Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe today, but it eventually go to the dump and is burned, just as those who lose their salvation will.

So, where is any verse that actually SAYS that one's salvation can be lost???

Something that important surely would be clearly stated.

So it's no longer salt as believers are no longer believers. Again you are using semantics instead of seeing what Jesus was teaching.

Salt that has lost its saltiness is STILL salt. It's not something else, as you are imagining. Where is the verse that SAYS that if one loses their faith, they will lose their salvation? Or, what verse actually SAYS that one is saved ONLY as long as they continue to believe?

The parable was about losing your salvation. Many people then and now don't understand this parable and the same reason Jesus gave the holds true today.

You're correct about many people not understanding the parable. But it sure isn't about losing salvation. It's about production of fruit and 2 or the 3 believers didn't, due to various circumstances.

and yet I did so. So are you saying I'm wrong and you're right?

Your claims have not been supported by ANY Scripture that actually SAYS that one's salvation can be lost. What you've provided doesn't SAY what you claim.

What did John accomplish here? It was salvation.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here regarding 2 Jn 8.

Why warn someone about not losing it if they can?

Where did John say anything about salvation in v.8?

Here it is again, to review:

2 John 1:8
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Seems you think the "full reward" is salvation. Why??? We aren't rewarded with salvation for good works. A reward is something earned and deserved.

With all the scriptures you present, you fail to understand the warning being given. You don't warn people about losing salvation if it can't be lost.

And Scripture doesn't warn against loss of salvation.

If the reward for salvation is eternal life and we risk losing that reward then obviously we lose salvation. Anyone that is NOT bound to a dogmatic POV will see that.

The error here is quite obviously seen in the first sentence. There is NO reward for salvation. And salvation AND eternal life are the SAME, so your statement makes no sense.

Again, there is no reward for salvation, and salvation and eternal life are the same thing.

Please review both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 regarding the difference between what is earned/deserved and grace. I think you don't understand grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This question was asked of hamster:
So who exactly are LOST sheep? Are they all His now?

Of course. I believe Jesus to actually be a Good Shepherd.

Sounds as if you are a universalist now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll say it once again. Nowhere in scripture are you going to find sheep being referred to as anything but God's people. So your semantical argument falls way short.

I'll repeat myself again. In the context of Jn 10, after Jesus said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He made no comment about any human NOT a sheep. 10:26 is clear; that crowd of unbelievers were described as "not of My sheep". Jesus did NOT say they were not sheep, as you keep insinuating.

ETA And He did refer to them as something other than sheep. Wolves, thieves, robbers.

No He didn't. The chapter begins with a different context. But once He said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, there is NO evidence of anyone NOT being a sheep. Here's what He noted:
#1 the sheep
#2 My sheep
#3 other sheep of Mine
#4 not of My sheep

 

[Hammster]

This question was asked of hamster:
So who exactly are LOST sheep? Are they all His now?

Sounds as if you are a universalist now.

Not at all.

 

[Hammster]

I'll repeat myself again. In the context of Jn 10, after Jesus said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He made no comment about any human NOT a sheep. 10:26 is clear; that crowd of unbelievers were described as "not of My sheep". Jesus did NOT say they were not sheep, as you keep insinuating.


No He didn't. The chapter begins with a different context. But once He said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, there is NO evidence of anyone NOT being a sheep. Here's what He noted:
#1 the sheep
#2 My sheep
#3 other sheep of Mine
#4 not of My sheep

The context never changes through chapter 10. And neither does Jesus' use of sheep in all of His teaching. And neither does the use of sheep in scripture. You've yet to show otherwise, except a weak semantical argument.

 

[Hammster]

I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The context never changes through chapter 10. And neither does Jesus' use of sheep in all of His teaching. And neither does the use of sheep in scripture. You've yet to show otherwise, except a weak semantical argument.

I've already shown you. Here it is again:
No He didn't. The chapter begins with a different context. But once He said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, there is NO evidence of anyone NOT being a sheep. Here's what He noted:
#1 the sheep
#2 My sheep
#3 other sheep of Mine
#4 not of My sheep

Where do you find any reference to "not sheep" here?

And, in fact, you've not proven your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

I suppose that would be the conclusion from those who misunderstand ch 10 of John's gospel.

But the key in that chapter is what Jesus said, before He said He lays down His life for the sheep.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

First, Jesus says that He is the "door" of THE sheep, those He died for (v.11).

Second, Jesus says that "IF anyone enters through Me, he will be saved". Here, He is speaking of ANY of the sheep. The point is they HAVE TO enter through Him to be saved. Nothing about becoming sheep to be saved, as Calvinism seems to spin it.

Third, Jesus is very clear in v.10 that Je came to earth that they (THE sheep) "may have life". Not that they (THE sheep) all WILL have life.

Now, there is a choice. Continue to post your disagreement, with proves nothing at all, or actually take my points one by one to show how I am wrong in my exegesis of the text.

It'll be interesting to see what choice was made.

 

[Hammster]

I've already shown you. Here it is again:
No He didn't. The chapter begins with a different context. But once He said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, there is NO evidence of anyone NOT being a sheep. Here's what He noted:
#1 the sheep
#2 My sheep
#3 other sheep of Mine
#4 not of My sheep

Where do you find any reference to "not sheep" here?

