices or in stoning others if they disobey the Law, etcetera. I would encourage you to read Grace Community International articles on the Law. While I do not agree with their view of sin and salvation, they do teach well that we are not under the Old Covenant system by the many Laws of Moses anymore.

The Old Covenant and the Law of Moses - GCI Archive

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

archive.gci.org

When God has commanded something and Grace Community International speak against obeying what God has commanded, then it should not be difficult to figure out who has the higher authority and which one should we follow.

Yes, but I would see this as New Covenant Laws and not Old Covenant ones. We are not under the Law of Moses (See Romans 6). But we are under the Laws of Christ.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our mind and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, it involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 6, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of Moses, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.

God gave us brains to analyze things. We group things into categories not based on mindless methods or emotions, but we do so because it makes sense logically. God is a God of order and not confusion. We can see the difference between a moral law and a ceremonial law based on how they work or function. A moral law would best described in Romans 2. Romans 2:14 says, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” You cannot keep the Saturday Sabbath by nature or instinct. Your instinct may be able to take a day of rest, but your body would not know which day exactly that would be common to all men. The Saturday Sabbath command is a ceremony at the heart because it is not something that is primarily a moral law like say, “Thou shalt not kill.” Even many unbelievers know it is wrong to kill or take life (i.e., murder). While the obeying the Sabbath under the Old Covenant may have had some moral application to it, it was not exclusively moral like, “love your neighbor” because God is specifically giving the ceremonial instructions of observance for that day. One is partaking in a ritual or ceremony of some kind if they are partaking in the Sabbath. This is just basic logic of how these different commands work. If one cannot see such a thing it is because they have chosen not to see it.

We have the freedom to categorize God's laws however we want, for instance, I could categorize them based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, however, just because I can do that does not mean that the authors of the Bible categorized them in the same way, so the problem comes with interpreting them as referring to a category that I created, such as by saying that hand laws were done away with on the cross without demonstrating that they categorized God's laws in the same way. Moreover, even if the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, I would still need to demonstrate that they agree with me about which laws best fit in which category, such they might think that the law against theft should be a foot law because committing theft generally involves moving around with our feet.

In the same way, if a group of people were to create list which of the Mosaic laws are moral, civil, or ceremonial, then they would create a wide variety of lists that are not derived from what is directly stated in the Bible and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list that they just created. People debate over whether the Sabbath is a moral or ceremonial law, but that is just as meaningless as debating whether the law against theft is a hand or foot law, because it is just debating opinions that are not based on what is directly stated in the Bible. For example, Romans 2:14 does not state that it excludes any of the Mosaic Law, but rather that's just something that you've inserted into it. You've given no basis for thinking that it can be moral to disobey the laws that you've personally decided are ceremonial laws.

The word “Bible” is not in the Bible but that does not stop those who complain about extra biblical words like “Trinity” and other words that help clarify and explain things in the Bible. There is nothing unbiblical about using other words to convey the a word as used in the Bible (As long as it aligns with what the Bible says). Homonyms do exist in the Bible. Jesus accepted an extended parable by the Canaanite woman and so we can use other truths to express what God’s Word says. Granted, we cannot add words to the Scriptures themselves like creating another holy book or insert our own holy words into the text and claim it is inspired by God. That’s different. But to expound upon what the text says is what I am referring to here.

The important thing is not whether a specific word of phrase is used by the Bible, but whether it refers to a concept that is taught by the Bible, so show me where the Bible refer to the concept of moral law as a subset of laws that are immoral to disobey as opposed to other laws that are moral to disobey. There is not a single example where disobedience to God is considered by the Bible to be moral. Give me a Scriptural basis for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God.

This would apply while the 613 Laws as a package deal was in effect. The temple veil was torn top to bottom and so the laws on animal sacrifices from the Law of Moses is no longer valid unless you are seeking to rebuild a temple or something to sacrifice animals again.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Bible doesn't state that the veil being torn means that the laws on animal sacrifices from the Mosaic Law are no longer valid, that's just something that you've arbitrarily made up. Deuteronomy 13:4-5 applies to people to claim that the package deal is no longer in effect.

Right, this was said before the cross when the Old Covenant was still in effect. While we are to still keep the two greatest commandments from Jesus because they are expressed even after the cross, we are not under the Laws of Moses. It would be impossible to obey both sets of laws because they conflict with one another. I mean, I get it. When I started out in the faith, I thought we had to keep both sets of Laws (The Old Covenant laws, and the New Covenant laws). But this is simply not possible if one examines this issue with the Bible along with asking God the Father to give a person the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus to open their eyes to understand these things.

