Trying to round up an Atheist for Formal Debate on I.D.

TheyCallMeDave

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I admit that you believe "that there is plenty of scientific evidence out there for a personal theistic Designer." What we would like to see is actual, objective, independent evidence of design, not to mention a "Designer."

As for accepting wherever the evidence leads, this is the evolutionary biologist/atheist's position. We're free to accept the most parsimonious explanation, an explanation that includes ALL the evidence, not just the evidence that we think best supports a belief.

IDer's believe what they do for religious reasons alone. What I mean by that, is there any amount of evidence that would cause you to change your mind? This is the inherent problem with religious dogma/ID, it starts with the answer, then searches for the questions. Where as the scientific method asks a question, then searches for the answers.

As for the bible as a scientific source, it has offered nothing in the way of enlightenment or discovery. Anything we've ever learned about the natural world, has been through the SM.

PEARL - physical evidence and reasoned logic.

As an atheist I like to think that I have arrived at my beliefs through reason, as best I can.

May I ask you a few questions?

Do you believe in a god/s?

Why do you believe in a god/s?

Why do you think I should believe in a god/s?

Alas, that is exactly why im here to round up a Debate Partner...so I can show compelling evidence of I.D. based on objective standards for what constitutes a design. So sit tight, and stay tuned . And yes, i believe in a Diety which can be called The Personal Theistic Creator of the Universe (viz. God) --- call him whatever you wish but a personal theistic Creator/Designer is always necessary for personal intelligently designed Effects which are very plentiful. Everything including the Heavens above, declare the glory of God -- only its up to Us to refrain from willfully ignoring that because it cramps our style , namely : 'Nobody is going to tell me how to live my life' / 'I have the freedom to do whatever i want' / 'No one is going to OWN me' / 'Im not going to bow to anyone higher than myself' /' There is no one higher or more important than myself' ... and the lame unjustified excuses go on and on.....
 
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TheQuietRiot

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Alas, that is exactly why im here to round up a Debate Partner...so I can show compelling evidence of I.D. based on objective standards for what constitutes a design. So sit tight, and stay tuned . And yes, i believe in a Diety which can be called The Personal Theistic Creator of the Universe (viz. God) --- call him whatever you wish but a personal theistic Creator/Designer is always necessary for personal intelligently designed Effects which are very plentiful. Everything including the Heavens above, declare the glory of God -- only its up to Us to refrain from willfully ignoring that because it cramps our style , namely : 'Nobody is going to tell me how to live my life' / 'I have the freedom to do whatever i want' / 'No one is going to OWN me' / 'Im not going to bow to anyone higher than myself' /' There is no one higher or more important than myself' ... and the lame unjustified excuses go on and on.....

Thing is Dave, its only YOU that is spouting these excuses as reasons why atheists dont believe in god. If you would listen to atheists they say that they don't believe because of a lack of evidence for your god or indeed any other god.

What you are saying is no more silly then if I say that you dont want to believe in Thor for the same reasons you gave for your god. A Muslim could say the same of allah with just as much zeal and conviction as you, so obviously we cannot simply rely on what is told to us by other men as we'd have many different people all commanding us to believe in many different gods. All we ask for is evidence, and we don't get any from anyone.
 
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Loudmouth

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namely : 'Nobody is going to tell me how to live my life' / 'I have the freedom to do whatever i want' / 'No one is going to OWN me' / 'Im not going to bow to anyone higher than myself' /' There is no one higher or more important than myself' ... and the lame unjustified excuses go on and on.....

You are projecting.

Do you ignore the evidence that demonstrates Santa Claus is real because you don't want to be judged by Santa Claus and his "Naught and Nice" list? Do you reject Santa Claus because you want to do what you want to do without worrying about being judged by Santa Claus? Do you realize how misguided your accusations are?
 
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Freodin

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Alas, that is exactly why im here to round up a Debate Partner...so I can show compelling evidence of I.D. based on objective standards for what constitutes a design. So sit tight, and stay tuned . And yes, i believe in a Diety which can be called The Personal Theistic Creator of the Universe (viz. God) --- call him whatever you wish but a personal theistic Creator/Designer is always necessary for personal intelligently designed Effects which are very plentiful. Everything including the Heavens above, declare the glory of God -- only its up to Us to refrain from willfully ignoring that because it cramps our style , namely : 'Nobody is going to tell me how to live my life' / 'I have the freedom to do whatever i want' / 'No one is going to OWN me' / 'Im not going to bow to anyone higher than myself' /' There is no one higher or more important than myself' ... and the lame unjustified excuses go on and on.....

I think this is really interesting.

You are not arguing for a concept of design... you are arguing for a concept of authority.

I would really like to see your arguments for the existence of a "Personal Theistic Creator of the Universe", but I would a lot more like to see you make any argument for the existence of an authority derived from that.
 
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Elioenai26

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If you would listen to atheists they say that they don't believe because of a lack of evidence for your god or indeed any other god.

