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Twenty years of two and a half degrees of warming

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Subduction Zone

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Your words of hate & condemnation don't scare me in the least. The subject is too big for you to understand. You are part of the virus that just does not tolerate other opinions.
No one is using hate, well no one on the science side is using hate. Condemnation is earned when a person's personal beliefs and actions are a threat to others. An actual teacher would try to learn. Simply claiming to have degrees is worthless when one's arguments demonstrate a lack of education in this topic.

You demonstrated that you did not even understand the Greenhouse Effect. It is a good starting point to understanding AGW. Would you care to discuss that? It is not that hard to understand.
 
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lordjeff

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I know how the greenhouse effect works Bud. And I have plenty of science, you are exercising a prejudgment that I don't know a thing. Even in the science world there is disagreement. Remember the case of Hoyle vs the Big Bang. We just don't have a runaway greenhouse effect. You'd like to think we do but at the heart of the matter-this whole debate has nothing to do with reducing the planet's temperature. Always follow the money.
 
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Shemjaza

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I know how the greenhouse effect works Bud. And I have plenty of science, you are exercising a prejudgment that I don't know a thing. Even in the science world there is disagreement. Remember the case of Hoyle vs the Big Bang. We just don't have a runaway greenhouse effect. You'd like to think we do but at the heart of the matter-this whole debate has nothing to do with reducing the planet's temperature. Always follow the money.
....aaand we're back to the old "Evil, rich, fat cat scientists squabbling little government research grants" VS "Those salt of the Earth, ordinary men who own or run oil companies."

I think it might be the truly most ridiculous argument put forward about the climate.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I know how the greenhouse effect works Bud. And I have plenty of science, you are exercising a prejudgment that I don't know a thing. Even in the science world there is disagreement. Remember the case of Hoyle vs the Big Bang. We just don't have a runaway greenhouse effect. You'd like to think we do but at the heart of the matter-this whole debate has nothing to do with reducing the planet's temperature. Always follow the money.
If you did why cannot you explain it properly? And no, your posts tell us that your understanding of the sciences is rather tenuous. No one is claiming a "runaway Greenhouse Effect" at least not as can be seen on Venus. The fact is that various elements of AGW have a feedback effect which means that increasing the amount of CO2 in the air has a greater effect than that from the CO2 alone.

And yes, there is disagreement in the sciences. Guess how that is dealt with? By studying the problem and finding evidence. The evidence supports the Big Bang theory. Hoyle could not find adequate, if any, for his beliefs. Scientists dumped Hoyle's beliefs because they were not properly supported.

By the way, "follow the money" does not really work as a method to attack scientist. They do not get paid extra for saying that AGW is a problem. Though some of them do get paid extra for saying that it is not.

Here is a challenge: In your own words try to explain the Greenhouse Effect. Why does carbon dioxide raise the temperature of the Earth. Included in that explanation it would be nice to have the reason how we knew that there was something warming the Earth.
 
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lordjeff

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Follow the money trail always works in science. I've told you before CO2 absorbs IR rays in a very narrow range of wavelengths: around 1460, 1960, 2010, 2060 nm. It can do this b/c it is a vibrational/rotational molecule. However, the Sun does not emit strict IR. The Sun emits mostly in the visible range of EMR. Of course we know that each photon has several destinies it could take. It might be reflected back by clouds or absorbed by clouds. It may reach earth & be absorbed or reflected back, even diffracted. We also know that clouds do roam the atmosphere & so other particulates like dust & ash & sand particulates & other gases. The thing CO2 is not just existing in a static vacuum. It is getting absorbed by our repositories (oceans, vegetation, limestone). That's the difference. Planet earth has a buffer & that buffer serves to keep the CO2 content at 0.038% of the atmosphere. Planet Jupiter contains frozen methane, another greenhouse gas. You don't see runaway heating there. Other factors of the grand design of the universe play a role.
 
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lordjeff

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....aaand we're back to the old "Evil, rich, fat cat scientists squabbling little government research grants" VS "Those salt of the Earth, ordinary men who own or run oil companies."

I think it might be the truly most ridiculous argument put forward about the climate.

If you don't believe that people in science can't go corrupt then you don't understand the nature of human beings. I'll give one example. Almost 2 decades ago Merck came out with a drug called Vioxx & raved about it. As it turned out a lot of people got hurt by that drug & it was yanked from the market. Moral of the story, yeah no one is ruled out in getting greedy. Merck has had to work hard in building back their reputation. This is why integrity in hiring is necessary in Big Pharma. In the current vaccine trials, even in the trials, the companies noted if there was a major stumbling block & adjusted their time line as such. Many examples from science: red dye #2, saccharine, glyphosphate, chlordane. DDT. I'm not saying all scientists are greedy & corrupt but we know from the history of mankind that temptation occurs. Again I choose to disagree with your opinion on global warming. I do not believe we have a runaway greenhouse effect. I believe certainly climate can change because of all the scientific processes involved, I just don't believe that a gas that doesn't reside too long in any one position suddenly warms the ground surface, the water column, the atmospheric column. Earth simply has different properties than Venus.
 
