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Trying to understand Lutheran election

Skala

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So becoming a Christian isn't something we can choose to become. It's entirely in God's hands who's saved and damned. We don't have any free will to choose God.

I agree with your overall monergistic theology Edward but I wanted to give a friendly word of caution with regards to your wording here.

The Biblical/reformed position is not that we don't make a choice to become a Christian, but rather, we freely and willingly choose to obey the gospel and follow Christ because God has monergistically regenerated us and changed our hearts.

In other words, because of our fallen natures, our natural response to the gospel is to disbelieve it and remain in rebellion.

But when the Spirit comes and quickens us, by grace, our natural response is to willingly obey and believe. Thus we truly make a very real choice to become a Christian.

Your wording made it sound like no choice, no human will, no human volition was involved at all in the process. That is not true at all. Our wills are quite involved.

Prior to regeneration, our wills reject Christ.
Post regeneration, our wills delight in Christ and willingly follow him.

The will is very much active, it just isn't autonomous. The will's job is to simply go where the heart desires to go. Does the heart desire to reject Christ? Then the will chooses to do so. Does the heart desire to obey Christ and accept the gospel? Then the will chooses to do so.

The reason any hearts at all desire Christ is because of grace, in the form of regeneration.
 
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Edward65

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I agree with your overall monergistic theology Edward but I wanted to give a friendly word of caution with regards to your wording here.

The Biblical/reformed position is not that we don't make a choice to become a Christian, but rather, we freely and willingly choose to obey the gospel and follow Christ because God has monergistically regenerated us and changed our hearts.

In other words, because of our fallen natures, our natural response to the gospel is to disbelieve it and remain in rebellion.

But when the Spirit comes and quickens us, by grace, our natural response is to willingly obey and believe. Thus we truly make a very real choice to become a Christian.

Your wording made it sound like no choice, no human will, no human volition was involved at all in the process. That is not true at all. Our wills are quite involved.

Prior to regeneration, our wills reject Christ.
Post regeneration, our wills delight in Christ and willingly follow him.

The will is very much active, it just isn't autonomous. The will's job is to simply go where the heart desires to go. Does the heart desire to reject Christ? Then the will chooses to do so. Does the heart desire to obey Christ and accept the gospel? Then the will chooses to do so.

The reason any hearts at all desire Christ is because of grace, in the form of regeneration.

I'm in agreement with some of what you say but I don't agree with your assertion that "the Biblical position is not that we don't make a choice to become a Christian". I have to disagree. The Bible teaches that our wills don't cooperate in our conversion but that it happens as you say monergistically. If our wills weren't passive in regeneration then regeneration wouldn't be monergistic but synergistic. It's only after we've been regenerated by the Holy Spirit that we can give assent to the Gospel. So when you say that "we truly make a very real choice to become a Christian" I can't agree. We don't choose to become a Christian, rather we will to be and to remain a Christian only after we've been regenerated.

We don't have the ability to choose to believe the Gospel when being regenerated as we don't have free will. Our will is a slave to sin and hostile to God because of original sin and therefore it's unable to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in regeneration. Rather the Holy Spirit must overcome our resistance to God by regenerating us and only then do we willingly co-operate with God. I agree with Luther when he wrote that we are unable to choose God, and that the human will is like a beast between two riders - God and Satan:

"Thus the human will is, as it were, a beast between the two. If God sit thereon, it wills and goes where God will: as the Psalm saith, "I am become as it were a beast before thee, and I am continually with thee." (Ps. lxxiii. 22-23.) If Satan sit thereon, it wills and goes as Satan will. Nor is it in the power of its own will to choose, to which rider it will run, nor which it will seek; but the riders themselves contend, which shall have and hold it." (section 25, The Bondage of the Will, Cole)

So I agree with you when you say "Prior to regeneration, our wills reject Christ. Post regeneration, our wills delight in Christ and willingly follow him", but I don't agree with you when you say in effect that our wills aren't passive in regeneration and that they choose to be regenerated.

There’s a passage in Luther’s Table Talk which I find particularly illuminating with respect to this:

“Some few divines allege, that the Holy Ghost works not in those that resist him, but only in
such as are willing and give consent thereto, whence it would appear that free-will is only a cause
and helper of faith, and that consequently faith alone justifies not, and that the Holy Ghost does
not alone work through the Word, but that our will does something therein.