Although I know you mean well by speaking as you have and that you have intended to speak the truth regarding this particular subject, your statement however is false.

Atheists have varied and diverse reasons for their unbelief. These reasons are as diverse as the atheists themselves. One person may be an atheist because they are of the belief that there is not "sufficient" evidence to warrant belief in the existence of the ultramundane, some may be atheistic because they don't like the idea of an ultimate authority holding them accountable for their actions. These are just two reasons why one may be an atheist. There are more. There might or might not be one underlying idea undergirding these various and sundry reasons, that is not the issue. The issue is that atheism is simply too broad to be labeled as "the disbelief in God or gods because of the lack of evidence." Some atheists may indeed feel this way, but definitely not all. So your statment is false, and at best, ambiguous.

I for one have talked with several atheists here who have openly admitted to all here that even if they were given sufficient evidence to warrant belief in the existence of God, they still would refuse to believe in Him as Christ has said they should.
 
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pjnlsn

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This is the link to the Debate Proposal. Im trying to find an Atheist to debate with, but, if the Atheist doesnt believe my scientific examples of Intelligent Design implying a personal Designer , are credible, then it would be encumbant upon the Atheist to explain , cogently, why it doesnt require an intelligent source (and resorting to 'Evolution did it' im afraid would not be an acceptable refutation) .

Thanks.

Posted in the other thread, but:

I wouldn't call myself a staunch atheist, or even an atheist, but I don't believe anything in the realm of Intelligent Design is credible, likely, or substantial, if that's all your looking for.

I could probably rustle up some good counter arguments to ID if I put my mind to it.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Although I know you mean well by speaking as you have and that you have intended to speak the truth regarding this particular subject, your statement however is false.

Atheists have varied and diverse reasons for their unbelief. These reasons are as diverse as the atheists themselves. One person may be an atheist because they are of the belief that there is not "sufficient" evidence to warrant belief in the existence of the ultramundane, some may be atheistic because they don't like the idea of an ultimate authority holding them accountable for their actions. These are just two reasons why one may be an atheist. There are more. There might or might not be one underlying idea undergirding these various and sundry reasons, that is not the issue. The issue is that atheism is simply too broad to be labeled as "the disbelief in God or gods because of the lack of evidence." Some atheists may indeed feel this way, but definitely not all. So your statment is false, and at best, ambiguous.

I for one have talked with several atheists here who have openly admitted to all here that even if they were given sufficient evidence to warrant belief in the existence of God, they still would refuse to believe in Him as Christ has said they should.

As an atheist, I will accept anything that has sufficient evidence to support it.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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That is great.

It means that your view is my view and thus would be a mutually shared view and therefore, an appropriate common ground upon which we could engage in discussion regarding theism/atheism.

Come, let us reason together.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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Although I know you mean well by speaking as you have and that you have intended to speak the truth regarding this particular subject, your statement however is false.

Atheists have varied and diverse reasons for their unbelief. These reasons are as diverse as the atheists themselves. One person may be an atheist because they are of the belief that there is not "sufficient" evidence to warrant belief in the existence of the ultramundane, some may be atheistic because they don't like the idea of an ultimate authority holding them accountable for their actions. These are just two reasons why one may be an atheist. There are more. There might or might not be one underlying idea undergirding these various and sundry reasons, that is not the issue. The issue is that atheism is simply too broad to be labeled as "the disbelief in God or gods because of the lack of evidence." Some atheists may indeed feel this way, but definitely not all. So your statment is false, and at best, ambiguous.

I for one have talked with several atheists here who have openly admitted to all here that even if they were given sufficient evidence to warrant belief in the existence of God, they still would refuse to believe in Him as Christ has said they should.

I didn't intend it as a blanket statement that applies to each and every atheist. But I honestly think atheism as a term shouldn't really exist at all. Its the default position of all humans on the position of gods existence.
 
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Elioenai26

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Posted in the other thread, but:

I wouldn't call myself a staunch atheist, or even an atheist, but I don't believe anything in the realm of Intelligent Design is credible, likely, or substantial, if that's all your looking for.

I could probably rustle up some good counter arguments to ID if I put my mind to it.

I shall respond to this with a question:

"Would the existence of the electronic device you used to post that comment be best explained by :

A. Its existence was the result of natural forces and matter acting upon other matter over a period of time with no intelligent mind superintending the process.

Or..

B. Its existence was the result of the creative mind of the engineer who designed it and made it?

Surely, you will answer "B".

But if you answer "B", then you are unknowingly agreeing with the concept underlying I.D. arguments. That concept is that design is evidence of a designer.

No sincere academic would deny this very simple premise. And notice that the word "evidence" is used here. Evidence must always be interpreted by each individual "weighing" the evidence.

So the actual question is not: "is design evidence of a designer?" That is patently obvious. But the question is: "is there (what we would refer to as) "design" in the universe that cannot be sufficiently explained by utilizing a purely naturalistic explanation.

