Trying to round up an Atheist for Formal Debate on I.D.

TheyCallMeDave

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7732146/ . This is the link to the Debate Proposal. Im trying to find an Atheist to debate with, but, if the Atheist doesnt believe my scientific examples of Intelligent Design implying a personal Designer , are credible, then it would be encumbant upon the Atheist to explain , cogently, why it doesnt require an intelligent source (and resorting to 'Evolution did it' im afraid would not be an acceptable refutation) .

Thanks.
 

Ken-1122

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7732146/ . This is the link to the Debate Proposal. Im trying to find an Atheist to debate with, but, if the Atheist doesnt believe my scientific examples of Intelligent Design implying a personal Designer , are credible, then it would be encumbant upon the Atheist to explain , cogently, why it doesnt require an intelligent source (and resorting to 'Evolution did it' im afraid would not be an acceptable refutation) .

Thanks.
I thought atheists weren't allowed to post in the "Christian only" section. Why don't you make your case here where we are allowed to post?

Ken
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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I thought atheists weren't allowed to post in the "Christian only" section. Why don't you make your case here where we are allowed to post?

Ken

Anyone can partake in the Formal Debate Room of General Theology . I dont care to bring a Debate to this Room because of the amount of interaction from many people which brings about confusion and non-structure. However, when two people enroll in the Formal Debate Room, theres instituted whats called 'a Peanut Thread' to the Formal Debate thread so others can participate in that seperate thread. , while the Formal Debate thread is just for the two Debaters.
 
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Loudmouth

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. . . , but, if the Atheist doesnt believe my scientific examples of Intelligent Design implying a personal Designer , are credible, then it would be encumbant upon the Atheist to explain , cogently, why it doesnt require an intelligent source (and resorting to 'Evolution did it' im afraid would not be an acceptable refutation) .

Thanks.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."--Christopher Hitchens

This is a quote that you should keep in mind. It is not up to everyone else to disprove your assertions. It is your job to support your own assertions. This is called the burden of proof, and that burden lies with the person making the positive claim. If you want to claim that something is designed then it is up to you to present the evidence that supports that claim.
 
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KCfromNC

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Anyone can partake in the Formal Debate Room of General Theology .

Why would anyone want to debate science in a theology forum? Are you expecting atheists to tell you why creationism is bad theology? If you want to debate the scientific merits of creationism, there's a formal debates sub-forum under the C&E part of Physical sciences - http://www.christianforums.com/f602/
 
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Paradoxum

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Though arguments against ID don't necessarily have to be about scientific. They could be arguments about what sort of arguments are reasonable (God of the gaps), and what sort of authorities does it make sense to trust and to what extent. Eg: As long as there is a way out of the fine-tuning argument (the laws basic necessity or multiple universes) it can't be seen as are argument for God on its own.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."--Christopher Hitchens

This is a quote that you should keep in mind. It is not up to everyone else to disprove your assertions. It is your job to support your own assertions. This is called the burden of proof, and that burden lies with the person making the positive claim. If you want to claim that something is designed then it is up to you to present the evidence that supports that claim.

I actually agree completely with Hitchens quote and your assertions ; however, because both the Theist AND Atheist hold to affirmative positions based on the same scientific evidence and data which BOTH have ...then if Someone of an atheistic persuasion declares that Intelligence wasnt necessary for particular example, i would expect such a Person to go the next step cogently explaining why the example could come from NON-intelligent naturalism and materialism since that would be the opposite of a Designer. Why wouldnt that be fair ?
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Though arguments against ID don't necessarily have to be about scientific. They could be arguments about what sort of arguments are reasonable (God of the gaps), and what sort of authorities does it make sense to trust and to what extent. Eg: As long as there is a way out of the fine-tuning argument (the laws basic necessity or multiple universes) it can't be seen as are argument for God on its own.

There is 'no way out of the fine tuning of OUR Universe' by positing inventions of multiple Universes and other fanciful unprovable speculations ; not only is there absolutely no evidence for many universes...even if there were, they too would require a Designer for....if you have one singular house on a Cul-de-sac that requires a Designer/Builder then a cluster of homes the next block over increases the need for a Designer/Builder -- it doesnt nullify a Designer/Builder.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Why would anyone want to debate science in a theology forum? Are you expecting atheists to tell you why creationism is bad theology? If you want to debate the scientific merits of creationism, there's a formal debates sub-forum under the C&E part of Physical sciences - http://www.christianforums.com/f602/

Im all for Debating in the most appropriate Forum . I simply maintain debating the current scientific evidences from a required Intelligent Designer standpoint , isnt Theology , for you dont have to know anything about a Designer to know that something was purposefully designed. Ergo, the name of 'God' (theology) need not even be mentioned in such a Debate. The Debate can conclude which is the more satisfactory explanation : An intelligently designed system, or, a non-intelligent causation and operation .
 