But I say it is not so; the will of mankind works nothing at all in his conversion and justification;
Non est efficiens causa justificationis sed marerialis tantum. It is the matter on which the Holy
Ghost works (as a potter makes a pot out of clay), equally in those that resist and are averse, as in
St Paul. But after the Holy Ghost has wrought in the wills of such resistants, then he also manages
that the will be consenting thereunto.

They say and allege further, That the example of St Paul’s conversion is a particular and special
work of God, and therefore cannot be brought in for a general rule. I answer: even like as St Paul
was converted, just so are all others converted; for we all resist God, but the Holy Ghost draws the
will of mankind, when he pleases, through preaching.

Even as no man may lawfully have children, except in a state of matrimony, though many
married people have no children, so the Holy Ghost works not always through the Word but when
it pleases him, so that free-will does nothing inwardly in our conversion and justification before
God, neither does it work with our strength—no, not in the least, unless we be prepared and made
fit by the Holy Ghost.

The sentences in Holy Scripture touching predestination, as, “No man can come to me except
the Father draweth him,” seem to terrify and affright us; yet they but show that we can do nothing
of our own strength and will that is good before God, and put the godly also in mind to pray. When
people do this, they may conclude they are predestinated.” CCLXIII.Hazlitt
 
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Edward65

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Luther was not following the command of Jesus to love when he supported killing people who disagreed with his theology. Perhaps the greatest corruption of God's word is done when one kills someone for not agreeing with their theology.

Luther never supported killing heretics or people who disagreed with his theology. It was the Papists who advocated killing heretics and burning people at the stake who disagreed with them. Luther was opposed to this and argued that heretics should be left alone to believe as they wanted as only God can convince a person of the truth. However if heretics advocated rebellion against the state then of course that was a different matter and when the Peasants Rebellion broke out Luther rightly was opposed to this as peasants were going round looting and murdering people. It was in response to this that Luther wrote his "Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants" in which he argued that it was the duty of the governing authorities to suppress the peasants by force as they were in open rebellion against the government, and that if they were allowed to continue the whole country would be thrown into anarchy and uproar.

Luther argued that there were three reasons why those in authority should use force against the peasants: (1) they were disobedient to the governing authorities in violation of Paul's injunction to be subject to them - Romans 13:1. (2) they were going round stealing from and murdering those who they opposed, and (3) they were doing so under the pretext of being Christians and therefore blaspheming God. So under these circumstances Luther rightly said the rulers should use force against them and kill them if they refused to stop doing what they were doing.

So you're wrong to allege that Luther supported killing people who disagreed with his theology. He didn't. He only supported killing people who were rebels against the government and who couldn't be suppressed without using force.
 
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FireDragon76

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Human beings do have a will of their own that is distinct from the will of God: in fact that is basic Chalcedonian Christology (Christ had two wills, one human and one divine). And in order for Christ to be tempted, there had to be something in the human will to not always reconcile with the divine will, thus making it free to some extent from God's will.

I don't believe the distinction between "monergism" and "synergism" is always coherent philosophically (though the issue of how the Gospel is pastorally preached is another issue). We really do participate in salvation, at least in the sense most people understand the meaning of the word "participation".
 
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guuila

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Luther was not following the command of Jesus to love when he supported killing people who disagreed with his theology. Perhaps the greatest corruption of God's word is done when one kills someone for not agreeing with their theology.

Before you go all self-righteous on us, remember that YOU are not following the command of Jesus to love when you sin every day. Perhaps the greatest corruption of Ezekiel 18 is done when one sins continually.
 
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Skala

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I'm in agreement with some of what you say but I don't agree with your assertion that "the Biblical position is not that we don't make a choice to become a Christian". I have to disagree. The Bible teaches that our wills don't cooperate in our conversion but that it happens as you say monergistically. If our wills weren't passive in regeneration then regeneration wouldn't be monergistic but synergistic

You misunderstand what I was saying. I didn't say our will was involved in our regeneration (I believe it isn't, because regeneration is monergistic - the work of God alone). I said that once we are regenerated, once our heart is changed, the new, spiritually alive heart's desire is for Christ and is now willing to obey the gospel, thus we choose accordingly. What does the choosing? The will.