Obviously you would say no. You would say that everything that exists is not the handiwork of a creator but that our universe is simply what "is" and as such "just exists" as a brute fact.

But this is the very reason why your argument fails as a valid argument in philosophy.

Throughout this line of thought is the assumption that naturalism/atheism is true. But this is never proven. It "begs the question" for naturalism.

In order for this line to work, one would have to first give a compelling argument for believing atheism is true. But the strongest argument one can use for the non existence of God would be the argument from evil/suffering.

But several plausible theodicies handle this objection.



As long as you are begging the question, you will never be able to formulate a sound argument against I.D.
 
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pjnlsn

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I shall respond to this with a question:

"Would the existence of the electronic device you used to post that comment be best explained by :

A. Its existence was the result of natural forces and matter acting upon other matter over a period of time with no intelligent mind superintending the process.

Or..

B. Its existence was the result of the creative mind of the engineer who designed it and made it?

Surely, you will answer "B".

But if you answer "B", then you are unknowingly agreeing with the concept underlying I.D. arguments. That concept is that design is evidence of a designer.

No sincere academic would deny this very simple premise. And notice that the word "evidence" is used here. Evidence must always be interpreted by each individual "weighing" the evidence.

So the actual question is not: "is design evidence of a designer?" That is patently obvious. But the question is: "is there (what we would refer to as) "design" in the universe that cannot be sufficiently explained by utilizing a purely naturalistic explanation.

Obviously you would say no. You would say that everything that exists is not the handiwork of a creator but that our universe is simply what "is" and as such "just exists" as a brute fact.

But this is the very reason why your argument fails as a valid argument in philosophy.

Throughout this line of thought is the assumption that naturalism/atheism is true. But this is never proven. It "begs the question" for naturalism.

In order for this line to work, one would have to first give a compelling argument for believing atheism is true. But the strongest argument one can use for the non existence of God would be the argument from evil/suffering.

But several plausible theodicies handle this objection.



As long as you are begging the question, you will never be able to formulate a sound argument against I.D.

I'm pretty sure I.D. is either unsubstantiated or unlikely, or both.

Unless you want to get into some obscure philosophical issue, one assumes that we exist, and that we're not all living in a dream world. And so, yes, people exist and a man did design the computer I am using, but I didn't write otherwise. Nor was it written that nothing is designed ever, just that (or it was meant, anyway) humans themselves need not have been designed by something else which in this case is most simply classified as 'superhuman,' be it a classical religious deity or the slightly less personal entity or super-designer, in a sense, of I.D.

Or more simply: I.D. is supremely unsubstantiated, much like any claim of a deity or other godly entity.

And while people are (apparently) inclined to connect their own moral beliefs to the question of whether I.D. is true, or connect it to some grand conflict between religion itself and atheism, the two need not be connected, nor is the solving of any of these conflicts/questions prerequisites to judge I.D. itself.

That all being said, while the most sure objection against I.D. is simply it's insubstantial nature, there is obviously the potential (as always) for an argument directly against it, even if it's more difficult. One need simply argue for some other way that people came about. Or argue on some possible path or origin (not really the second, though) of/for the universe, if that's the topic.

Ultimately while the answer may not be known, any suggestion of such that does not involve a vague 'designer' need not be 'begging the question,' so long as anything at all is known about the topic in hand. Arguments for an alternative can simply be made, and the alternative compared to the original.

Obviously.

P.S. of theodicies and moralizing I will say that a theodicy is simply an attempt to make a theological conception more airtight, or to make it less contradictory, where it might otherewise seem so. A theodicy is a more complex version of some well known or long established bit of theology, with the intent of reducing internal contradictions that may arise from more simpler forms of established theological doctrine. Or, in other words, a moral defense of the deity with regards to it's power.

I'm sure you know all this, but the point is that the act of justifying one aspect of theology with regards to another aspect is irrelevant to the question of whether something exists or has happened in the real world.

And so, to repeat something written earlier, no the best arguments against God are not theodicies, but rather alternative explanations in their own right.

The best explanations against God do not involve theology, for the greatest purpose of theology is to justify the existence of God at all costs, not to find truth.
 
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KCfromNC

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I shall respond to this with a question:

"Would the existence of the electronic device you used to post that comment be best explained by :

A. Its existence was the result of natural forces and matter acting upon other matter over a period of time with no intelligent mind superintending the process.

Or..

B. Its existence was the result of the creative mind of the engineer who designed it and made it?

Surely, you will answer "B".

But if you answer "B", then you are unknowingly agreeing with the concept underlying I.D. arguments. That concept is that design is evidence of a designer.

And more specifically, if you're going to stick to this line of reasoning, the design we see is evidence of a human designer. I guess deducing that humans created the universe is no worse an explanation than what creationists normally give - at least we know humans are real, for example.
 
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