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Loudmouth

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I actually agree completely with Hitchens quote and your assertions ; however, because both the Theist AND Atheist hold to affirmative positions based on the same scientific evidence and data which BOTH have ...then if Someone of an atheistic persuasion declares that Intelligence wasnt necessary for particular example, i would expect such a Person to go the next step cogently explaining why the example could come from NON-intelligent naturalism and materialism since that would be the opposite of a Designer. Why wouldnt that be fair ?

All they would need to do is show how it is inconsistent with intelligent design.

We could use Newton's Laws as an example. At one point in history it was discovered that Mercury's orbit was inconsistent with the orbit predicted by Newton's Laws of Gravitation. No one knew why this was so, but they did know that the evidence didn't match up to the predictions. It took a few years before a plucky young German named Einstein figured it out. However, Newton's Laws were still falsified without knowing about Relativity.
 
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Loudmouth

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There is 'no way out of the fine tuning of OUR Universe' by positing inventions of multiple Universes and other fanciful unprovable speculations ; not only is there absolutely no evidence for many universes...even if there were, they too would require a Designer for....if you have one singular house on a Cul-de-sac that requires a Designer/Builder then a cluster of homes the next block over increases the need for a Designer/Builder -- it doesnt nullify a Designer/Builder.

Then you would need to present evidence for the mechanisms and processes that an intelligent designer uses to produce universes, show that these processes were used, evidence the designer, and show that universes require a designer. Are you prepared to present this evidence?
 
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Paradoxum

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There is 'no way out of the fine tuning of OUR Universe' by positing inventions of multiple Universes and other fanciful unprovable speculations ; not only is there absolutely no evidence for many universes...

I know, which is why I don't believe there are such universe. There is also no evidence for God, so I don't believe in him either. I do except that there are some things we don't understand (yet?) and I'm ok with that.

even if there were, they too would require a Designer for....if you have one singular house on a Cul-de-sac that requires a Designer/Builder then a cluster of homes the next block over increases the need for a Designer/Builder -- it doesnt nullify a Designer/Builder.

Comparing a Cul-de-sac to irreducible complexity would make sense, but it doesn't make sense for fine tuning. That is more comparable to the lottery. If only one person plays the lottery and wins, then they might wonder if it was the work of a divine hand (though even that wouldn't be necessary). But if millions of people play the lottery, then it seems alot less strange that one of them wins. If there are many universes then we just the luck one.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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All they would need to do is show how it is inconsistent with intelligent design.

We could use Newton's Laws as an example. At one point in history it was discovered that Mercury's orbit was inconsistent with the orbit predicted by Newton's Laws of Gravitation. No one knew why this was so, but they did know that the evidence didn't match up to the predictions. It took a few years before a plucky young German named Einstein figured it out. However, Newton's Laws were still falsified without knowing about Relativity.

If something is inconsistent with intelligent design, then it automatically defaults to non-intelligence as the cause / process . But fortunately, there are sound standards as a basis for determining if something demonstrates Design in conjuction with knowing if it does, intuitively , in nearly every circumstance .
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Then you would need to present evidence for the mechanisms and processes that an intelligent designer uses to produce universes, show that these processes were used, evidence the designer, and show that universes require a designer. Are you prepared to present this evidence?

No, i would need to show that a personal theistic Creator/Designer was absolutely necessary for THIS Universe we have , since we should deal with current reality and not imaginery speculations of Multiple Universes which is unprovable . And yes i am prepared to show that THIS universe requires a Designer since every design requires a Designer and there are numerous scientific evidences which concretely show design from mutually-agreeable objective standards (and not from my subjective opinion) . If a Debate Opponent disagrees to the clear examples of design that i list, then that Opponent would need to objectively show why or how such an example can be had without a Designer -- in other words, the sword cuts both ways in the Debate im offering .
 
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Loudmouth

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If something is inconsistent with intelligent design, then it automatically defaults to non-intelligence as the cause / process. But fortunately, there are sound standards as a basis for determining if something demonstrates Design in conjuction with knowing if it does, intuitively , in nearly every circumstance .

You would also need to steer clear of other logical fallacies that I commonly see in these types of debates, and logical fallacies are at least on topic in the Philosophy forum.

First, the false dichotomy. One can not prove intelligent design by falsifying evolution.

Second, argument from ignorance. This is also called the God-of-the-Gaps. Just because we don't know how something came about does not mean that it is evidence for intelligent design.

Third, argument from incredulity. Just because you can't see how something could evolve does not mean it is designed.

If you could stay away from these major logical fallacies I would be interested in participating.
 
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Loudmouth

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No, i would need to show that a personal theistic Creator/Designer was absolutely necessary for THIS Universe we have , since we should deal with current reality and not imaginery speculations of Multiple Universes which is unprovable .

They are just as speculative as claiming that this universe is the only one that exists.