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lordjeff

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No answer to my question?
Or a you giving the standard climate denier response.
I don't join sides such as climate denier or anti-vaccer. I just simply have not been impressed by the literature to think a gas that occupies 0.038% of the atmosphere has such a warming effect. It is clearly wrong when any textbook or module or podcast would open up chapter 1 in earth science & say the earth is the 3rd planet from the sun & possesses such unique properties that keep it hot & zesty & that therefore this specific gas called CO2 is abounding with leaps & bounds that the planet is overheating.
 
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sjastro

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I don't join sides such as climate denier or anti-vaccer. I just simply have not been impressed by the literature to think a gas that occupies 0.038% of the atmosphere has such a warming effect. It is clearly wrong when any textbook or module or podcast would open up chapter 1 in earth science & say the earth is the 3rd planet from the sun & possesses such unique properties that keep it hot & zesty & that therefore this specific gas called CO2 is abounding with leaps & bounds that the planet is overheating.
Why don't you simply respond you don't know and admit you are not as educated on the subject as you have been boasting in this thread.
The answer to the question is terrestrial biological carbon and hydrologic cycles are not included as radiative forcing components are a consequence of the continuity equation.
The continuity equation is another way of expressing the conservation of mass.
The terrestrial biological carbon and hydrologic cycles where CO₂ and water vapour respectively are conserved with the negative and positive radiative forcing components effectively cancelling each other out.
Anthropogenic CO₂ on the hand is not part of any cycle which conserves mass and is increasing as a result.
 
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sjastro

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Follow the money trail always works in science. I've told you before CO2 absorbs IR rays in a very narrow range of wavelengths: around 1460, 1960, 2010, 2060 nm. It can do this b/c it is a vibrational/rotational molecule. However, the Sun does not emit strict IR. The Sun emits mostly in the visible range of EMR. Of course we know that each photon has several destinies it could take. It might be reflected back by clouds or absorbed by clouds. It may reach earth & be absorbed or reflected back, even diffracted. We also know that clouds do roam the atmosphere & so other particulates like dust & ash & sand particulates & other gases. The thing CO2 is not just existing in a static vacuum. It is getting absorbed by our repositories (oceans, vegetation, limestone). That's the difference. Planet earth has a buffer & that buffer serves to keep the CO2 content at 0.038% of the atmosphere. Planet Jupiter contains frozen methane, another greenhouse gas. You don't see runaway heating there. Other factors of the grand design of the universe play a role.
You seem to not be aware the Earth's surface and atmosphere absorbs light in the UV and visible range and radiates it in the IR range.
I've also explained in my previous response anthropogenic CO₂ is not part of any mass conserving cycle and is clearly increasing.
The argument about Jupiter is nonsensical.
Have you heard of the inverse square law?
The Earth receives approximately 1380 W/m² solar radiation in the upper atmosphere compared to 53.48 W/m² at Jupiter's cloud tops.
Furthermore most of the methane on Jupiter is located under the cloud layers where very little solar radiation penetrates.

cfcbbb328b410065dd20e6c40b95aef8.jpg
 
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eclipsenow

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Your words of hate & condemnation don't scare me in the least. The subject is too big for you to understand. You are part of the virus that just does not tolerate other opinions.
Don't flatter yourself - I don't know you enough to hate you. Unless you actually try and answer the questions put to you about relatively simple things - you're just another dime-a-dozen right-wing climate denier. I don't know you - but I know your type. I'm just responding to decades of listening to "But you've GOT to respect my opinion - it's my right to have my opinion!"
Yes - you're allowed to have your own opinion. But I don't have to respect it - especially if it's based on the same waffle you've been coming up with so far. You've actually got to engage with the science and explain where the science is wrong if you're going to have any credibility.
"It's the sun!" No it isn't - the sun was in a slight cooling phase second half of last century and the planet kept warming.

There are chaotic things in the climate system that those clever, clever climate scientists are still nailing down. But they're the tiniest ripples across the data. The major waves are obvious. Incoming sunlight + the repeatable, demonstrable science of CO2's heat trapping ability = 4 Hiroshima bombs per second extra heat being trapped, all day, every day. And the results just keep accumulating in thousands of different ways.
4_c365-6-l.jpg
 
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eclipsenow

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Why don't you simply respond you don't know and admit you are not as educated on the subject as you have been boasting in this thread.
The answer to the question is terrestrial biological carbon and hydrologic cycles are not included as radiative forcing components are a consequence of the continuity equation.
The continuity equation is another way of expressing the conservation of mass.
The terrestrial biological carbon and hydrologic cycles where CO₂ and water vapour respectively are conserved with the negative and positive radiative forcing components effectively cancelling each other out.
Anthropogenic CO₂ on the hand is not part of any cycle which conserves mass and is increasing as a result.
Interesting. So in layman's terms - are they left out because the hydrological cycle which does increase as the planet warms is a feedback of the increased CO2, not a cause?
 