It's only after we've been regenerated by the Holy Spirit that we can give assent to the Gospel.

That's what I was saying all along....
 
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Edward65

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You misunderstand what I was saying. I didn't say our will was involved in our regeneration (I believe it isn't, because regeneration is monergistic - the work of God alone). I said that once we are regenerated, once our heart is changed, the new, spiritually alive heart's desire is for Christ and is now willing to obey the gospel, thus we choose accordingly. What does the choosing? The will.



That's what I was saying all along....

I was going by what your words appeared to say and you said "Thus we truly make a very real choice to become a Christian". and I understood by that, that you meant that our will is active and not passive in regeneration. However if you didn't mean what your words seemed to say then of course I accept your clarification.
 
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Yahu

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There is no difference. Soul in EZekiel 18 means our spiritual existence. It does not always mean that in other parts of the bible.

Well that explains the root of your problems in understanding. They are two totally different things. Salvation of the soul is the sanctification process, the renewing of our mind to become more Christlike and has nothing to do with entrance into heaven but our rewards within the kingdom. It pertains to spiritual growth, not spiritual birth.
 
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Arcoe

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You misunderstand what I was saying. I didn't say our will was involved in our regeneration (I believe it isn't, because regeneration is monergistic - the work of God alone). I said that once we are regenerated, once our heart is changed, the new, spiritually alive heart's desire is for Christ and is now willing to obey the gospel, thus we choose accordingly. What does the choosing? The will.

When one refuses to believe God's very word, this is the natural conclusion one makes concerning regeneration.

It is God's word which tells how one is regenerated and receives a new heart, and not a belief from man's own understanding. It is man willing to obey and cast away his transgressions before he receives a new heart. If you want to argue with and ignore God's very words, then have at it.

But God's Word has withstood, and will continue to withstand, all attempts by man to change His Word.
 
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shturt678

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:):):) I'm just one of those non-modern Lutherans that doesn't agree with the modern's "rule and operation of God's grace regarding the 'elect.'" I'm a Rom.8:28, 29 type, ie, "....for those who are called according to purpose." Can even throw in Mk.13:22 & IPet.1:2. Just ol' old Lutheran Jack. :thumbsup:
 
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shturt678

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When one refuses to believe God's very word, this is the natural conclusion one makes concerning regeneration.

It is God's word which tells how one is regenerated and receives a new heart, and not a belief from man's own understanding. It is man willing to obey and cast away his transgressions before he receives a new heart. If you want to argue with and ignore God's very words, then have at it.

But God's Word has withstood, and will continue to withstand, all attempts by man to change His Word.

:):):) How do you define "His Word," eg, Bibles? :confused:
 
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shturt678

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Why does it seem like this thread has devolved into "You're refusing to believe the Bible!" answered by "Nuh-uh, YOU are refusing to believe the Bible!" :doh:

:):):) I thought we were believing in the promise, within the Scriptures, where Bibles are great aids in understanding the original Autographs. :confused:
 
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Arcoe

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:):):) How do you define "His Word," eg, Bibles? :confused:

The Word is Jesus Himself, which is Truth Itself, Light Itself, and Life Itself.

I will admit some of His Word is not easily defined nor interpreted. But in most cases they do not need to be understood completely in order to obtain salvation. Most passages which do speak of salvation, sin, and life are as clear as the cloudless sky.

Man doesn't need to dig with tenacity to find the simple truths of salvation. The simple truths are like ripe fruit on the vine, easy to see and easy to get. It is these simple truths from which man can hear and learn from God, and be drawn to Him.

It is when man in his complete ignorance of deeper truths tries to interpret them in his own light, which is utter darkness, that he makes all kinds of assumptions and errors regarding the Lord and His truths.

With respect to regeneration of the heart, we are plainly told in Ezekiel 18:31, that when man casts away his transgressions that he makes himself a new heart. Some will usurp this truth and insert their own truth. Where will man's truth get him? Absolutely nowhere!