And, in fact, you've not proven your claim.

You have a weak semantical argument. And I'm not going to go through all of scripture and post every reference to sheep to make my point. But the evidence would be overwhelming.

 

[Hammster]

I suppose that would be the conclusion from those who misunderstand ch 10 of John's gospel.

But the key in that chapter is what Jesus said, before He said He lays down His life for the sheep.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

First, Jesus says that He is the "door" of THE sheep, those He died for (v.11).

Second, Jesus says that "IF anyone enters through Me, he will be saved". Here, He is speaking of ANY of the sheep. The point is they HAVE TO enter through Him to be saved. Nothing about becoming sheep to be saved, as Calvinism seems to spin it.

Third, Jesus is very clear in v.10 that Je came to earth that they (THE sheep) "may have life". Not that they (THE sheep) all WILL have life.

Now, there is a choice. Continue to post your disagreement, with proves nothing at all, or actually take my points one by one to show how I am wrong in my exegesis of the text.

It'll be interesting to see what choice was made.

So NOW the context is all of John 10? I can't keep up with the flip flopping.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have a weak semantical argument. And I'm not going to go through all of scripture and post every reference to sheep to make my point. But the evidence would be overwhelming.

Rather, quite underwhelming. In the local context of John 10, the sheep refers to humanity.

Your claim that my argument is weak semantics is less than weak. Your claims do not prove a thing. Where is your proof?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So NOW the context is all of John 10? I can't keep up with the flip flopping.

It would be helpful to actually read what I post before you make such a mistake. I specifically noted v.7-11. I never said anything about "all of Jn 10".

 

[stan1953]

No, not everyone is saved. I'm not a universalist.

We aren't talking about universalism (which seems to be a pet form of deflection of yours) and I initially asked if the lost sheep are saved....so are they?

 

[sdowney717]

We aren't talking about universalism (which seems to be a pet form of deflection of yours) and I initially asked if the lost sheep are saved....so are they?

Look up lost sheep and see what happens to them.
like Jesus saying this was my lost sheep which I have found.
and 1 peter 2

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Luke 15:4

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

Luke 15:6
And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

The reason Jesus was sent to all the lost sheep was to save all of the lost sheep.

Matthew 15:24

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

This is also us called of God because we are the seed of Abraham.


Psalm 119:176

I have gone astray like a lost sheep; Seek Your servant, For I do not forget Your commandments.

You bet He seeks His lost sheep. Lost sheep are His servants or will be, who will be saved or are.

Jeremiah 50:6

“My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look up lost sheep and see what happens to them.
like Jesus saying this was my lost sheep which I have found.

So, there are sheep that were not lost, and needed finding?

You bet He seeks His lost sheep. Lost sheep are His servants or will be, who will be saved or are.

Why did "His own" reject Him? Jn 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Who are "His own" that He to and did not receive Him?

And in context, who are the "all" in v.7?
John 1:7
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

 

[sdowney717]

So, there are sheep that were not lost, and needed finding?

Sure, all sheep were lost, all lost sheep need to be found or they stay lost.

Why did "His own" reject Him? Jn 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Who are "His own" that He to and did not receive Him?

Those were the Jews.
In Ezekiel 18, God speaks to them saying,

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

And in context, who are the "all" in v.7?
John 1:7
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

"might" believe. They may or may not believe, do we have God's mind about that?

I might go the store today, can you know if I will? No, but God knows.

'All' here is truly relevant to all people all over. Which includes Gentiles, not just Jews. this passage in John tells us God was going to save all types of people including gentiles, not just Jews. Back then it was a shocking blasphemous Idea to Jews that God would save sinning gentiles.

A commentary says this

1:7, 9 all . . . everyone. The universal relevance of the gospel is asserted (v. 7) as well as the enlightening activity of God’s common grace (v. 9). God’s saving activity is not restricted to any particular people.

But salvation is for ALL who might believe in Christ. It is not for all who wont believe in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure, all sheep were lost, all lost sheep need to be found or they stay lost.

Just remember that Jesus SAID that He would lay down His life for THE sheep.

But salvation is for ALL who might believe in Christ. It is not for all who wont believe in Christ.

Salvation is for anyone. But they do have to believe to be saved.

 

[nobdysfool]

Please understand that the word "might" here is not used in the sense that we understand it today, as a possibility. English words and usage have changed over the centuries.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Please understand that the word "might" here is not used in the sense that we understand it today, as a possibility. English words and usage have changed over the centuries.

Not to mention different contexts, like any preacher preaching to a congregation, they should include a general Gospel call to all of those in the audience, that all hearers of the word might believe, because no preacher knows who will or will not believe in their congregation (nor the time of God's choosing) with absolute certainty when all is said and done. Of course this context does not at the same time exclude also preaching an effectual calling and election by God before the foundation of the world and the comforts it provides for those God chose to save.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Just remember that Jesus SAID that He would lay down His life for THE sheep.


Salvation is for anyone. But they do have to believe to be saved.

Contradictory statements, unless you believe everyone is a sheep, but then why the parable of the Sheep AND the goats? Things that make you go hmmm...