The Mosaic Covenant being in effect does not make what was said any less true. In John 12:46-50, we do not have any room to disregard anything that Jesus taught during his ministry and Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). If the greatest two commandments are still in effect, then so are all of the commandments that hang on them. There is nothing commanded in the New Covenant that is contrary to obeying the Mosaic Law. It should not make sense to you to interpret parts of God's word as being contrary to other parts of God's word.

 

[fhansen]

The Two Aspects of Salvation:
(Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ​

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).​

​

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

​

(Continued in next post):

This was good. I'd only say that the gospel is more than "believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation". The gospel is all about being reconciled with God as we come to know and believe in Him, with an essential faith (not to mention hope and love) that Adam effectively lacked. Man is lost, dead, unjust without God IOW.
So,
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

By everything that Jesus said and did-by everything that Jesus is-He definitively reveals the true face of the true God. He gives us a God truly worth knowing- and so believing in (in His existence, goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, etc), hoping in, and loving. So He can tell us,
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I use Gal. 6:8 to support the conclusion you can give up your eternal life in heaven after being promised that birthright.

I am not saying the young son should take his fully deserved punishment, but that is a real option for him even in the pigsty. People will do almost anything to avoid humbly accepting pure charity.

How is the Spirit sanctifying us, something we do to get something?

As we move through life, we are automatically sowing good or bad seed. God gives the increase of the good, while the bad encourages us to get worse.

Christians including I, sin lots of times, even though I understand they including me, do not have to sin again. You are either growing (and this can be rapidly) or you are withering (which can be slowly). What God is doing and allowing heavily is helping us to grow, so we do not wither, because we can wither to the point Godly type Love has no value for us and we will just give it away (like Esau did his inheritance). We are not bouncing back and forth between being lost and saved every time we sin, for our Loving Father easily forgive us, but the Loving discipline is to hurt. We need to not reach the point we do not want God’s Love (which includes forgiveness and discipline).



OK

1 John 1:9 is dealing with salvation. It says if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Do you erroneously believe (like the vast majority of Christianity) this is merely a break in fellowship while your future sin is forgiven you? If so, where in the context does it support such an interpretation? There are others who say 1 John 1:9 is dealing with “Initial Salvation.” But again, I do not see any context supporting this claim, either. Also, where else in the Bible does it talk about being out of fellowship with Jesus and still being saved?

Actually, there are several places in Scripture that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and still be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are the branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I use Gal. 6:8 to support the conclusion you can give up your eternal life in heaven after being promised that birthright.

I am not saying the young son should take his fully deserved punishment, but that is a real option for him even in the pigsty. People will do almost anything to avoid humbly accepting pure charity.

How is the Spirit sanctifying us, something we do to get something?

As we move through life, we are automatically sowing good or bad seed. God gives the increase of the good, while the bad encourages us to get worse.

Christians including I, sin lots of times, even though I understand they including me, do not have to sin again. You are either growing (and this can be rapidly) or you are withering (which can be slowly). What God is doing and allowing heavily is helping us to grow, so we do not wither, because we can wither to the point Godly type Love has no value for us and we will just give it away (like Esau did his inheritance). We are not bouncing back and forth between being lost and saved every time we sin, for our Loving Father easily forgive us, but the Loving discipline is to hurt. We need to not reach the point we do not want God’s Love (which includes forgiveness and discipline).



OK

If you read the Parable of the Prodigal Son again in Luke 15, it is pretty obvious that when the son came back home seeking forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was “DEAD” and he is “ALIVE AGAIN” is a reference to his spiritual state. Obviously the prodigal son did not physically die and became alive again. So this is speaking in spiritual terms. I heard the escape excuse about how it is talking about Israel or some kind of nonsense. But where in the world does the Bible clearly explain that crazy idea? Usually this is mentioned quickly, and then they run off to never explain it. In other words, you cannot give me a clear explanation that makes any kind of sense spiritually with the Parable of the Prodigal Son. One of the main points of the parable is teaching that you can lose salvation by your sin. James 5:19-20 also teaches the same truth. Again, you would actually have to do a word for word commentary both on the this point in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and on James 5:19-20. But right now, you really are not offering one because you cannot do so. It’s because you know you cannot do so without it sounding silly or forced.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so being under his commands means that we are under the Law of Moses, including being required to keep the Sabbath holy.

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy feasts in obedience to God's commands in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting human teaching and precept, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and prevent them from obeying God, so you trying to use this chapter to justify your refusal to obey what God has commanded is ironic.

The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14 precisely because it had nothing to do with the topic Paul was discussing in that chapter in regard how to handle disputable matter of opinion in which God has given no command. It is important not to making the mistake of inserting the commands of God into something that was only said in regard to following the opinions of man.