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Shemjaza

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If you don't believe that people in science can't go corrupt then you don't understand the nature of human beings. I'll give one example. Almost 2 decades ago Merck came out with a drug called Vioxx & raved about it. As it turned out a lot of people got hurt by that drug & it was yanked from the market. Moral of the story, yeah no one is ruled out in getting greedy. Merck has had to work hard in building back their reputation. This is why integrity in hiring is necessary in Big Pharma. In the current vaccine trials, even in the trials, the companies noted if there was a major stumbling block & adjusted their time line as such. Many examples from science: red dye #2, saccharine, glyphosphate, chlordane. DDT. I'm not saying all scientists are greedy & corrupt but we know from the history of mankind that temptation occurs. Again I choose to disagree with your opinion on global warming. I do not believe we have a runaway greenhouse effect. I believe certainly climate can change because of all the scientific processes involved, I just don't believe that a gas that doesn't reside too long in any one position suddenly warms the ground surface, the water column, the atmospheric column. Earth simply has different properties than Venus.
The point wasn't that it's impossible for scientists to be corrupt... it's that your argument that one side is corrupt because you accuse them of being motivated by money. But the other side of the disagreement is one of the largest and and richest industries run by multi millionaires and owned by billionaires.

You are argument is inconsistent and silly.
 
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eclipsenow

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No answer to my question?
Or a you giving the standard climate denier response.
Love the crickets!
I always say climate deniers don't debate, they rotate. It's like they know they are firing blanks, but just keep firing new blanks at a forum in the hope that someone will get distracted by all the noise and start to think there's real ammo in there. EG:-
Denier: "It's the sun!"
Peer-reviewed response: "No it's not as the sun was in a cooling phase during the second half of the 20th Century and yet the planet kept warming. We know from basic physics in a lab how much energy CO2 traps!"
Denier: "There's warming on Mars!"
Peer-reviewed response: "No, there are seasons on Mars and sometimes those seasons look like climate change on Mars. But if we look back here on earth, we can see that CO2 was at 280ppm then jumped to 400ppm today - and we know from the simple maths of the Radiative Forcing Equation that this ads about 4 Hiroshima bombs of heat to our planet per second! We also know it's our fossil fuel use by the isotopes of carbon!"
Denier: "Well, what about.... xyz...."

Note: the denier never really engages substantively with a single reply or disproves any of the science. They just keep going. I've seen forums where a denier probably went through as many arguments as there are letters in the alphabet - and eventually came back to asserting A again. It happened over several months, but when I realised what was happening I had to call it out.
DENIERS DON'T DEBATE - THEY ROTATE! But we don't need to worry. They're only firing blanks.
 
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eclipsenow

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The point wasn't that it's impossible for scientists to be corrupt... it's that your argument that one side is corrupt because you accuse them of being motivated by money. But the other side of the disagreement is one of the largest and and richest industries run by multi millionaires and owned by billionaires.

You are argument is inconsistent and silly.
The accusation that "Climate scientists are just in it for the money!" is just so funny - there's a global conspiracy of climate scientists who might earn anywhere from $60k to $100k per year - and this conspiracy is consistently running through every single physics lab on the planet with a basic Fourier device! Yet oil barons earning well over 10 times that PER DAY are somehow motivated to be honest about climate science which threatens their entire industry? Um - who actually has more motivation to lie their pants off? Who has been documented as lying their pants off? Exon scientists modelled climate change in the 1970's and 80's. And the Koch brothers fund climate denial noise in everything from industry groups, church groups through to retirement villages!
 
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eclipsenow

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O henny penny the sky is falling, we must tell the king. The earth has put up different periods of climate & sorry guys the co2 is not going to roast your marshmallows.
Guess what? Many of those different periods of paleoclimate history super-greenhouses WERE from CO2! Some of the stories written in the rocks terrify modern climate scientists as to what could be coming!
Try again!
 
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eclipsenow

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If every Monday I walk outside with blue shoes & happen to notice that for 4 weeks in a row, it rained on those Mondays, I cannot equate causation with correlation & that is the problem you guys are having.
Guess what?
You can say dismissive things about correlation and causation - but you haven't once actually disproved the basic physics discovered by Eunice Foote 164 years ago - and that even Mythbusters can devise tests for. According to you, every single physics lab on the entire PLANET is involved in a conspiracy. That's ridiculous. Try again!
tinfoil.png
 
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