If a Debate Opponent disagrees to the clear examples of design that i list, then that Opponent would need to objectively show why or how such an example can be had without a Designer -- in other words, the sword cuts both ways in the Debate im offering .

No, all they would need to show is that you have not supplied evidence to support your claim. That's it. Remember the Hitchens' quote?
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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I know, which is why I don't believe there are such universe. There is also no evidence for God, so I don't believe in him either. I do except that there are some things we don't understand (yet?) and I'm ok with that.



Comparing a Cul-de-sac to irreducible complexity would make sense, but it doesn't make sense for fine tuning. That is more comparable to the lottery. If only one person plays the lottery and wins, then they might wonder if it was the work of a divine hand (though even that wouldn't be necessary). But if millions of people play the lottery, then it seems alot less strange that one of them wins. If there are many universes then we just the luck one.

1. If 'God' were a personal theistic Creator/Designer/Sustainer for THIS Universe ...would you agree to that ?

2. You dont think a house's BluePrint design requires parameters of fine tuning regarding the way things are to be built and assembled for a specific function ? Would you like to lay down $250,000 for a new home whos Toilet waste disposal system (PVC Piping) wasnt finely tweaked on a proper drainage slant ?! Yes...a single house or multiple houses makes good sense for the requirement of fine tuning.
 
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Loudmouth

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2. You dont think a house's BluePrint design requires parameters of fine tuning regarding the way things are to be built and assembled for a specific function ?

Do you think a depression in the ground has to be fine tuned to exactly fit the shape of the water in a puddle?
 
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Paradoxum

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1. If 'God' were a personal theistic Creator/Designer/Sustainer for THIS Universe ...would you agree to that ?

I don't understand what your asking here. What am I agreeing to? That God exists just in this universe?

2. You dont think a house's BluePrint design requires parameters of fine tuning regarding the way things are to be built and assembled for a specific function ? Would you like to lay down $250,000 for a new home whos Toilet waste disposal system (PVC Piping) wasnt finely tweaked on a proper drainage slant ?! Yes...a single house or multiple houses makes good sense for the requirement of fine tuning.

What has this got to do with the fine-tuning argument though? Using the same words doesn't make it a good comparison.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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You would also need to steer clear of other logical fallacies that I commonly see in these types of debates, and logical fallacies are at least on topic in the Philosophy forum.

First, the false dichotomy. One can not prove intelligent design by falsifying evolution.

Second, argument from ignorance. This is also called the God-of-the-Gaps. Just because we don't know how something came about does not mean that it is evidence for intelligent design.

Third, argument from incredulity. Just because you can't see how something could evolve does not mean it is designed.

If you could stay away from these major logical fallacies I would be interested in participating.

1. In a micro biological system for example , if non intelligent chemical evolution cannot reasonably and objectively show it was responsible...then what other explanation is there than Intelligence being responsible for it ? Is there a third option that im not aware of then ?

2. Its not 'God of the Gaps' when something can be objectively shown to absolutely require measurable intelligence for an end product, system, or operation to exist and function properly ; its willful ignorance when people refuse to admit to an obviously intelligently designed system based on the implications thereof -- thats what 'scientific-chauvinism' means : A Designers foot must not be allowed thru the door , so, automatically rule out intelligent causes from the get-go. Have you read the amazing admission from an esteemed Evolutionist regarding this ? :

Amazing admission ----
Professor Richard Lewontin, a geneticist (and self-proclaimed Marxist), is certainly one of the world’s leaders in evolutionary biology. He wrote this very revealing comment (the italics were in the original). It illustrates the implicit philosophical bias against Genesis creation—regardless of whether or not the facts support it.
‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.​
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.​
The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that Miracles may happen.​
[but see the difference between origin and operational science—Ed.]’​
Reference

Richard Lewontin, Billions and billions of demons (review of The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan, 1997), The New York Review, p. 31, 9 January 1997
________________________________________________________

2.a. Can 'Evolution of the Gaps' explain the existence of the Presidential Faces on Mt. Rushmore since we didnt actually see them being produced (assuming you and I didnt) ? Would your statement of 'Just because you can't see how something could evolve does not mean it is designed' , still stand in this instance ?

3. Why is it 'incredulous' to conclude something was intelligently designed by ruling out blind evolution in accordance to objective scientific standards for what constitutes a design ? Perhaps its only 'incredulous' because of Ones apriori-commitment to Natural Causes when real science is supposed to be taking into account ALL forms of Causes whether intelligent or not. (?) .

Interested in debating then ? If so, review the Guideline Sticky in the Formal Debate Room , then lets set up some ground rules per the Sticky. In closing, if you decide to Debate, i will expect you to show why the examples i give : 1. Dont fall into intelligent design 2. Can be explained thru non intelligent natural processes . Afterall, id hate for you to fall into the 'Evolution of the Gaps' fallacy ! Regards.
 
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