In regard to Acts 13:39, we do not earn our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given as a means of doing that even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligated to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as through the fact that we do not earn our salvation by obeying God means that we are not obligated to obey God. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so there is a reason why our justification requires us to obey it other than in order to earn it as a wage.

In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law.


When God has commanded something and Grace Community International speak against obeying what God has commanded, then it should not be difficult to figure out who has the higher authority and which one should we follow.


In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our mind and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, it involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 6, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of Moses, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.


We have the freedom to categorize God's laws however we want, for instance, I could categorize them based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, however, just because I can do that does not mean that the authors of the Bible categorized them in the same way, so the problem comes with interpreting them as referring to a category that I created, such as by saying that hand laws were done away with on the cross without demonstrating that they categorized God's laws in the same way. Moreover, even if the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, I would still need to demonstrate that they agree with me about which laws best fit in which category, such they might think that the law against theft should be a foot law because committing theft generally involves moving around with our feet.

In the same way, if a group of people were to create list which of the Mosaic laws are moral, civil, or ceremonial, then they would create a wide variety of lists that are not derived from what is directly stated in the Bible and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list that they just created. People debate over whether the Sabbath is a moral or ceremonial law, but that is just as meaningless as debating whether the law against theft is a hand or foot law, because it is just debating opinions that are not based on what is directly stated in the Bible. For example, Romans 2:14 does not state that it excludes any of the Mosaic Law, but rather that's just something that you've inserted into it. You've given no basis for thinking that it can be moral to disobey the laws that you've personally decided are ceremonial laws.


The important thing is not whether a specific word of phrase is used by the Bible, but whether it refers to a concept that is taught by the Bible, so show me where the Bible refer to the concept of moral law as a subset of laws that are immoral to disobey as opposed to other laws that are moral to disobey. There is not a single example where disobedience to God is considered by the Bible to be moral. Give me a Scriptural basis for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God.


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Bible doesn't state that the veil being torn means that the laws on animal sacrifices from the Mosaic Law are no longer valid, that's just something that you've arbitrarily made up. Deuteronomy 13:4-5 applies to people to claim that the package deal is no longer in effect.


The Mosaic Covenant being in effect does not make what was said any less true. In John 12:46-50, we do not have any room to disregard anything that Jesus taught during his ministry and Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). If the greatest two commandments are still in effect, then so are all of the commandments that hang on them. There is nothing commanded in the New Covenant that is contrary to obeying the Mosaic Law. It should not make sense to you to interpret parts of God's word as being contrary to other parts of God's word.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as to sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so being under his commands means that we are under the Law of Moses, including being required to keep the Sabbath holy.

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy feasts in obedience to God's commands in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting human teaching and precept, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and prevent them from obeying God, so you trying to use this chapter to justify your refusal to obey what God has commanded is ironic.

The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14 precisely because it had nothing to do with the topic Paul was discussing in that chapter in regard how to handle disputable matter of opinion in which God has given no command. It is important not to making the mistake of inserting the commands of God into something that was only said in regard to following the opinions of man.

In regard to Acts 13:39, we do not earn our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given as a means of doing that even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligated to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as through the fact that we do not earn our salvation by obeying God means that we are not obligated to obey God. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so there is a reason why our justification requires us to obey it other than in order to earn it as a wage.

In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law.


When God has commanded something and Grace Community International speak against obeying what God has commanded, then it should not be difficult to figure out who has the higher authority and which one should we follow.


In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our mind and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, it involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 6, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of Moses, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.


We have the freedom to categorize God's laws however we want, for instance, I could categorize them based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, however, just because I can do that does not mean that the authors of the Bible categorized them in the same way, so the problem comes with interpreting them as referring to a category that I created, such as by saying that hand laws were done away with on the cross without demonstrating that they categorized God's laws in the same way. Moreover, even if the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, I would still need to demonstrate that they agree with me about which laws best fit in which category, such they might think that the law against theft should be a foot law because committing theft generally involves moving around with our feet.

In the same way, if a group of people were to create list which of the Mosaic laws are moral, civil, or ceremonial, then they would create a wide variety of lists that are not derived from what is directly stated in the Bible and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list that they just created. People debate over whether the Sabbath is a moral or ceremonial law, but that is just as meaningless as debating whether the law against theft is a hand or foot law, because it is just debating opinions that are not based on what is directly stated in the Bible. For example, Romans 2:14 does not state that it excludes any of the Mosaic Law, but rather that's just something that you've inserted into it. You've given no basis for thinking that it can be moral to disobey the laws that you've personally decided are ceremonial laws.