Once man puts his truth above God's, then he has eaten of the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' and despises the 'tree of life', which is the Lord Himself. He despises the Lord, for he will not submit to God's very truths and obey them. This man lives according to his truths which agree with his infernal loves.
 
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shturt678

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The Word is Jesus Himself, which is Truth Itself, Light Itself, and Life Itself.

I will admit some of His Word is not easily defined nor interpreted. But in most cases they do not need to be understood completely in order to obtain salvation. Most passages which do speak of salvation, sin, and life are as clear as the cloudless sky.

Man doesn't need to dig with tenacity to find the simple truths of salvation. The simple truths are like ripe fruit on the vine, easy to see and easy to get. It is these simple truths from which man can hear and learn from God, and be drawn to Him.

It is when man in his complete ignorance of deeper truths tries to interpret them in his own light, which is utter darkness, that he makes all kinds of assumptions and errors regarding the Lord and His truths.

With respect to regeneration of the heart, we are plainly told in Ezekiel 18:31, that when man casts away his transgressions that he makes himself a new heart. Some will usurp this truth and insert their own truth. Where will man's truth get him? Absolutely nowhere!

Once man puts his truth above God's, then he has eaten of the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' and despises the 'tree of life', which is the Lord Himself. He despises the Lord, for he will not submit to God's very truths and obey them. This man lives according to his truths which agree with his infernal loves.

:):) So glad to meet you Arcoe. I'm an ol' old man named Jack and makes my day when hear of another that cares. Thank you. :thumbsup:

:):) I did have a question regarding "obtaining" salvation. Why are the way or ways of obtaining salvation so diverse to extremely diverse? Eg, Way or ways of God producing a justifying "faith," and etc. I see a "hail storm" rather than clear blue sky, but it could just be me. And wow, those hail little stones hurt, ie, I got caught in the open when I was about 7 or 8 years old and do remember, ouch! :D Just your new friend Jack. :thumbsup:
 
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Edward65

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The Word is Jesus Himself, which is Truth Itself, Light Itself, and Life Itself.

I will admit some of His Word is not easily defined nor interpreted. But in most cases they do not need to be understood completely in order to obtain salvation. Most passages which do speak of salvation, sin, and life are as clear as the cloudless sky.

Man doesn't need to dig with tenacity to find the simple truths of salvation. The simple truths are like ripe fruit on the vine, easy to see and easy to get. It is these simple truths from which man can hear and learn from God, and be drawn to Him.

It is when man in his complete ignorance of deeper truths tries to interpret them in his own light, which is utter darkness, that he makes all kinds of assumptions and errors regarding the Lord and His truths.

With respect to regeneration of the heart, we are plainly told in Ezekiel 18:31, that when man casts away his transgressions that he makes himself a new heart. Some will usurp this truth and insert their own truth. Where will man's truth get him? Absolutely nowhere!

Once man puts his truth above God's, then he has eaten of the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' and despises the 'tree of life', which is the Lord Himself. He despises the Lord, for he will not submit to God's very truths and obey them. This man lives according to his truths which agree with his infernal loves.

I agree with you when you say the truths of salvation are easy to see but one of them isn’t that we have free will to become regenerated if we so decide - which seems to be what you’re saying. The Scriptures teach the opposite. We have no ability to decide to repent and become believers. It depends on God whether we become believers:

[64] But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:64-65 ESV)

[16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. (John 15:16 ESV)

[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25 ESV)

[11] And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. (Matthew 13:11 ESV)

[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:15-16 ESV)

[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48 ESV)

So it’s clear that we can’t be regenerated and come to faith unless God wills to have mercy upon us and appoints us to eternal life.

Coming on to Ezekiel 18:31 “ Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?” (ESV) this has to be understood within the context of the verses above and also Ezekiel 11:19 “And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,”(ESV) and Ezekiel 36:26,27 “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules”. (ESV).

So it’s obvious from these verses that it’s God who gives a new heart and spirit according to whether He decides to have mercy on a person and that man can’t convert himself. Ezekiel 18:31 therefore means that if God grants that a person comes to repentance God will give him a new heart and spirit. The exhortation to repent and make themselves a new heart and spirit doesn't mean they are capable of this, but is designed to show their need and their inability, so that they should ask God for this.
 
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