The important thing is not whether a specific word of phrase is used by the Bible, but whether it refers to a concept that is taught by the Bible, so show me where the Bible refer to the concept of moral law as a subset of laws that are immoral to disobey as opposed to other laws that are moral to disobey. There is not a single example where disobedience to God is considered by the Bible to be moral. Give me a Scriptural basis for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God.


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Bible doesn't state that the veil being torn means that the laws on animal sacrifices from the Mosaic Law are no longer valid, that's just something that you've arbitrarily made up. Deuteronomy 13:4-5 applies to people to claim that the package deal is no longer in effect.


The Mosaic Covenant being in effect does not make what was said any less true. In John 12:46-50, we do not have any room to disregard anything that Jesus taught during his ministry and Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). If the greatest two commandments are still in effect, then so are all of the commandments that hang on them. There is nothing commanded in the New Covenant that is contrary to obeying the Mosaic Law. It should not make sense to you to interpret parts of God's word as being contrary to other parts of God's word.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This was good. I'd only say that the gospel is more than "believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation". The gospel is all about being reconciled with God as we come to know and believe in Him, with an essential faith (not to mention hope and love) that Adam effectively lacked. Man is lost, dead, unjust without God IOW.
So,
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

By everything that Jesus said and did-by everything that Jesus is-He definitively reveals the true face of the true God. He gives us a God truly worth knowing- and so believing in (in His existence, goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, etc), hoping in, and loving. So He can tell us,
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Well, I prefer to play it safe with the gospel definition because of the warnings attached to teaching a false gospel. I believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. I go into explaining the different usages of the word “gospel” in my post here. But thank you for saying you liked my post. Note: The gospel does call us. It calls us to… “God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth” (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).

The two aspects of salvation is subtly referred to in the Bible.

Leviticus 13:28 says,

“…if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.”

Like the proper washing involving one who had leprosy, they were to be washed a second time. I believe this is symbolic of how Christians are to wash themselves two times in the New Testament to be cleansed of their leprosy of sin.

​

Surely we need the washing or forgiveness of sin to be saved.

Believers are to first be washed of their sins by God’s grace through faith without works in their Initial Salvation.

Being saved by God’s grace includes being washed of one’s sins by seeking forgiveness of one’s sins with the Lord.

Acts 22:16​

​

“…wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”​

​

Psalms 51:2​

​

“Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.”​

​

Being saved by God’s grace includes being washed by believing in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by being washed by the Spirit.​

​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

​

“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,​

but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”​

​

John 1:12​

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“… to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”​

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Titus 3:5​

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“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”​

Believers are to be washed a second time in the Sanctification Process to live a holy life by the Spirit over the course of their whole life.

Ephesians 5:25-27​

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“…even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”​

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2 Corinthians 7:1​

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“…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”​

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Psalms 119:9-11​

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9 “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.​

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.​

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”​

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1 John 1:7​

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“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”​

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2 Thessalonians 2:13-14​

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“…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”​

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1 Thessalonians 4:3-4​

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3 “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:​

4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;”​

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Galatians 6:8-9​

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8 “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.​

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”​

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Romans 8:13​

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“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”​

Many believers will not be able to see what I am showing here because they have a sin and still be saved mindset given to them by popular Christianity. However, there are two washings in regards to our salvation. One is God’s grace, and the other is Sanctification to live a holy life by the Spirit.

This is the narrow way that Jesus speaks about. It’s not all God’s grace alone, without upholding a standard of holiness, and neither is it all about living holy alone without God’s grace. Most turn God’s grace into a license for immorality on some level. Others totally ignore that we are initially saved by God’s grace without works (Which is the 1st aspect of salvation). Let the Lord get all the glory.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so for you to suggest that Jesus made changes to is to suggest that he sinned and therefore to deny that he is our Savior. Moreover, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so if Jesus had done as you suggest, then according to God we should consider him to be a false prophet. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and he did not hypocritically suggest that we should do as he said, but not as he did, but rather everything he spent his ministry teaching by word and by example was in regard to how to practice the Mosaic Law. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

When Jesus directly quoted from Scripture in Matthew 4, he proceeded it b y saying "it is written...", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about Scripture, he proceeded by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. He was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to the law, but rather he was fulfilling it by correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

"An eye for an eye" is still a good guideline for judges to help ensure fair sentencing that does not escalate out of proportion to the offense, however, it was a guideline that was only intended to be used by judges and was not intended to be used to justify taking vengeance into our own hands in personal situations. Rather, in those situations, we are instructed not to repay in kind (Proverbs 20:22, 24:29).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

Not hating our brother is in accordance with Leviticus 19:17, so again, Jesus was not teaching anything brand new.

The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

In Leviticus 19:12, it instructs to to swear falsely by God's name, so someone who was following the spirit of that law would understand that its intent is for us to not swear falsely while someone who was following the letter of that law would understand that we are free to swear falsely as long as we swear by something other than God's name, so again Jesus was fulfilling the law by correcting that misuse of it.

The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

Loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, Proverbs 25:21-22.

The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

The Bible requires for both the accused man and the woman to be brought before a judge in order to do a thorough investigation into the matter, which no one being put to death without at least two or three witnesses, and for the witnesses to throw the first stone, so if Jesus had stoned her, then he would have been sinning in violation of the law.

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Either Paul was only speaking against becoming circumcised for incorrect purposes or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 16:4 and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised sin order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose. The Paul did not have the authority to countermand God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what He has commanded, especially because he servant of God, not an enemy of God.

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

The Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's command in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and prevent them from obeying God's commands, so it is ironic when people try to use Colossians 2:16 to justify their refusal to obey God.

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His laws for how to testify about His righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require there to be a change of the law in regard to its administration.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so grace and truth came by Jesus Christ because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example.

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same, so he did not abolish even the least part of it while saying that he did is calling him a liar and disregarding his warning. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known through His law) to be obeyed as it should be", so Jesus fulfilled the law by spending his ministry teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example. The Bible does not speak about any of God's laws being nailed to the cross. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). The Bible never lists which are the ceremonial laws and never even refers to that as being a category of law. In Psalms 19:7, God's law is already perfect, so it can't become more perfect. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which you are sadly opposing.

Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather he was one with the Father, so you should be quicker to think that you must have misunderstood all of the verses that you've cited than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret them as teaching us to rebel against the Father.

 

[Soyeong]

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as to sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

The laws that the God of Israel has specifically chosen to give paint us a picture of His eternal character, so we can see that God is wise by seeing that He has commanded wise laws, that He is good by seeing that he has given good laws, and so forth, and so by obeying His laws we are testify about the eternal nature of who God is, such as by doing good works in obedience to them we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). Moreover, by doing good works we are expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we believing in God's good ness or are believing in Him. Furthermore, by having experience of doing good works we are knowing God through practicing His nature, or other words, we growing in a relationship with Him.

So covenants are laws of the God of Israel are not something that can be edited on whim to suit our liking, but rather they are core to His identity. For example, if God had commanded to commit adultery or to refrain from helping the poor, then that would have painted a very different picture of God's character and so someone who follows a different set of commands is following a god who has a different identify than that of the God of Israel. The only way that instructions for how to testify about the nature of the God of Israel can be ended is by first ending the God of Israel. Choosing which set of laws to follow is more like choosing which God to follow. The New Covenant is made with the same God with the same eternal nature and therefore the same eternal law for how to testify about His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

The Spirit is God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret the Bible as saying that serving in newness of the spirit is something other than or contrary to following what God has instructed. You should be quicker to think that you have completely misunderstood the Bible than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret it as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and if you think that it is teaching us to rebel against God, then you should obey God instead.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The laws that the God of Israel has specifically chosen to give paint us a picture of His eternal character, so we can see that God is wise by seeing that He has commanded wise laws, that He is good by seeing that he has given good laws, and so forth, and so by obeying His laws we are testify about the eternal nature of who God is, such as by doing good works in obedience to them we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). Moreover, by doing good works we are expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we believing in God's good ness or are believing in Him. Furthermore, by having experience of doing good works we are knowing God through practicing His nature, or other words, we growing in a relationship with Him.

So covenants are laws of the God of Israel are not something that can be edited on whim to suit our liking, but rather they are core to His identity. For example, if God had commanded to commit adultery or to refrain from helping the poor, then that would have painted a very different picture of God's character and so someone who follows a different set of commands is following a god who has a different identify than that of the God of Israel. The only way that instructions for how to testify about the nature of the God of Israel can be ended is by first ending the God of Israel. Choosing which set of laws to follow is more like choosing which God to follow. The New Covenant is made with the same God with the same eternal nature and therefore the same eternal law for how to testify about His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

The Spirit is God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret the Bible as saying that serving in newness of the spirit is something other than or contrary to following what God has instructed. You should be quicker to think that you have completely misunderstood the Bible than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret it as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and if you think that it is teaching us to rebel against God, then you should obey God instead.

God’s laws are important but you are looking in the wrong place to get them. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So thats something in the Bible you have to deal with, whether be today or before our Lord at the Judgment.